Official SWF Tier List v8

[Shaya]

I just recall Attila and Splice having very high opinions of Marth, and his options in different situations. To the point where it seemed fantastical for any character below SSSS-God-Uber Tier to be described like they were describing Marth lol. And I know that you were in Vic semi-recently and Billy housed you or something? So yeah, put two and two together.

Most of my losses in Vic were just cheese in retrospect, I don't feel like I should lose to anyone in Australia now, re-evaluated my mindset.

Well its because Marth can boast about all the options he has which other characters go "Oh I get hit". Even if they're risky options, they exist. Basically, he is a character who can choose to not attack and be extremely scary, like Donkey Kong and bair, but unlike DK is still generally in a good situation by swinging.

You need to be able to punish anything/everything, it's only cheese if you have 30 frame reaction speed.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It was cheese in the sense that I'd just auto-pilot match-ups that I have no experience in, and therefore lost to players that I feel like I'm smarter than + have better game knowledge than (Jei and Toshiba).

My new attitude is "Always know what the opponent will do next", and it's helped a massive amount to keep that in mind while playing instead of worrying about frame data, and risk/reward ratio of attacks, and covering multiple options - all that **** takes a backseat to being in your opponent's head and controlling momentum imo

 

[Dekillsage]

So you're basically just guessing instead of thinking now. I respect your yolo

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Sonic is good because most of what he does is safe, he never has to commit to anything, hes one of the hardest characters to react to, and he also has the ability to punish almost any mistake. He also is REALLY hard to approach if he gets a lead and has a good mix up game. I play X all the time and hes the best player in my state who got out of pools in Apex and in the past has beaten/done very well against a handful of big names, including even taking M2K to the last game of a set in grand finals of a regional (outdated, but just an example), all with Sonic. Imo Sonic is pretty well placed atm.

I really did not know that. I thought Sonic was garbage myself, thinking the only 'viable' option he has is spamming Side-B.

 

[Cassio]

Mexico is a bit underrated. Theyre likely very close in skill to Europe.

NY/NJ is the best region in the US, but theyre not comparable to Japan.

 

[Dekillsage]

Yeah we're BETTER than Japan.

 

[1PokeMastr]

What about Nietono ?

Also, I don't like how The Australian Falco plays.

Seems really.. not right.


Also Ganon for top tier, he has an infinite on everyone with Side B!

 

[FredFuchs]

What about Nietono ?

what about m2k?

 

[1PokeMastr]

What about Ally ?

 

[Dekillsage]

What about Nietono ?

Also, I don't like how The Australian Falco plays.

Seems really.. not right.


Also Ganon for top tier, he has an infinite on everyone with Side B!

Nietono stopped caring for brawl so he stopped competing with intentions of getting better apparently :'( My favorite player of 2012 for sure!

Also the falco players play might not seem right because he plays snake lol. #SnakeMainSecondaries

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He picked up Falco for the MK match-up not long ago haha

 

[Luco]

Hehe, yea everyone else got to it before I could.

I feel like Australia would get better with more exposure to different styles of play and more interested players. It's one of the reasons why Melbourne is our best region (has the most active players) and one of the reasons i'd like to get better myself.

 

[Shaya]

Melbourne sucks.

Like, I mean, our top 3 (or 4 with Scoot) are capable of all taking top 8 spots at nationals. So they aren't that much better IMO.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Allen and I are at that level too pretty sure

though we flubbed our chance to show it lol, so I can't really support that claim at all

 

[Shaya]

I need to give you a good 3 stocking.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You wish, SA is so much better than the last time you saw us

I honestly think we're the best Melee state as well. Some guys came out of retirement for a tourney a few weeks ago and were like, as good as the people I played in Melbourne. Despite having not touched the game for 3 years.

 

[Shaya]

Wish? Hell no.

It's a right of passage, and not one that has anything to do with your skill level.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Australia Social

stop condoning this off-topicness MODERATOR.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Hey so why is pikachu above ZSS and wario

 

[Z'zgashi]

Because hes yellow.

 

[Kokomaniac]

I can dig it

 

[Funkmasterblitz]

Lol this is a weird thread, people getting off topic and I think Kirby could have been C- tier but oh well.

 

[M15t3R E]

Lol this is a weird thread, people getting off topic and I think Kirby could have been C- tier but oh well.

There are a number of underrated characters but the reason why is because virtually no one plays those characters in tournament.

 

[Seagull Joe]

There are a number of underrated characters but the reason why is because virtually no one plays those characters in tournament.

They're not underrated. They just suck.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

They're not underrated. They just suck.

Its a weird trend, but sometimes all it takes is a character with a great player behind them. Not the greatest example, but I believe peach has always been underwhelming as a competitive threat in melee at the higher end along with jiggs. Whenever you saw old discussion about it it seems like Peach was never there as a threat. Its always marth, fox, sheik, falco as being the things to worry about. Then, you eventually see Mango, Hungrybox, and Armada bring in jiggs and peach back into consideration again for high end play.

So, I do wonder if there is some character who in brawl is actually quite formidable, but there has not been a great player for this character to really show you that they are a threat to consider. There might be some character with some really nice traits to be used, but there is simply no competent player backing them to really bring out all those fine points. Looking back at v1 of brawl, ICs were all the way back at 13th place. Wow. They came a long way.

As players get fundamentally better at the game you should start to see the great characters coming in. Although, I guess as of now Brawl is so old that not much is going to change. The IC example seems easily explained because all along there was the potential for grab = stock mentality, but it was never done by anyone so long ago very easily. After years of practice, you finally start to see that reliability in player skill.

 

[DeLux]

ICs are a bad example given a large majority of their success can be directly attributed to the changing stage list as compared to great players.

There have always been a consistent stream of great ICs for their time. They usually came in waves of like 2-4. Meep, lain, Hylian, Swordgard in generation 1. Recent generation of Vinnie, Esam, Nakat, Big D. That's not even mentioning international greats like Kakera/9B/Myollnir

The great players have been constant for ICs. The rulesset has been the key change. If you go back to some of the rulesset used way back in the day, ICs probably belong at 13th. On Apex rulesset, they probably belong in Top 4-7. In Japanese probably in top 2 or 3. The character may have gotten better over time, but not because of one player. It takes a steady stream of great players to be real. This has shown itself repeatedly for Brawl (see Olimar, Zero Suit Samus on a smaller scale, etc.)

Counter examples to your theory of One Great Player > Improved Character:
See: TheReflexWonder (and every other solo great player of a billion characters)
See: During the Pit Uprising Release, the trend of a billion people picked up Pit (considered borderline). He's still about as bad as he was before.
See: Snake's fall in the Tier List

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I keep hearing about the stage list being a component to their success, but I still have a hard time seeing the logic behind it. The argument I hear is that static stages are best for the Ice Climbers while more dynamic stages hamper their success. However, the most common thing in place of a best of three set with counterpick is that ICs can still play 2/3 of the matches on dynamic stages. The first match has always been played on a static stage of BF, SV, or FD. Apart from a few outliers, this is generally the case and has been the same way for ages about the first stage played. The following two stages are picked by each player one a piece. Since the beginning of brawl, its always been in the ICs favor of a 2/3 stages being static for them. I suppose that the reduced stage list might make it more of a 3/3 stages in their favor. Although, I suppose I'd have to hear what counterpicks from long ago were horrendous for the ICs compared to now with counterpicks that are bad, but not terrible like in the past.

Anyway... The idea of a great player backing a character might just not be possible anymore with how far the game progressed, but more frequent at the beginning of a games life. Again, I recall hearing from a couple people that Marth in the melee early days was also never much of a threat, but along comes Ken and shows people that this character can do stuff. From a novice standpoint, I still remember playing Brawl for the first time and thinking Snake was terrible. Come to the smashboards and see the Snake tier list ranking and thought "How is this character any good?" Then you see some matches and hear the specifics about his Utilt/Ftilt/Dthrow/Nades. I starting understanding a bit more about how you could use the character in ways I never saw myself. However, this is all a the infancy of a metagame. This far into brawl I think for any "great player behind a character" idea to work it would have to be with some really subtle refinements in how the character is played. Someone having skills at things most players have overlooked or not bothered to mess with either due to difficulty or simply not seeing its usefulness.

 

[DeLux]

I keep hearing about the stage list being a component to their success, but I still have a hard time seeing the logic behind it. The argument I hear is that static stages are best for the Ice Climbers while more dynamic stages hamper their success. However, the most common thing in place of a best of three set with counterpick is that ICs can still play 2/3 of the matches on dynamic stages. The first match has always been played on a static stage of BF, SV, or FD. Apart from a few outliers, this is generally the case and has been the same way for ages about the first stage played. The following two stages are picked by each player one a piece. Since the beginning of brawl, its always been in the ICs favor of a 2/3 stages being static for them. I suppose that the reduced stage list might make it more of a 3/3 stages in their favor. Although, I suppose I'd have to hear what counterpicks from long ago were horrendous for the ICs compared to now with counterpicks that are bad, but not terrible like in the past.

From a statistical probability standpoint, hypothetically speaking:

Let's say ICs are really good on Game 1 stage likes you say and win 65% of the time. Because of DSR, and the stage ban let's say statistically speaking they don't gain a major increase of probability of winning from their CP, so let's say it finitely stays at 65% probability of winning their CP.

From a probability standpoint on their opponent's CP:
Let's say that have a 10% chance of winning on RC/Brinstar = 46.8% probability of winning the set
Let's say that they have a 30% chance of winning on Delfino/Halberd/Frigate= 55.9% probability of winning the set
Let's say that they have a 45% chance of winning on something like PS1/Lylat= 62%

That's without changing any of the Game 1 and IC CP probabilities and only modifying the opponent's CP win rate. As evidenced by the RC/Brinstar set of data, it's very possible to be heavily favored to win two games of the set, but the auto loss makes things a crapshoot, which shows itself in reality because there were literally 0 great solo IC players for the character and they only saw success with ICs + secondary on their Opponent's CP to increase their chances of winning for only one game.

Those estimates aren't really unreasonable, but to say that the stage list doesn't have an impact ignores statistical probability. So in order for your reasoning to be correct that the stage list doesn't matter you'd have to ignore: statistical probability trends AND a direct correlation to the stagelist shrinking and ICs taking top placings in tournaments.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The very last sentence is a bit unclear to me and my view point. The major reason I see an increase success with Ice Climbers are IC players (not merely teh outliers and top players) are simply getting better with their character as time goes on. If you start out with two players that are the same, but one starts with IC and the other MK, I expect the MK player to reach a threshold level of skill and tournament success far faster than the IC player.

@Stages: That was the sort of thing regarding stages I wanted to see for awhile now. The break down of certain stages and the severity of how bad certain CPs are for ICs. I always figured that something like Castle Seige/Delfino/PS1 were almost as bad as RC or Brinstar for ICs.

 

[Z'zgashi]

We should make PS2 legal so I can Klaw Suicide for the kill and still live.

 

[DeLux]

The very last sentence is a bit unclear to me and my view point. The major reason I see an increase success with Ice Climbers are IC players (not merely teh outliers and top players) are simply getting better with their character as time goes on. If you start out with two players that are the same, but one starts with IC and the other MK, I expect the MK player to reach a threshold level of skill and tournament success far faster than the IC player.

On the contrary, there doesn't seem to be evidence to indicate that IC players have gotten better over time more so than the stage list being a primary factor. For example, retired and old Swordgard showed himself to be very relevant in the current metagame despite being more or less inactive for a year. If anything, the shrinking stage list has made IC players somewhat softer in the context that the character as a whole hasn't really had to bother developing counters to their greatest flaws (or adopting them) because people just ban their weaknesses.

IE: ICs + Secondary won Whobo - MK was banned
IE: ICs took top 2 at SKTAR and SRT - the Class 1 CP stages (RC/Brin) AND Class 2 CP Stages (FO/DP/Halberd) were banned

The community bans their weaknesses and then they complain how dumb it is to play against ICs and how good they are getting.


As far as the stages things goes, stages in themselves don't have inherent probability increasing/reducing factors to them outside of the context of a MU. So you listed Castle Siege in there as a bad stage which is true on some MUs, but it's also their best stage in some MUs. ICs are extremely strong on FD against nearly the entire cast, until a Toon Link or ROB is on the screen at which point their best stage int he MU is probably something with platforms. Generally RC/Brin are going to be bad against every character for ICs, and most but not all characters get a benefit on FO/DP/Halberd. Some characters get a benefit from the other 7 common stages at varying degrees.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

tl;dr ICs are overrated because they need broken stages to be banned in order to be good.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I remember when "broken" in the context of stages meant "random" instead of "omg lava is gay," "omg this stage interferes with my 1337ness", or "omg i hate this stage ((("

 

[da K.I.D.]

You know how obfuscating it is when people still in mid 2013 try to tell me that Rainbow cruise is bannable because of how random it is?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You know how obfuscating it is when people still in mid 2013 try to tell me that Rainbow cruise is bannable because of how random it is?

I'm actually sympathetic to the want for banning "effectively random" stages. For example, the lava in Brinstar follows a pattern, but keeping track of it is impractical and quite a lot to ask; the end result is that when the lava rises suddenly, you feel unprepared for it regardless of the fact that it is actually on a timer. People will argue this one I'm sure, and I admit the facts will be on their side, but the reason Brinstar feels so bad to play on is because no one sees it coming. It is "effectively" random.

Rainbow Cruise has zero random elements, or "effective" randomness. Like literally zero. Stage elements come and go, but they don't damage you and it follows a very, very visible predictable pattern.

 

[Kyo Kyle]

Ice Climbers 2nd? Makes sense with that cheap, unavoidable chain grab that can zero death combo and isn't banned like Meta Knight >.>

 

[Seagull Joe]

Ice Climbers 2nd? Makes sense with that cheap, unavoidable chain grab that can zero death combo and isn't banned like Meta Knight >.>

is not banned.

 

[Dekillsage]

You know how obfuscating it is when people still in mid 2013 try to tell me that Rainbow cruise is bannable because of how random it is?

Mr.Sonic main you don't know what its like to play snake and have to navigate rainbow. I can't get anywhere fast enough!!!!

Ice Climbers 2nd? Makes sense with that cheap, unavoidable chain grab that can zero death combo and isn't banned like Meta Knight >.>

aaaAAAaaa


I hope you guys here aren't comparing IC's to MK again -_^b

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@Delux: For certain dynamic stages being their weakness, I took a guess across most characters for Castle Siege being a weakness for them. But, since its brought up are the competitive relevant characters granted access to enough counterpicks choices that the drop in very damaging stages like RC/Brinstar is negligible or not? So for MK, Olimar, Diddy Kong, Marth, Snake, Falco, Pikachu, ZSS, Wario, Lucario, Toon Link, and King Dedede which of these characters are hit hardest by the lack of suitable counterpicks against ICs?

 

[Kyo Kyle]

is not banned.

Yeah I know, hahah sorry, I made mistake/typo, meant to say it's to bad, the Ice Climbers zero death chain grab, and Meta Knight himself isn't banned.

Although Meta Knight's probably more important to worry about, and more likely to get banned than the IC cheap grab, if the chance arose.