Official SWF Tier List v8

[Deleted member 189823]

Snake, DDD, MK, Puff, Flaoc.

At least the ones that are the top of my head, which took like 10 seconds to come up with.

Though after thinking about it, you can add Toon Link's and Zelda's on there to sub a couple of them out.

MK's U-Tilt sucks. You might as well list Marth's which has way better range and power.
Also, Fox's should defenitely be thrown in there. It's way better than Falco's for it's damage and speed.

 

[SoulPech]

the only metric I used was kill potential, like how early they can kill and how much priority it has. Marth's can hit, but it may only kill if it tips. though Ike's can be good if he sets it up w/ a jab.

 

[FourStar]

More people bit than I thought.

But, perhaps more properly this time.
Top

High

Mid



Low

I honestly think lucario and toon link are still better than dedede. but that's as far is it goes. dedede is just too slow

 

[Z'zgashi]

I'm fairly certain that just means he got 3 more matches and that is it. Not 3 to 5 maybe more...

No, youre wrong. Go look at a bracket and count, or even just think of it in your head. 17th > 13th > 9th > 7th is 3 changes, plus you have to at least be sent to loser's bracket at some point which is another loss added on. Thats at least 4, I was just trying to be generous with the numbers so people didnt wig out and I wouldnt have to explain my reasoning. Luckily though, KID did that part for me (and far better than I could have) so ty KID <3

Using the example that was given above, the difference between 7th and 17th place is 4 matches, which is actually a pretty large gap.

^ This is exactly what I was trying to say the whole time lol.



ALSO, best utilt belongs to 64 Kirby, no contest:

 

[Delta-cod]

No, youre wrong. Go look at a bracket and count, or even just think of it in your head. 17th > 13th > 9th > 7th is 3 changes, plus you have to at least be sent to loser's bracket at some point which is another loss added on. Thats at least 4, I was just trying to be generous with the numbers so people didnt wig out and I wouldnt have to explain my reasoning. Luckily though, KID did that part for me (and far better than I could have) so ty KID <3

Can't you just go from 17th > 9th through a single winner's bracket win? I'm only interested in counting set wins, since I don't think losses really help a case for viability. So it depends on how the bracket progressed, but 17th > 7th is 2-3 set wins, depending on if you started in loser's or not.

 

[Z'zgashi]

17th > 9th > Still 9th (Lose and get sent to losers) > 7th > Still 7th (lose in loser's bracket)

Thats 4 bro.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

the only metric I used was kill potential, like how early they can kill and how much priority it has. Marth's can hit, but it may only kill if it tips. though Ike's can be good if he sets it up w/ a jab.

Oh, I see.
I don't think MK's U-Tilt is very good, honestly...it's actually comparable to Bowser's when they both have the same startup (8 frames) and don't hit horizontally very well (apparently MK's U-Tilt kills 110% only when tipped, and that's vertical). Bowser's only hits up and then in the back, but it kills significantly well, *almost* as much as Snake's and DDD's and around as powerful as Zelda (which has relatively decent range, 9-frame startup and a very nice D-Tilt setup to achieve it).
Reguarding Marth...it's actually very funny. I've read that the back of the hit hits the hardest, the front being the weakest. His tip doesn't kill very well to be honest.

 

[Shaya]

the only metric I used was kill potential, like how early they can kill and how much priority it has. Marth's can hit, but it may only kill if it tips. though Ike's can be good if he sets it up w/ a jab.

You don't know much about Marth. Up Tilt tippers kill later than non-tippers.

Kill potential only is a pretty awful (singularly) criteria for top moves.

I would place the top two Utilts in the game as Snakes and Fox'. I think Dedede's has obnoxious properties, but... I just don't feel it (and I'm a dedede sympathiser for the most part).

 

[Z'zgashi]

 

[Shaya]

That's smash 64....

 

[Delta-cod]

17th > 9th > Still 9th (Lose and get sent to losers) > 7th > Still 7th (lose in loser's bracket)

Thats 4 bro.

Did I not just say I was counting wins.

That's 2 wins.

 

[Z'zgashi]

@Shaya: Way to point out the obvious Sherlock.

@Delta: Then minus the two loses from there, AND the two loses from Raptor, and now what, Raptor won like, 2 games total the whole tournament total while Will won like, 4-5?

SO I JUST FOUND THE BRACKET!! Turns out they both had a Bye Round 1, so Raptor only won ONE GAME THE WHOLE TOURNAMENT losing to 17th place Doom and 13th place False, while Will won 3 games losing to 5th place M2K and 5th place Jband. IT KEEPS GETTING EVEN WORSE EVERY TIME I LOOK DEEPER.

IN FACT, TO ADD TO THAT, Raptor only beat some guy named Mr. Watch and Learn (who even is that?) and Will beat Pelca AND Keitaro (and Lucifer, the god damned Devil himself lost to none other than the Broccoli Kong). Lmao.

 

[Delta-cod]

I don't recall arguing that Will wasn't doing better than Raptor.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lmao. Well, Ive had my laugh for the day, Im done with this topic. I honestly have no idea why it was brought up in the first place or what your posting of results had ANYTHING to do with... Well, anything really, so I guess Im done... xD

 

[Jabejazz]

I honestly think lucario and toon link are still better than dedede. dedede is just too slow

Also, BBR Tier List General Discussion : Where competitive players learn how brackets work

 

[da K.I.D.]

yea, you guys are really missing deltas point.

on a large scale the difference in viability between DK and yoshi based on tournament results seems to be nominal at best.

Yoshi has at least a couple good players in a number of areas placing well with him. The only good DK is Will and given his level as a player, hes really not doing any better than where one would assume that a player as good as him playing Yoshi would place.

I think that was the main point of what delta was trying to get at. not dealing with semantics of exactly how much better than raptor will is.

EDIT: why is Z'z even responding to delta when he freely admits he has no idea what delta was trying to get across to begin with?

 

[Delta-cod]

Someone gets it. Thank you, KID.

 

[Z'zgashi]

K so now I see what Delta is trying to get at, but I thought I already answered that EXACT THING in my VERY FIRST RESPONSE to his post:

Just because Raptor places decently while not being the best =/= if he was better he'd do just as good, or better than Will. All Im seeing if 'what if' or 'he can do better' and not seeing any results.

What I was saying, is that just because you THINK that in those comparisons a Yoshi could possibly do as good as Will if said Yoshi was at a certain skill level, does not mean it actually CAN happen. No Yoshi player has shown to be of that skill level and has done anything close enough result wise.

Im literally just saying that Id like to see some sort of evidence that shows Yoshi can be played at that level and achieve those results instead of just hearing theories and hypotheticals.

 

[smashkng]

@SoulPech
A lot of Marth's moves are very easy to tip with (especially aerials like Fair and Uair) if you have good enough spacing skill though. Of course it's harder with moves like Fsmash and DB 4 but still, moves like aerials are very easy to tip with as Marth. And Marth's untippered back part of Utilt has a pretty large amount of knockback, it's not much weaker than Snake's Utilt. The front hit also kills decently, but not as early as the back part. Marth in general doesn't have a hard time landing kill moves cause bad positions for the opponent makes it relatively easy to land one on them as Marth and Marth can put someone in a bad spot very easily (he just needs to get them to the air, offstage or to the ledge, which can be set up with almost anything including throws). Marth's front Dsmash is another move that has pretty high knockback even when untippered (kills only like 5% later) and so is his Usmash, although Dsmash kills earlier. A funny thing is that Marth's Dsmash at close range has more knockback than an untippered Fsmash.

 

[Dekillsage]

It not being that much weaker than snake utilt = snake utilt with 1 stale point?(I'ma just call it that)
That's decent enough.

Best utilts imo are
Snake, Diddy Kong, Zss, Kirby, Otherrrrrr

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What do you think are the top 5 (in order) Up Tilts in the game?

1) Snake. Most practical Utilt to kill with due to its horizontal range and power. Comes out frame 5 or 6. Hitbox lasts awhile and gets up very high. Huge disjoint to boot.
2) Peach. Biggest disjointed Utilt of all time.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/d/d3/PeachSSBBUTilt.png
3) Fox. Great launcher at any percent. Speedy in duration and somewhat long hitbox duration. Leads into itself relatively well on characters.
4) DDD. Great KO potential. Intangible head much? Speedy in duration.
5) Pikachu

I am quiet sure Snake gets best Utilt. Fairly certain about next top three, but not their order. The last slot no other characters really stick out as unique. TL, DK, Lucario, Pikachu, Bowser, etc. all have the same sort of Utilt with the arc above the head with varying properties I am too lazy to look up.

 

[Delta-cod]

K so now I see what Delta is trying to get at, but I thought I already answered that EXACT THING in my VERY FIRST RESPONSE to his post:



What I was saying, is that just because you THINK that in those comparisons a Yoshi could possibly do as good as Will if said Yoshi was at a certain skill level, does not mean it actually CAN happen. No Yoshi player has shown to be of that skill level and has done anything close enough result wise.

Im literally just saying that Id like to see some sort of evidence that shows Yoshi can be played at that level and achieve those results instead of just hearing theories and hypotheticals.

I'd again like to point out MX's results, as well as my own back when I consistently competed. I don't think I was far from Will back when I was consistently active, but I'd have to go dig up my old results.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I feel like ZSS's up tilt is only seen as good because her up air is ridiculous.

EDIT: I was also going to say I also recall Delta placing relatively even to Will during the time that he was active.

 

[smashkng]

It's not Marth's best move, but it's still a good Utilt. It has a very nice vertical hitbox and can be used well to cover landing options at times (like attacking me at front and air dodging into my back). It's also fast start-up wise (6 frames). An estimate kill % of back Utilt should be around 10% later than Snake's. Snake's Utilt is already really ****ing strong. Marth doesn't have the best Utilt, (nothing comes close to Snake's Utilt), but it's still decent/good. I usually don't use it much at low %s because it doesn't chain into itself and it has pretty low knockback at low %s. Overall I'd call it around mid tier. It's good but far from amazing. Kirby doesn't have a top tier Utilt IMO, Fox's is much better. I'd also certainly say that ROB has a better Utilt than Kirby just like MK does have a better Utilt. Not too sure if to call Diddy's top tier. It has great speed but not much disjoint and doesn't kill until very high percents.

BTW DDD's Utilt hits on frames 7-15 and his entire hurtbox invincible on frames 7 and 8. It's a good Utilt but it's hard to say if it really is top tier or not, it has a good vertical hitbox but little horizontal range. From what it seems there are lots of good/ok Utilts but very few amazing ones.

 

[Delta-cod]

Are we comparing Utilts in a vacuum, or in conjunction with the character's ability to use it as a whole? DDD's got a solid utilt, but I don't think it's particularly great due to his low mobility with which to trap people with it.

 

[Espy Rose]

Yeah. Imagine Sonic with that utilt.

 

[FredFuchs]

Did people forget about Ike's u tilt? iirc, Ike also has a good u tilt.

 

[infiniteV115]

I feel like ZSS's up tilt is only seen as good because her up air is ridiculous.

That has nothing to do with it XD
It's frame 3 (making it a great OoS option), has huge horizontal and vertical range, does 12% and true combos out of dash attack after ~30% on the entire cast, except for Kirby.
You can also frame trap with it on your opponent's landing, if you fall with them (below them) and do something like uair/back hit nair (they airdodge this) --> you land --> you utilt them.

It has its risks, ie being unsafe on hit at very low %s (like 5% and below) and very unsafe on shield/whiff, but when used properly it's great.

As for my top 5 utilt list,
Snake, Fox, Pikachu, ZSS .... there are a few others with some really good ones that all kinda do the same thing (Diddy, Lucario, Kirby, Mario, Luigi, Puff all combo well at low %s...though Diddy's also kills) and then there's also DK's (good landing mixup, quick and good damage), DDD's is pretty good...Bowser's and Squirtle's are also good...I'll say 5th is Diddy's

@Delta, I'm assuming the latter.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

V115, uptilt is never unsafe. You can always shield after using it, before the dude can hit you, even at 0%. If they hit you, they get up tilted again, or sometimes dtilt.

Only unsafe against inhale, air grabs, etc.

 

[infiniteV115]

I thought Flaoc got a free dair if you utilted him at 0%

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No, you can shield it to my knowledge.

Dont get me wrong, Ive been hit by that **** too, but I always want to hit myself because I know it was my fault, lol

Also (double post big whoop wanna fight about it) Pit and Sheik both have good uptilts. They aren't the best, but they're fast and have really cool, niche uses.

 

[NickRiddle]

It's unsafe at 0.
It's unsafe until about 10.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's unsafe at 0.
It's unsafe until about 10.

I am almost positive you are wrong. to the laboratory!

EDIT: I also think you're overrating utilt a bit, zss' utilt that is, all of you, in general. It's fast, but laggy as **** and risky. It combos from and into stuff, but ftilt does too and that doesn't make ftilt good. I think KID is right, utilt is good because ZSS' other moves interact with it well, not because it's especially great on its own.

Top 10 sure, probably not top 5.

 

[PK Gaming]

Still wondering why people care about the changes below "viable" tier. It's just noise, lol.

 

[Delta-cod]

Because some people like to make sure a job is well done, and not half assed.

 

[Cassio]

So then, what is Pit supposed to do? Glide away to get hit by SL? Jump away to accomplish nothing? Dair hoping MK overcommits? I'm not trying to say that nerves were absent here, just that I don't think absence of nerves would've really changed much besides maybe what happened at the ledge (although idk how Pit beats Tornado at the ledge either).

Well I think its more the fact that he chose the same option 12 times in a row (literally). Perhaps MK can answer individual options, but he cant cover all options at once, and even some of the worst characters can edgeguard a pit that chooses to react the same way 12 times. The rest of the match didnt look so bad.

My personal opinion is that pit is fairly good an maybe a bit underrated, but I understand why peeps dont think to highly of him as well.

Edit: regarding utilts, keep in mind DDD's utilt is pretty....bad against small characters. And thats pretty much half the good characters. No ground hitbox

 

[Seagull Joe]

MK's U-Tilt sucks. You might as well list Marth's which has way better range and power.
Also, Fox's should defenitely be thrown in there. It's way better than Falco's for it's damage and speed.

's hits only above him. 's entire body is a hitbox when he uses his Utilt and it reliably kills early. 's is far better loool.

 

[Shaya]

's hits only above him. 's entire body is a hitbox when he uses his Utilt and it reliably kills early. 's is far better loool.

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. No.

 

[Dekillsage]

Mk's utilt is better lol

 

[Deleted member 189823]

IN FACT, TO ADD TO THAT, Raptor only beat some guy named Mr. Watch and Learn (who even is that?) and Will beat Pelca AND Keitaro (and Lucifer, the god damned Devil himself lost to none other than the Broccoli Kong). Lmao.

Oh gawd those names are killing me. Xd

Also Ike's U-Tilt is only really viable if you're opponent is SDI-ing towards you and/or upwards. It has a silly startup lag (13 frames), but it's alright, I guess.

I still think MK's U-Tilt sucks unless tippered. KO'ing at 120~% isn't "killing early" at all.