Official SWF Tier List v8

[Luco]

You're talking about the universal chaingrabs? Or does marth have like fthrow fthrow or something lol

It worked for me with marth when I tried air release to CG but it could be a few frames out and I just didn't notice, a bit like when I thought ZSS had a legit CG on Wario.

I'd test it out more but my remote's out of batteries.

 

[Dekillsage]

Marth can't air release chaingrab mk. I know zss can but it doesn't mean anything in the mu lol (imo anyways) When I skimmed the snack board apparently mk could get air released regrabed by snake but he'd have to be frame perfect and we'd get hit or something stupid(made no sense to me. probably outdated false information)

 

[Luco]

Marth can't air release chaingrab mk. I know zss can but it doesn't mean anything in the mu lol (imo anyways) When I skimmed the snack board apparently mk could get air released regrabed by snake but he'd have to be frame perfect and we'd get hit or something stupid(made no sense to me. probably outdated false information)

Wouldn't Snake get a free DACUS out of that?

And i've heard ZSS uses the CG for free damage and to get MK to the ledge, which is nice for her because she can pressure people on the ledge very well.

Or stuff?

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS DOES have a guaranteed regrab on Wario, it's just hard cause you have to be nearly frame perfect and buffering it causes the grab to come out too early, and if you miss then you get uaired/fsmashed/ftilted/farted on.

The ZSS air release CG definitely matters in the MK MU, cause the pummels she gets out of it boosts her kill power in the MU quite a bit. eg normally uair is stale so it won't kill til about 150 or 160, but getting a grab near, say, one edge of FD, you can get in 9 or close to 9 pummels + damage from a throw (this is at least 20%) and now all your other moves are fresh. Oh and surprise surprise, fresh uair kills MK at 138% on FD and it happens to be guaranteed out of air release, how convenient.
Also the ability to refresh your moves so easily as a result of the CG means that ZSS doesn't really have to worry about bair getting stale in this MU.

And then there's also the little things like taking advantage of walkoffs (Delfino now a riskier CP for MK), getting an CG across the moving platform on SV --> dsmash (very gimmicky I know), and air release into walls --> dsmash.

All in all it doesn't matter much cause ZSS' grab is still butt so it's hard to grab in the first place, but each grab makes quite a difference thanks to the ARCG

 

[Seagull Joe]

also gets a guaranteed re-grab. Though, she can kill at like 80.

 

[Shaya]

It's amazing how good MK is considering how bad and crippling all his flaws actually honest to god really are.

 

[Dekillsage]

Maybe if his flaws really mattered.

snip

It's amazing how good MK is considering how bad and crippling all his flaws actually honest to god really are.

Lol'd

 

[Espy Rose]

Flaws and MK in the same sentence.
Rofl.

 

[Luco]

When I skimmed the snack board...

Mmm, tasty.

But as I was saying before, wouldn't Snake get a free DACUS out of his release Dekillsage?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's amazing how good MK is considering how bad and crippling all his flaws actually honest to god really are.

It's amazing how hard to try to sound intelligent.

 

[Dekillsage]

Mmm, tasty.

But as I was saying before, wouldn't Snake get a free DACUS out of his release Dekillsage?

You get a dash attack but unless MK is at like dash attack kill % it's pretty much worthless v-v

 

[Shaya]

It's amazing how hard to try to sound intelligent.

It sure is.

 

[Luco]

You get a dash attack but unless MK is at like dash attack kill % it's pretty much worthless v-v

Free damage then? I dunnoooooo... :o

I thought Snake's Dash attack was good because it actually killed at like 150 or somewhere there?

EDIT: Hold up. I think we're looking at fresh/stale DA here, seeing as Snake would use it a decent amount. So yea, probably a staled Dash Attack would be pretty silly, except for maybe free damage.

 

[Dekillsage]

Free damage then? I dunnoooooo... :o

I thought Snake's Dash attack was good because it actually killed at like 150 or somewhere there?

EDIT: Hold up. I think we're looking at fresh/stale DA here, seeing as Snake would use it a decent amount. So yea, probably a staled Dash Attack would be pretty silly, except for maybe free damage.

Down throw is just a much better option. If it isn't going to kill there's really no point since the positioning after landing dash attack as snake means nothing v-v

 

[da K.I.D.]

All of metaknight 'flaws' only come into play after you beat him in the neutral, which no character can do reliably.

 

[Tesh]

^pretty much this

bowser and falcon can chaingrab him, but it amounts to almost nothing in the matchup. Bowser would be lucky to ever get a grab vs an mk that was really trying to avoid it

if more of the good characters could cg him, it might be worth something, but marth is the only decent character that can get something useful out of the release.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS can grab release->grab, uair, dash attack, second hit fair. I dunno how that isn't useful.´

Oh yeah, zss' grab. Welp.

 

[DeLux]

Vids or it didn't happen

 

[BlueXenon]

All of metaknight 'flaws' only come into play after you beat him in the neutral, which no character can do reliably.

What are metaknight's flaws? The only flaws I can think of are kill power and having a hard time landing. But his offstage abilities compensate for lack of kill power. And he has 4 special moves (he can land on platforms and the ledge after doing a special move to be safe), 6 jumps, a glide, and his transcendent aerials to escape his opponent's juggling attempts. I think metaknight should be able to reach the ledge most of the time when he doesn't want to risk getting juggled.

 

[Dekillsage]

What kill power Mk lacks (which he doesn't) he makes up for by chasing you with everythinggg #ShuttleLoop #nair #uairuairuair #nado

 

[ぱみゅ]

Transcendent aerials aren't that important though.
And being on the ledge (and having to come back) is another risk for MK though against an opponent that knows what they are doing.

And as a random side note about that, it really cracks me up that, when theorycrafting, people say "MK just waits for opponents to mess up and recover safely", but assume any MK will play flawless.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

What are metaknight's flaws? The only flaws I can think of are kill power and having a hard time landing. But his offstage abilities compensate for lack of kill power. And he has 4 special moves (he can land on platforms and the ledge after doing a special move to be safe), 6 jumps, a glide, and his transcendent aerials to escape his opponent's juggling attempts. I think metaknight should be able to reach the ledge most of the time when he doesn't want to risk getting juggled.

Me-Metaknight s-suffers from ... a SEVERE inability to... to end his o-opponents sto- BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'm sorry, I couldn't finish that sentence with a straight face

Anyway, more serious now


MK is light, so he dies early, although he has very good momentum cancelling to try and counteract that. As mentioned previously, his Air Grab Release animation is awful and allows him to be severely punished by a lot of characters, such as Marth (Nair, Fair, Dair, Dash Attack, Usmash?, Dolphin Slash maybe?), Falco (BDacus), Snake (Dacus, Dash Attack), ZSS (Regrab), and a lot of other characters that I don't feel like going into.

 

[BlueXenon]

such as Marth (Nair, Fair, Dair, Dash Attack, Usmash?, Dolphin Slash maybe?), Falco (BDacus), Snake (Dacus, Dash Attack), ZSS (Regrab), and a lot of other characters that I don't feel like going into.

I've never seen a marth usmash mk out of grab release, is this from a platform grab release? I've been hit by grab release to dolphin slash by marth before.
I know yoshi can grab release him across the stage or usmash, and sheik can grab release to usmash too.

 

[Death Arcana]

why are you all talking like any of this actually matters when
it was just stated earlier that in actual play it is hardly effective

 

[Z'zgashi]

Bowser can full stage cg MK and then finish with Klaw. Bowser > MK.

 

[Luco]

^pretty much this

bowser and falcon can chaingrab him, but it amounts to almost nothing in the matchup. Bowser would be lucky to ever get a grab vs an mk that was really trying to avoid

In defense, I doubt most MKs would be seriously as worried about the grab to be actively avoiding it, at least until this happened once. When does Bowser kill MK with a Fair because from my testing at least he gets a free Fair (plus other stuff) from aerial GR...?

 

[Aidebit]

I've never seen a marth usmash mk out of grab release, is this from a platform grab release? I've been hit by grab release to dolphin slash by marth before.
I know yoshi can grab release him across the stage or usmash, and sheik can grab release to usmash too.

Upsmash isn't guaranteed. Dolphin slash is.

 

[smashkng]

MK has a poor horizontal aerial speed outside gliding and Tornado as well. Gliding has some start-up, you can only glide attack out of it (can't air dodge out of it) and if you cancel there is cooldown in the air. Tornado also has some start-up and it puts MK in special fall afterwards. Moves that beat Tornado can easily interrupt it while you use it defensively. Plus MK's fast fall is only about average. Imagine how MK's Uair would have been if he had Link's fast fall... FF air dodges into the ground would then not work quite as well against MK's rain of Uairs. And also thank god of MK's poor air speed because otherwise it would be hard to find a way of ever getting back to the ground against him (his poor air speed makes it easier for characters to get back to the ground by moving away from Meta Knight). If MK had both a very quick fast fall and good air speed, then he may have been "broken".

And yeah MK having trascendent aerials can be a problem. Can't throw out a Fair and interrupt a Pikmin or an armor piece like Marth can. It can be a problem against projectile characters. Zero himself said that Tornado is the only thing MK has that beats Olimar.

 

[Dekillsage]

Ftilt? lol Wait wut since when could mk not hit pikmin with fair? That's news to me lol

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

And yeah MK having trascendent aerials can be a problem.

first world problems

 

[xDD-Master]

first world problems

This whole thread is first world problems to begin with.

 

[smashkng]

Trascendent is both good and bad I'd say. Actually I'm not 100% sure about the Pikmin thing. When fighting against MK it's a good thing because it allows you to easier beat Tornado and it's also a good thing to have on invincible moves (like MK's GSL and Marth's DS, as they then always beat moves and never can clash to cancel invincibility like you can do against Bowser's Up b). What I however know is that Marth can slash through them with Fair and neutralise them that way even if it touches his hurtbox at the same frame as the Fair hitting the Pikmin, while I guess MK's Fair trades with Pikmins if they touch his hurtbox at the same frame as hitting the Pikmin? Pretty sure it's a reason why Peach does well against Olimar too.

And about the GR thing against MK, Marth has Fair, Dash attack, Nair, (Uair?), Dair, DS and DB. He also can do following things on MK at 0% Fthrow x2 to hyphen smash for 29%, Fthrow x2 to tipper Fsmash for 27% damage, Fthrow x2 Nair and, but useless Fthrow stuff. All of this things can also be done with 1 fthrow until about 3-4% damage.

 

[Shaya]

Real version:
^ Marth is so broken.

Politically correct version:
^ Nuh uh, Marth can't do any of those things. Or if he can, MK can never get grabbed by anyone, ever.

Espy version:
^ MK still destroys Marth though.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Can Marth hit MK with RAR Bair out of AGR?

 

[smashkng]

RAR is too slow. Our dash is like 17 frames (can't RAR until the dash becomes a run), jump is 5 or 6 frames and Bair first hits on frame 7. If we assume that our jump is 5 frames, then the RAR should be 17+5+7 frames= 29 frames, which is way too slow.

 

[Tesh]

Trascendent is both good and bad I'd say. Actually I'm not 100% sure about the Pikmin thing. When fighting against MK it's a good thing because it allows you to easier beat Tornado and it's also a good thing to have on invincible moves (like MK's GSL and Marth's DS, as they then always beat moves and never can clash to cancel invincibility like you can do against Bowser's Up b). What I however know is that Marth can slash through them with Fair and neutralise them that way even if it touches his hurtbox at the same frame as the Fair hitting the Pikmin, while I guess MK's Fair trades with Pikmins if they touch his hurtbox at the same frame as hitting the Pikmin? Pretty sure it's a reason why Peach does well against Olimar too.

And about the GR thing against MK, Marth has Fair, Dash attack, Nair, (Uair?), Dair, DS and DB. He also can do following things on MK at 0% Fthrow x2 to hyphen smash for 29%, Fthrow x2 to tipper Fsmash for 27% damage, Fthrow x2 Nair and, but useless Fthrow stuff. All of this things can also be done with 1 fthrow until about 3-4% damage.

there is pretty much nothing good about transcendent aerials, though its rare for this attribute to even matter in the air. most of the good projectiles in the game are items that can be easily caught when you have the fastest aerial in the game (most of these items are harmful against normal aerials anyway like bananas, grenades). pikmin have hurtboxes which mean they will still be blocked by any attack. almost all of the projectiles that reliably go through his aerials are so bad that even trying to throw it at him guarantees he can nado through it an hit you.

0-29 isnt very impressive. everyone has reliable grab combos that go from 0-20 or 0-40 easily marth has pretty awful throws.

 

[smashkng]

At least MK often gets offstage after that Usmash and because it's 2 hitboxes hitting at the same time, neither DI nor SDI works. The Marth can know exactly where MK will be after that Usmash. Fthrow tipper Fsmash also can get MK offstage and can be DI'd but not SDI'd. MK gets sent really far backwards, usually enough to get the MK offstage. Marth is one of the few capable of edge guarding MK, not gimping but being able to put a ton of damage on MK when he's offstage. In that MU MK isn't really safe on the ledge at all IMO. 0-29 % damage + good spot for Marth is really good against MK considering that MK also is very light. He dies to Dsmash at around 110% and around 100% when tippered.

 

[Dekillsage]

Well then I hope you Marth players aren't agreeing to smashville game 1.
Also MK is safe on the ledge, but getting back on stage is harder vs marth which is probably what you meant. A good trait to have until you get shuttle looped

 

[smashkng]

Tesh if you think that Marth's throws are awful then you don't know **** about Marth. Stop seeing Marth's throws individually and start thinking of what Marth can do after the throws and who has the positional advantage afterwards.
Marth can definitely pressure MK on the ledge. Dtilt does a really good job with that when spaced correctly, it's a move with very little amount of cooldown. MK is one of the harder characters to ledge trap of course but it certainly is possible to do, especially with the reaction time of Mikeneko. If Marth can't stop MK's planking then no character can. And you have to get back onstage one day, while the moment MK does attempt to get off the stage Marth can relatively (not super easily, but somewhat) easily send him back to the ledge. IDK how much range MK's ASL has but it's far from an unbeatable option when MK uses it to get back onstage. MK can try to Tornado onstage, which beats Dtilt and Fair (Fair at least most of the time) but it loses to Up b, Counter unless he moves fully forward, and Fsmash. Has to be done at close range or else Marth can react to that and Up b to send him back.

 

[Dekillsage]

Thing is your dtilt isn't hitting Mk ever even if its spaced(unless the mk player wants to get hit for w/e reason). You're better off not even going for it unless you reaallly want that extra bit of damage, at least in my opinion. Tbh its just the fact you have UpB that makes me think MK has any trouble at all getting back on. It's a good tool to have, be glad you have it

Also everything that's been said means nothing on smashville. #Don'tGoToSmashville