Official SWF Tier List v8

[smashkng]

What do you mean with meaning nothing on Smashville?

 

[Dekillsage]

Having a moving platform to recover on doesn't help when trying to "edgeguard" metaknight.

 

[Tesh]

Tesh if you think that Marth's throws are awful then you don't know **** about Marth. Stop seeing Marth's throws individually and start thinking of what Marth can do after the throws and who has the positional advantage afterwards.
Marth can definitely pressure MK on the ledge. Dtilt does a really good job with that when spaced correctly, it's a move with very little amount of cooldown. MK is one of the harder characters to ledge trap of course but it certainly is possible to do, especially with the reaction time of Mikeneko. If Marth can't stop MK's planking then no character can. And you have to get back onstage one day, while the moment MK does attempt to get off the stage Marth can relatively (not super easily, but somewhat) easily send him back to the ledge. IDK how much range MK's ASL has but it's far from an unbeatable option when MK uses it to get back onstage. MK can try to Tornado onstage, which beats Dtilt and Fair (Fair at least most of the time) but it loses to Up b, Counter unless he moves fully forward, and Fsmash. Has to be done at close range or else Marth can react to that and Up b to send him back.

alot of throws do 2-3 times the damage and set up for things better

What do you mean with meaning nothing on Smashville?

when the platform is above the ledge, he can use his specials to reach it alot faster than you can cover the option (assuming you were on the ground to cover the normal options).

definitely not as big of a deal on other stages, but platforms near the edge dont help at all

 

[Z'zgashi]

alot of throws do 2-3 times the damage and set up for things better

 

[Player-1]

Marth's fthrow does 4% damage, but is probably one of the best throws in the game for setting things up in the game

 

[Dekillsage]

when the platform is above the ledge, he can use his specials to reach it alot faster than you can cover the option (assuming you were on the ground to cover the normal options).

definitely not as big of a deal on other stages, but platforms near the edge dont help at all

Dude I forgot MK can even do that platform cancel shuttle loop garbage on smashville too!!!!
#KeepMKOffOfSmashVille

 

[pidgezero_one]

Everyone who posts after this is a flyhead of astronomical proportions

 

[Tesh]

Marth's fthrow does 4% damage, but is probably one of the best throws in the game for setting things up in the game

at best, marth will get from the throw plus follow up what other characters will get from just the throw.

after low-mid percents, you are in no immediate danger after marth throws you

 

[BlueXenon]

at best, marth will get from the throw plus follow up what other characters will get from just the throw.

after low-mid percents, you are in no immediate danger after marth throws you

Iv'e played a lot of marths on wifi and Marth has a bthrow to tipper fsmash that does like 26%. And it also puts marth is a very good position. I don't know any characters whose throws do more damage than that alone.

 

[Shaya]

after low-mid percents, you are in no immediate danger after marth throws you

This isn't true. It's more so that there's just an extraneously dumb skill cap for really getting things out of post-combo percent throws (this applies to every char in the game though).

There are a couple of things that Marth knows about an fthrown opponent.
They can't jump for a very long time.
They can't fast fall for almost half a second at least (and a majority of players won't even, at all).
A good "Inkling" of general travel direction + good execution has Marth already on top of you after an fthrow in a neutral or better situation.
i.e. They can't change where they're going once its happened.

Everyone (including players of every character) tend to just go for immediate offensive actions after throws rather than just following through for a pressured situation.

tl;dr they DI up (badly) you get any aerial you want. Otherwise you're just moving to continue to apply pressure and generally your opponent cannot do anything about it. Marth can hold forward after fthrow and start walking forward and just ... reacts.

 

[Tesh]

everyone can do that at low percents, even ganondorf can hit you with dthrow-dsmash (well only on snake), dthrow-wizkick/dash attack

low pecent combos are childs play.

marth has better ones than trying to grab, like uair-upsmash for like 40 damage

the really good throws do a bunch of damage AND set up for stuff. MK/kirby dthrow (kirby's is awesome he just ****ing sucks) sonic's upthrow is okay but the knockback growth would be garbage for low/slow jumpers

low percent stuff is easy, alot of characters can just go wild and do whatever they want for the first 0-40 because hitstun works properly before characters can tumble and thus dodge/counterattack

edit: any throw that keeps people close and let you follow and react, marth's grab game is functional, he has a fast grab and it beats shields just like it should, but its nothing special

 

[Shaya]

Marth without his good grab game would be a significantly weaker character. His merits of his grab game are pretty passive/underlying though, so it's pretty understandable for the low rating.

This is how I believe you're seeing things:
Oh, if we put Marth's throws on another character, they would be strictly worse.

How I/we see things:
There's a greater synergy between all of his throws and his horizontal/vertical dominance than other characters.
While lacking damage, the scenarios they place characters in are extremely beneficial for Marth. Other characters would likely not have the tools to follow up with Marth's grab game.
"Good" DI from one throw is free aerials from the use of another throw. They're all very quick to come out which makes reacting for proper DI from a throw very iffy.

Objective notion:
Marth's grab is a significant factor in a large portion of his match ups. Either by design/luck.

 

[Player-1]

at higher percents fthrow leads to an air born opponent which can often lead to aerial frame traps

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think its perfectly within reason to assume someone could get routine good DI on Marth's throws. For one, you can typically assume an opponent wants a stronger position by throwing you towards the ledge rather than away from it. That in itself can mean you can think ahead for what sort of DI you want. There is a human component of being typically predictable and following set routines and choices. So, after a match or two you might pick out a Marth's favorite throw in X situation.

Another thing might be to always assume DI on Marth's fastest throws and adjust DI when you see the animation for the slowest throw animation. I routinely do this against Sheik in melee or against Rob for example. Melee Sheik's throws are very slow, I do not even bother with DI and just mash buttons to get out until I see the animation and DI depending upon which one I see. With Rob, you know his Fthrow/Bthrow are very quick, so I just naturally assume DI up until I see his slow Uthrow/Dthrow animation, then adjust DI on that.

With all of those things combined again I believe one could routinely get good DI on Marth's throws.

 

[Shaya]

What if I say there's no such thing as good DI against Marth's throws if he can competently follow up?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Too subjective to try defining for my blood. Percentages, character traits, platforms, and ledges all get in the way for what the best possible DI might be. Its too case-by-case sensitive I feel.

As an example, say you DI MK's dthrow down. For a while, this will put you into a tech position, but sometimes by completely missing the tech you can slide off the stage and grab the ledge immediately (or have to jump for it at higher percents). Additionally, you could just DI straight-up. In either situation, what would be considered the best possible DI and choice follow-up. Depending upon the situation, I could see either one being ideal. Again, say you were on Delfino, RC, or Halberd. By DI down and missing the tech, you grab the ledge and could wait out the stage transformation and reclaim stage position while as the tech or DI up choice would subject you to follow-ups and lost position on the stage.

Wow. Typically, you'd think getting put on the ledge would be bad against any MK, but in the case specific stage of Delfino, it can help me get back to neutral by stalling under the stage until the flying portion is completed.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

at higher percents fthrow leads to an air born opponent which can often lead to aerial frame traps

That's a cute sentiment but not really true. Every time I see Mr. R or Leon throw anyone competent and try to airdodge read it just ends in a reset.

Marth's thow game is mediocre just like the rest of him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth's grab game is still a pretty important asset simply on account of how broken grabs are in this game by nature, minus tethers. His throws might be mediocre but overall it adds up to a pretty well balanced grab game. In a game where ICs, DDD, MK, Olimar, Snake's dthrow, Falco's dthrow and Diddy's grab set-ups via bananas exist, having a "well-balanced" grab game becomes pretty relative though. Like pretty much all of his individual traits as well as the character as a whole, Marth is pretty much on the bottom end of viability - viable, but just barely so.

I don't know why anybody would ever claim that MK beats Olimar only because of Tornado. While it might be true that good use of Tornado alone is enough to shut Olimar down, MK has other ways to do so. Anti has for all intents and purposes conquered the matchup completely and he does not use that much Tornado. MK can **** Olimar by mixing up dtilt, ftilt 1 / 2, grab and the occasional dsmash / aerial in CQC to which Olimar has no answer other than random powershield. Anti and Nairo **** Olimar that way - Rain does it with his use of Tornado. I think if some MK player manages to reconcile both approaches to the matchup then people would realize that the matchup is easily +2 for MK.

 

[da K.I.D.]

wow, at everyone here defending marths grab game.

aside from beating sheild, what can marths grab do that hitting with a fair or up air wouldnt do? every hit that anybody gets that puts people in the air is a benefit to that character. but that doesnt give marth a great grab game.

i mean, look at it compared to other characters.

lets look at characters with actual good grab games.
DDD gets a grab and he gets a guaranteed 40% from any percent and puts the character offstage. Even without down throw, pummel back throw is a guaranteed 20% and puts people in a perfect spacing to reset the whole situation. How does marths grab game function compared to that?
How about Sonic, Pummel up throw does 15% (he also has the best pummel in the game so he can do more damage easily) and puts most characters in an uncounterable position where they cant really hit sonic back for attempting to follow up with attacks after the throw. which almost forces them to put themselves in the same situation. and that doesnt stop working until about 100% (at which point it starts becoming a kill set up). how does marth grab game compare to that?

no matter what you do, youre never going to make 3% grabs with no guaranteed damage after 15% into a 'good' grab game. just like how shield breaker is never going to be a 'good' move, but both of those things get people to stop shielding against marth which is something he needs as a character. it doesnt make his grabs good, it makes them useful for him as a character. theres a difference.

 

[Shaya]

Your description of sonic sounds like Marth minus the damage. Fthrow is relevant at every percent. Marth's ability to get a grab due to a pretty good grab range + some of the best shield pressure in the game + pivot grab is what makes his grab game not half bad by any means.

Marth's grab gets him feasible kills at 0 percent on any legal stage. How does Dedede or Sonic's grab game function compared to that?

I'm having a really hard time not actually continuing an overtly sarcastic reply to the rest of your post so I'll just stop. This could be like saying I have nothing to argue but its more so a tedious trade off from spending countless posts arguing what a grab game is and how I perceive it isn't matching with yours... meh.

Marth's grab game sucks because he gets grabs, he gets follow ups, he puts people in bad situations and it gets him kills and guaranteed damage in a large portion of match ups that your character wishes they had.

 

[BSP]

@K.I.D.-I believe Lucas' pummel is a bit better than Sonic's. Same damage, but faster. Too bad he uses the rope snake.

 

[Tesh]

Your description of sonic sounds like Marth minus the damage. Fthrow is relevant at every percent. Marth's ability to get a grab due to a pretty good grab range + some of the best shield pressure in the game + pivot grab is what makes his grab game not half bad by any means.

Marth's grab gets him feasible kills at 0 percent on any legal stage. How does Dedede or Sonic's grab game function compared to that?

I'm having a really hard time not actually continuing an overtly sarcastic reply to the rest of your post so I'll just stop. This could be like saying I have nothing to argue but its more so a tedious trade off from spending countless posts arguing what a grab game is and how I perceive it isn't matching with yours... meh.

Marth's grab game sucks because he gets grabs, he gets follow ups, he puts people in bad situations and it gets him kills and guaranteed damage in a large portion of match ups that your character wishes they had.

kills at 0? is it really fair to count the stupid stuff that happens to space animals getting hit by anything near the ledge. hell toon link can backthrow to dsmash to kill spacies at 0,

 

[da K.I.D.]

Marth's grab game sucks because he gets grabs, he gets follow ups, he puts people in bad situations and it gets him kills and guaranteed damage in a large portion of match ups that your character wishes they had.

i never said marths grab game is bad, i said its average. and you are overstating its usefulness.

but i agree in that 'grab game' seems to be a very vague term that we arent really agreeing on what it means.

yes marth can get grabs, yes marth can follow up with his throws, and yes some of those follow ups can lead to kills. but what character does that not apply to? what character in this game doesnt have at least one throw that puts the opponent in a bad position afterwards? and what character cant time a kill move to catch somebodys air dodge to the ground after the aforementioned bad position scares them in to dodging?

Every character has some variation of that and most of them can do it with throws that do more than 3%

also, what tesh said.

 

[Player-1]

That's a cute sentiment but not really true. Every time I see Mr. R or Leon throw anyone competent and try to airdodge read it just ends in a reset.

Marth's thow game is mediocre just like the rest of him.

That's a cute sentiment but not really true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zbUFoSYQZSU#t=159s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_cGTyH1hp38#t=241s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zg_gkZsqG2E#t=1013s




also marth has one of the best punishing games out of air releases.

 

[Shaya]

kills at 0? is it really fair to count the stupid stuff that happens to space animals getting hit by anything near the ledge. hell toon link can backthrow to dsmash to kill spacies at 0,

Of course people respond only to the overtly facetious comment =|
But in reality though, fthrow to dair is a real combo on just about everyone. It's a pretty strong spike at 0% too, by no means "guaranteed" like on Spacies, but fast fall footstools seem to be all the rage.

 

[Gifts]

i never said marths grab game is bad, i said its average. and you are overstating its usefulness.

but i agree in that 'grab game' seems to be a very vague term that we arent really agreeing on what it means.

yes marth can get grabs, yes marth can follow up with his throws, and yes some of those follow ups can lead to kills. but what character does that not apply to? what character in this game doesnt have at least one throw that puts the opponent in a bad position afterwards? and what character cant time a kill move to catch somebodys air dodge to the ground after the aforementioned bad position scares them in to dodging?

Every character has some variation of that and most of them can do it with throws that do more than 3%

also, what tesh said.

The answer to this is that Marth just does it better than 90% of the cast.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

aside from beating sheild, what can marths grab do that hitting with a fair or up air wouldnt do?

You've answered your own question: it beats shields.

In a game where shield is such a powerful option being able to beat it is a pretty big deal. Now add the fact that a grab is the only option to consistently cover shields and it should be obvious that Marth's grab can do a couple of very important things that fair and uair can't.

 

[Dekillsage]

Grab beats shield? *MindBlown*

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I know it's hard for you to grasp but you'll understand it one day!

 

[smashkng]

At least Marth has pretty good grabs. One of the longer non-tether grabs standing grab and it being frame 6, nice speed on dash grab (it has bad range unless you dash and immediately grab, which makes it somewhat decent, either way just it being frame 9 is already better than Falco and Snake's frame 11 dash grabs) and WTH range on pivot grab. Marth is good at forcing people into shielding and he is good at abusing that too by avoiding punishment OoS with well spaced aerials. Just having nice grabs (not talking about throws) is enough to have a better grab game than many other characters. So he can set up those throws combos easier too thanks to that because of more chances to land a grab than many other characters. Maybe Toon Link does have a 0-death on spacies from a grab, but how is he going to land a grab in the first place?

 

[da K.I.D.]

hes going to combo into it from his zair...

 

[TyponV]

Marth is like Pit. Really really good.

 

[Dekillsage]

Marth having upb oos buffs the **** out of his grab #MakeADecision

 

[southpaw]

kills at 0? is it really fair to count the stupid stuff that happens to space animals getting hit by anything near the ledge. hell toon link can backthrow to dsmash to kill spacies at 0,

with correct DI not even falco dies from tl's dsmash. wolf will always make it back, and fox will too, unless were talking about only single hit dsmash and meh DI. and it would be toon links dthrow not bthrow unless toon link wants to get punished for throwing. toon link can legit only combo dthrow to dsmash at zero on fox, and as i said it prolly wont kill unless toon link continues to follow up his edgeguard amazingly. please dont say misleading things about my character that makes him seem good

 

[Espy Rose]

@K.I.D.-I believe Lucas' pummel is a bit better than Sonic's. Same damage, but faster. Too bad he uses the rope snake.

Lucas and White Pikmin grab pummels do more damage per second than Sonic's.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

at best, marth will get from the throw plus follow up what other characters will get from just the throw.

after low-mid percents, you are in no immediate danger after marth throws you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZdolHTLciY

 

[Espy Rose]

Rofl.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Doesnt Wolf have a really good pummel or is it just really fast?

 

[Espy Rose]

It's just really fast.

 

[da K.I.D.]

wolf and lucarios are the fastest but they do very little damage per hit, therefore, even though sonics and lucas' are slightly slower, they build damage faster due to doing way more damage per hit.