Official SWF Tier List v8

[Espy Rose]

Why not both?

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi, if not above DK, should at least be moved up into the same tier as him.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Why not both?

alright I guess a better question would be what do you think mid tier should look like?

 

[B0NK]

Yoshi, if not above DK, should at least be moved up into the same tier as him.

How about we move DK down to the same tier as Yoshi?

 

[Delta-cod]

Because DK and Yoshi both better match the viability of the characters in DK's current tier than with PT.

Honestly, I find Kirby, Ike, Sheik, Sonic, DK, and Yoshi to all be pretty difficult to order well.

 

[Dekillsage]

Yeah but DK has punch!!!! It kills snake at like 60% how?!?!!!!!

 

[B0NK]

Proof:

 

[1PokeMastr]

9 Wind kills at 55% or so, but it's completely an impractical kill move since you need a hard read to land it.
It being frame 25 and all.

Full Charge is better because of the SA frames anyway.
9 Wind isn't a viable kill move.

Edit: That was Stale too - but the sweet spot - Completely luck, he reversed it for a hard read on a roll, not spot dodge.

 

[B0NK]

Nope it kills Snake at 60%. How?!?!

 

[Seagull Joe]

is so much better then . How is this even an argument? What results does have that come even remotely close to Will ( sole metagame)?

 

[Dekillsage]

Nope it kills Snake at 60%. How?!?!

I don't understand!!!!

 

[1PokeMastr]

Snake is a teapot.

 

[Z'zgashi]

is so much better then . How is this even an argument? What results does have that come even remotely close to Will ( sole metagame)?

^ This. DK is definitely better than Yoshi. Not by a ton, but by a noticeable margin.

 

[SoulJoker]

--Ignore what was here--

 

[Delta-cod]

is so much better then . How is this even an argument? What results does have that come even remotely close to Will ( sole metagame)?

MX recently won a tournament using predominately Yoshi. (inb4 "Yeah but it wasn't 100% Yoshi so obv invalidated cuz DK wins tournaments by himself all the time).

Looking through relatively recent results for the NJ/NY area:

Crossfire II, 9/45. http://smashboards.com/threads/crossfire-ii-80-people-in-attendence.336544/ (Raptor got 13/45)
Petopia, 9/25. http://smashboards.com/threads/petopia-results-april-27th-2013.336032/ (Raptor got 17/25)
Crosfire, 7/38. http://smashboards.com/threads/anti-the-dul0r-presents-crossfire-results.335000/ (Raptor got 17/38).

Now, I love Raptor, but I don't think it's fair to say that he's a player on the same level as Will. And if you accept that, then these differences in placing can be attributed more to player skill than character viability.

 

[Death Arcana]

nah he's good
yoshi holds him back

 

[Z'zgashi]

^ This. And why are you linking to results of a DK out placing Yoshi, sometimes by 10 spots even, while arguing Yoshi is better? Even if Will > Raptor (which I think is true) that doesnt mean anything. Just because Raptor places decently while not being the best =/= if he was better he'd do just as good, or better than Will. All Im seeing if 'what if' or 'he can do better' and not seeing any results. I ****ing main Yoshi and think he has the ability to rise, but even I think you're crazy to think Yoshi deserves to be above DK. There is absolutely NO logical reason to put Yoshi over DK right now. None.

 

[Delta-cod]

I was actually just looking for results on Will, and saw that Raptor had been at those same tournaments and listed Raptor's placings for reference, to avoid people accusing me of ignoring the fact that Will is outplacing Raptor.

I could look for some of my results, but they're, in my opinion, a little too old at this point to actually be convincing, because time restrictions are pretty strict around here for the most part.

I don't follow MX's results since I find MW results harder to track than NJ/NY results (maybe because it's not my native region), but I know for a fact that he'd been doing solid work before he retired. But then people will just bring up "lolMidwest".

Also, the difference between 17th and 7th is not 10 spots. Maybe through subtraction, but it's actually only what, one winner's bracket win away? Two loser's sets? It's not as large a gap as you'd think.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Let's get back to this.

Pit is so unbelievably free against MK. I mean, most characters are, but this character really can't do it, despite looking passable on paper. The first stock in this video a decent example of what should be happening every time Pit is either offstage, forced to the ledge, or put in a position to be juggled. It's ridiculous.

Yass had a good Pit too btw, but iirc that was quite a while ago.

Yeah, the Pit player should just air dodge like an idiot into MK's moves. Bad example. Earth was probably just nervouse. It happens to everyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z9CyEvg_BQ

 

[Z'zgashi]

17 - 7 = 10. I didnt say 10 sets, I said 10 spots... Why does it matter how many games it is, it doesnt change the fact that its 10 spots lol. I wasnt saying that it was X amount of games, I only said 10 spots.

And why argue against something when you have no evidence then? If theres absolutely nothing that logically says Yoshi > DK, then why even take that stance? I mean, its one thing to believe and try to prove Yoshi > DK by trying to get better results and do work, but you have to at least acknowledge that DK definitely deserves to be higher atm.

 

[Delta-cod]

My point was that 10 spots is actually an insignificant number in this case. Measuring the distance in terms of spots makes the gap seem larger than it actually is, since it's only 1 or 2 set wins.

I'm arguing because I also don't believe DK has any evidence to show that he's significantly more viable (at least enough to be in a different tier) than Yoshi.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Its a big enough difference to be in the money in some cases, then not even top 16. And considering there were only 38 entrants, thats 25% higher, an entire quarter of the entrants higher placement wise.

And if you dont think DK has any evidence to show hes more viable, than show the evidence that Yoshi has to show hes any more viable, cuz right now all Im seeing is DK > Yoshi 4 out of 4 times.

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah, the Pit player should just air dodge like an idiot into MK's moves. Bad example. Earth was probably just nervouse. It happens to everyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z9CyEvg_BQ

So then, what is Pit supposed to do? Glide away to get hit by SL? Jump away to accomplish nothing? Dair hoping MK overcommits? I'm not trying to say that nerves were absent here, just that I don't think absence of nerves would've really changed much besides maybe what happened at the ledge (although idk how Pit beats Tornado at the ledge either).

 

[B0NK]

Nah it was a bad example, clearly that Pit doesn't know the MK match-up

 

[Delta-cod]

Its a big enough difference to be in the money in some cases, then not even top 16. And considering there were only 38 entrants, thats 25% higher, an entire quarter of the entrants higher placement wise.

And if you dont think DK has any evidence to show hes more viable, than show the evidence that Yoshi has to show hes any more viable, cuz right now all Im seeing is DK > Yoshi 4 out of 4 times.

Obviously the difference between 7th and 1st place is major. But outside of things including the top 8, a 10 spot difference is practically meaningless. Hell, a 16 spot difference, from 33rd to 17th, is just a difference of one set, which can be decided for characters of DK's/Yoshi's caliber by bracket luck (running into a bad MU, for example). The disparity only gets worse the further down in rankings you get.

25% of 38 is less than 10 people, lol. I still don't understand what point you're trying to make here. My initial reaction to this percentage is: "And...?"

I had conceded in my original post that Yoshi should at least be in the same tier as DK. Again, the separation there is the thing that most puts me off, not the distinct ordering, since (also as I had originally posted) I believe about half of that tier group is really, really hard to order.

Also, learn to count, I only posted 3 results, lol.

 

[Luco]

i got so lost reading the last two pages...

My advice is to learn when people are messing around with ya buddy. You sometimes take things a little too literally, which would end up getting you seriously confused here.

That kinda summarizes what should happen to every character when they're being pressured by Meta Knight.

After traveling to Australia's Meta Knight state (Victoria), i'm surprised at how little aerial mobility MK has in the air outside of his specials. And depending on you both are, they can be weirdly unsafe for him. I tended to recover mid height and could always tell if he was going to get to me before I got back on stage. The only issue was when they were actually physically on stage waiting for me. Yea Dsmash after Dsmash after Dsmash isn't fun when you're trying to get back with my char. =(

 

[Z'zgashi]

Obviously the difference between 7th and 1st place is major. But outside of things including the top 8, a 10 spot difference is practically meaningless. Hell, a 16 spot difference, from 33rd to 17th, is just a difference of one set, which can be decided for characters of DK's/Yoshi's caliber by bracket luck (running into a bad MU, for example). The disparity only gets worse the further down in rankings you get.

25% of 38 is less than 10 people, lol. I still don't understand what point you're trying to make here. My initial reaction to this percentage is: "And...?"

I had conceded in my original post that Yoshi should at least be in the same tier as DK. Again, the separation there is the thing that most puts me off, not the distinct ordering, since (also as I had originally posted) I believe about half of that tier group is really, really hard to order.

Also, learn to count, I only posted 3 results, lol.

Lol, I was rounding on the 25% of 38 thing (its 9.5, round that to get rid of a decimal and you get 10). And as for the 4 of 4, you got me there, my counting skills are too good.

And as for being in the same tier as DK, he already is... lol.

 

[Luco]

And as for being in the same tier as DK, he already is... lol.

I was gonna point this out myself.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Has Delta-cod spent all this time arguing for something that's already happened?

Condensed version:
SS: Meta Knight
S: Ice Climbers
A+: Olimar, Diddy Kong
A-: Marth, Snake, Falco
B: Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Wario
C+: Lucario, King Dedede, Toon Link
C: Wolf, Fox, Mr. Game & Watch, Pit
C-: R.O.B., Peach
D: Kirby, Donkey Kong, Sonic, Ike, Sheilda, Sheik, Ness, Yoshi
E: Luigi, Pokémon Trainer, Lucas
F: Mario, Samus, Bowser, Captain Falcon, Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganondorf

HOLY **** HE HAS!

 

[Delta-cod]

I've been discussing this list the whole time, guys. I generally don't have much to say about the official list, except for the whole thing with the ICs.

More people bit than I thought.

But, perhaps more properly this time.
Top

High

Mid



Low

I had figured the context to be obvious, but I guess with the flip in pages, that was not the case.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Why would you discuss such a bad list?

 

[pidgezero_one]

The difference between 17th and 7th is 3 spots. Logarithms, people.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Fine, 3 spots. That means Raptor got 3, 4, maybe 5 matches played while Will got 3 matches further in, possibly even more with Loser's bracket. So basically Will got to play most likely around double to a third more matches than Raptor did.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Fine, 3 spots. That means Raptor got 3, 4, maybe 5 matches played while Will got 3 matches further in, possibly even more with Loser's bracket. So basically Will got to play most likely around double to a third more matches than Raptor did.

I'm fairly certain that just means he got 3 more matches and that is it. Not 3 to 5 maybe more...

 

[Delta-cod]

Why would you discuss such a bad list?

Because I'm bored, like most people in this thread probably are.

Not like the official list is amazing anyways.

 

[Shaya]

What do you think are the top 5 (in order) Up Tilts in the game?

 

[SoulPech]

Snake, DDD, MK, Puff, Flaoc.

At least the ones that are the top of my head, which took like 10 seconds to come up with.

Though after thinking about it, you can add Toon Link's and Zelda's on there to sub a couple of them out.

 

[pidgezero_one]

kirby's utilt tho

 

[1PokeMastr]

In order of best to worst.

Zss, Snake, Dk, DDD, C.Falcon.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Wow, some of you guys need to educate yourself on bracket threory.

Luckily, your friendly neighborhood KID is here and bored at work to give you lames a lesson.

Ill use a small easy to understand number of sixteen in this demonstration.
When dealing with a double elimination bracket, after the first 2 matches, 25% of the entire pool of entrants (4 people) has been knocked out. Which means a quarter of every bracket ties for last place.

This means that the farther you go down in bracket/placings, the greater the number of people you will have that are tied at that position.

After that first round, half of everyone in the tournament is in losers (8 people). Those people in the winners side (8 people) and the losers' side (also 8) all play each other. half of the people in the losers side (4 people) are knocked out and half of the people in the winners side (4 people) are moved to the losers side.
At that point, the number of people who have won in winners and losers are the same (4), but since the people who lost on the winners side are moved over to the losers side, losers bracket now has twice as many people (4 who won in losers + 4 who lost in winners= 8) in it in as the winners side (just the 4 who won in the round of 8). So, to keep up so to speak, the losers side, has to play another round and eliminate 4 more people to keep up with the winners side which is already at 4 because more people keep getting added to it (the losers side).

So for every round on the winners side that gets played, 2 matches have to be played in losers to have the same amount of progression. Aside from the obvious, thats another reason people try not to lose early in bracket. After one gets put in losers, they now have to play twice the amount of matches But since the losers side contain the elimination matches, those rounds determine where each ones placing ultimately is.

At the top of the bracket you have 2 people in winners finals and 2 people in losers semis. From that point on each round only has one person being eliminated. Which is why 1st through 4th are single, no-tie placings. Past that, there are multiple people being eliminated in each round of losers (2 people in 5th and 7th, 4 people in 9th and 13th, 8 people in 17th and 25th and so on.)

So, when determining the differences in placing, the numbers themselves are of little consequence, seeing as the difference between 7th/9th place and the difference between 33rd/49th place is the same. One losers bracket match.

Using the example that was given above, the difference between 7th and 17th place is 4 spot/positions, which is actually a pretty large gap.