Official SWF Tier List v8

[Shaya]

If you can power shield.
You can grab items thrown at you.

It's a skill.
etc etc yada yada too impossible i dont want to improve at this game its too hard etc etc

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I s till remember Sky vs DEHF where Skye had a wheel and he did a 50% link on DEHF. It was so good. now imagine 3 wheels that hit harder, bouncier, and the character has a glide toss...


yeah.

Wario has a Glide Toss. And a pretty good one at that.

Also, how can you grab items out of a PS (the inputs, I mean)?

 

[Shaya]

I mean, if you're capable of PSing anything, you're capable of timing an aerial or air dodge or even grounded moves like jab to catch items thrown at you.

Grabbing items after PSing them is pretty good too though.

 

[SoulPech]

o.

i was referring to zss's glide toss.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I mean, Keitaro beat Salem over this past weekend, and while I haven't watched the video yet, I was under the impression that a big factor of his win was the fact that he was playing his item game far better than most people who play against Salem. I dont know about better than Salem himself but like I said, you dont have to be better than the item user with the items to not get gheyed by them.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I was under the impression that a big factor of his win was the fact that he was playing his item game far better than most people who play against Salem.

Actually, Keitaro's "use" of suit pieces was questionable to say the least. He tried to use them for his own benefit but nearly payed for it big time.

 

[1PokeMastr]

You can even just be Flaoc and reflect on reaction.
Or Jab.

Because Flaoc is above shields.

 

[Dekillsage]

If you can power shield.
You can grab items thrown at you.

It's a skill.
etc etc yada yada too impossible i dont want to improve at this game its too hard etc etc

You grabbed one good for you.
Now there's two more that were tossed at you or bouncing in your general area

oh and zss is there too throwing out moves and running circles around you because armor pieces gave her better mobility options.

No one cares about your skill with item pieces because item control isn't the problem. The problem is the pieces are a constant shell of protection(because they freaking bounce) for zss and grants her way too many mobility/offensive options. Even if you catch one she has two more to beat whatever you do with a single armor piece, and then she gets the piece you took from her back. You can't even jump to pick up and toss the piece away without risking getting punished by uair or the other pieces.

You wont beat her in the item game unless you somehow take control of 2/3 pieces and I don't see many people in the game being able to do that.

 

[Espy Rose]

Keitaro's item game wasn't any better than any of the top players vs. Salem. He just straight up outplayed him in their option selects.

I think False also beat Salem this past weekend. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[Dekillsage]

No false lost to salem this weekend. He's beaten him once in the past though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

false is falco/snake right?

also, after bouncing off your shield, can armor hit you again?

 

[infiniteV115]

He was a Snake main but then he said he was dropping Snake but he's still using Snake for some reason

I think Snake/Wario/MK/Marth is accurate

 

[NickRiddle]

false is falco/snake right?

also, after bouncing off your shield, can armor hit you again?

No. It if hits your shield it cannot hit you again.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well not really. I expect my opponents to have a reasonably good item game. But as ZSS I get practice every time I play, rather than just when I'm against someone with items or I set aside time to practice with them.

There different approaches to item play.
1) Being the character with the items
2) Being the one playing against the character with items.

There are different item plays and many are really only possible with to practice reliably with at least someone around using said item spammers.

 

[da K.I.D.]

No. It if hits your shield it cannot hit you again.

thats what i thought.

yea... It sounds to me like people would rather make excuses than get better. In all my time playing when I was active, I learned more about dealing with bananas in training mode than I did playing actual diddys. playing them gives you the practical application knowledge, sure but i feel like most of the people saying that you have to playing against diddys and Zss's constantly in order to be good at items have never actually tried just going to training mode and doing stuff.

 

[Dekillsage]

That's just one piece though

There are 2 more + Zss >_>

 

[NickRiddle]

So, you're saying armor's a problem when all 3 are near her?
Just camp. If she tosses one at your, dispose of it. Now there are two near her, and you're far away.

 

[SoulPech]

if she throws it at you, can't you side airdodge + grab the piece, then throw it offstage? I mean, it doesn't sound like a hard concept.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yes, it's of course very easy to deal with items, which is why Diddy is such a bad character

 

[Spelt]

I think False also beat Salem this past weekend. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

That is False.

 

[Sunnysunny]

if she throws it at you, can't you side airdodge + grab the piece, then throw it offstage? I mean, it doesn't sound like a hard concept.

Ahh.
I wish I could find this article...
But awhile ago a test was done with a few top level street fighter players to determine what the average reaction time of a fighting game player is.

If I remember correctly the average was somewhere around 9-12 frames reaction time.
Most characters in brawl take 6 frames to jump. (Snake's is 10 though. Lol)
And 4 frames to initiate an airdodge

If the "average reaction time" test is accurate, that comes out to a total of 19-22 frames to react to a thrown armor piece and catch it. I'm not sure how many frames it takes for one of ZSS's armor pieces to reach you from across the stage when thrown, but that seems doable.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Most ZSS will mix you up in mid range with side/neutral b's and item throws, and emphasis on MID RANGE, which would be like, max side B range or so. At that range, it probably takes roughly 10-15 frames for the piece to reach you, and shes got 3 of them, other options, and is fast. Its actually REALLY hard to deal with ZSS when she has her pieces.

 

[Luco]

Some characters are really geared towards item play because of certain traits about them that allow them to use items seriously effectively. As it happens, the characters with the items also tend to be the best with them, for instance Peach has a lot of very fast aerials after she's thrown her turnip (presumably in the air but you also have stuff on the ground) that can be used if he opponent shielded or spotdodged or got hit or even rolled. ZSS has some incredible followups on her suit pieces mainly because of her mobility and diddy has a useful glide toss with bananas that often leads in to grabs, Dsmashes or whatever else.

All that said, it's not impossible for other characters to do well with said items. My characters are generally bad with items but there are a few things - I can drop a turnip and go straight to Nair from above the opponent or throw the turnip and look for the reaction to see if I can punish or whatever else. I think that if every character looked at their strengths and weaknesses with items, it'd be a lot easier to deal with characters who have these items. I generally get destroyed in the crew battle against Khoa's diddy (i'll link you to it in a sec) but at one point I do come back and use his items against him to even things up a way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoMtw3XtcNs&list=UUDRkt_GFUrl7KTBwRw1Ky1g&index=2&t=10m26s (didn't think i'd be pulling up this so soon :o)

I know it's not the best example, I mean late in that second stock I use items to get back a bit and eventually they help me take his stock. I know he's not a fantastic diddy (by American standards, probably none of us are, is what I mean) but it's not like i'm fantastic either so bear with me.

Anyway, i'm just trying to say, I reckon you can learn a bit what your character/s is/are capable of in regards to items and should. If you feel you don't like items, then at least practice to the point where you feel you can intercept items to get them away from you. If you do, try and use them. It's what i'm trying to do. ^^

 

[da K.I.D.]

People are still embellishing.

The amount of time that ZSS can have all three pieces active while throwing her own moves at you ranges from little to none.

Again, I'm not saying that everyone in the world should have salems item game. But theres also no reason for people to feel that zss spawning with her suit right next to her is somehow an impossible situation to defend against.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

People are still embellishing.

The amount of time that ZSS can have all three pieces active while throwing her own moves at you ranges from little to none.

Again, I'm not saying that everyone in the world should have salems item game. But theres also no reason for people to feel that zss spawning with her suit right next to her is somehow an impossible situation to defend against.

Of course it isn't. People do it all the time, though, so I'm not even sure why this argument started. In game 5 of Apex grand finals, M2K had Salem's items gone before he could deal 20% damage.

 

[ShadowLink84]

But every character interaction is just this. It's only really bad when the other character does your job exponentially better.

No.
In some cases the poor matchup is a result of a character having capabilities opposite of yours.
For example, Pot in GGXXAC smashes Chipp because his offensive abilities are better than Chipp who plays similar to a rush down character.
Baiken on the other hand, beats out most of the roster because her defensive game is counter based, and so attacking her create an oppurtunity for her to Sakura you.

Its not necessarily a case of a character being better than you in every area like Marth vs MK, but can be a result of different capabilities interacting.

Generally though, the worst tends to be match ups like Marth vs MK because all of the tools you possess are held by the superior character, so you don't have anything unique or different that you can use as a possible counter.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

So then, what is Pit supposed to do? Glide away to get hit by SL? Jump away to accomplish nothing? Dair hoping MK overcommits? I'm not trying to say that nerves were absent here, just that I don't think absence of nerves would've really changed much besides maybe what happened at the ledge (although idk how Pit beats Tornado at the ledge either).

A well timed d-air or even a wave bounced arrow are way better options than air dodge.

 

[Shaya]

Generally though, the worst tends to be match ups like Marth vs MK because all of the tools you possess are held by the superior character, so you don't have anything unique or different that you can use as a possible counter.

I genuinely feel ill reading this.

 

[Luco]

I genuinely feel ill reading this.

In regards to what Shadowlink was saying, I think the pun was intended. :3

Isn't the same meant to apply to MK - Mario btw?

 

[Shaya]

Beyond that (which I caught), comparing Marth and MK's tools is very... meh. Then to compare within the match up itself is further meh. I'm not sure there is any move shared between Marth and MK that they use distinctively for the same purpose/way at all. It's quite ignorant to me, really.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoMtw3XtcNs&list=UUDRkt_GFUrl7KTBwRw1Ky1g&index=2&t=10m26s (didn't think i'd be pulling up this so soon :o)

ha, you got totally ***** in that match.

 

[Luco]

ha, you got totally ***** in that match.

I got percentage/a kill using bananas, otherwise he destroyed me yup. I actually told Khoa before our match in the crew battle that I found him very hard to deal with. That was probably a bad thing to say hey?

On the other hand, I did really well against Jei. =D

 

[Spelt]

Beyond that (which I caught), comparing Marth and MK's tools is very... meh. Then to compare within the match up itself is further meh. I'm not sure there is any move shared between Marth and MK that they use distinctively for the same purpose/way at all. It's quite ignorant to me, really.

They both have jabs, f-tilts, d-tilts, u-tilts, side-b, up-b, grab, throw, etc.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Beyond that (which I caught), comparing Marth and MK's tools is very... meh. Then to compare within the match up itself is further meh. I'm not sure there is any move shared between Marth and MK that they use distinctively for the same purpose/way at all. It's quite ignorant to me, really.

Uair for juggling

Up B OoS

 

[Shaya]

I highlight the word distinctively.

Both Marth and MK use Up-B out of shield (as theoretically does everyone else... except yoshi). Both characters (as do a lot of characters) use uair for juggling.
MK isn't fast falling an uair to land on the ground. MK's uair isn't a 180-200 degree arc.
Over all, it's pretty obvious MK's Up-air and Up-B are superior to Marths, but that doesn't mean one is universally better in every scenario.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Marths up b is better in the invincibility department. Allows him to punish things like peach's aerials on shield unlike most characters. Marth for +4 vs peach.

 

[smashkng]

Peach can still shield Marth's Up b after a Fair on block if she Fairs right before landing. It's just that Marth's up b wins if Peach decides to do any attack after including jab.

 

[Nicole]

im going to make a post in a moment. i hear people are slandering my good name in here but i didnt read through all the pages yet. i cant wait to though.

just kidding, fujin mostly trolled me and you guys didnt actually say hardly anything bad about me. which is a shame. i think this game would be more alive if there was more drama. it makes the community more interested in everything about the game. or else we just degenerate into a sad sad state of internet posters and legends that no longer practice and the game and all hype for the game just dies...sad.

BUT I WILL SAY:
it's funny that yall bring me up as a "win" when I haven't played seriously since I got 2nd at Siis5. I havent practiced regularly, with the intention of getting good, for about 2 years now. mostly because there aren't enough people to play with cause no one cares about this game enough anymore. i had fun being drunk in brackets at my last tournament, much more fun that I've had at any other tournament in at least 2 years. i dont think i will ever care enough again to actually try, so unless you're referring to years ago, i hardly count as anything amazing anymore.

And to my dear haters, I'm not even going to take the effort to quote you betches, you know what you said...

dark.pch you actually gave me a slight compliment but then instantly took it back by being salty about me being better than you and saying that i lose to ripple, lol, in what like 2010? I've never lost to him in bracket. Or in our 100$ teams match. Or in pools. So yeah. its ok though, i would reference videos of my pathetic loss from 2010 that were recorded in my old apartment in columbia too. still, you put me on the list of influential peaches..I'm...I'm tearing up T.T

tesh, who the f are you and who have you ever beaten? lol don't tell me I didnt beat good people. go beat krystedez and logic and then tell me I dont have any notable wins. hell go 1 and 2 with nairo, i took a game from him and that's more than most of you can ever say. or maybe go MM esam and win, idk? can you beat seagull's wolf? lol doubt it, but i did. have you beaten lie in a MM? probably not, i hear he's pretty good. I wont even mention all my teams victories and ALL THE MONEY I'VE MADE. yeah i fkn suck now but when i actually cared about the game and actually practiced don't tell me my wins don't matter, cause you dont and have never had wins that mattered EVER, because i dont even know who the fk you are, you silly internet warrior.

you all are welcome, i will be back if there is any drama because I LOVE IT AND IT NOURISHES MY SOUUUULLLLLLLLL. im ready for the images of salt and all the u mad bros you can throw out, this is just to spice things up for yall what can i say, i like to be helpful.

(**** sonic yoshi and either form of samus)

((fujin youre welcome))

 

[infiniteV115]

What's wrong with ZSS I thought she was pretty cool

 

[Tesh]

dang, i dont remember the context in which i mentioned it, but i'm pretty sure i was just pointing out that the tournament u got 2nd at was not stacked and that the high points in your career dont compare to espy or illmatic. I'm sure you'd be reasonable enough to agree that you got 2nd at a large tournament, but not a stacked tournament. I was also pointing out that peach is still bad in those matchups even though you beat those players.

so try not to take too much offense. for the discussion that was at hand, dark peach should not have used you to support his outlandish claims about peach being better than sonic. beating wolf and wario is probably the only thing we can award to peach from all of this.

unfortunately, its impossible to argue with dark peach and no reasonable person wants to argue about it anymore so i guess the conversation is over for now.