Official SWF Tier List v8

[Z'zgashi]

You know what, nevermind, I dont want to be a part of this conversation anymore. Based off that time I tried to give my opinion on Mario's viability on Facebook and all, its not worth trying to argue this with you, youre just going to keep throwing out the 'creativity' and 'hidden potential' cards and Im not going to even bother. They're all bull**** reasons that have no ground or backing and everyone knows it, no point trying to beat a dead horse.

Im out, peace.

 

[Karaoke Man]

You know what, nevermind, I dont want to be a part of this conversation anymore. Based off that time I tried to give my opinion on Mario's viability on Facebook and all, its not worth trying to argue this with you, youre just going to keep throwing out the 'creativity' and 'hidden potential' cards and Im not going to even bother. They're all bull**** reasons that have no ground or backing and everyone knows it, no point trying to beat a dead horse.

Im out, peace.

They're only "bull**** reasons" because you haven't even tried them for yourself, and between then and now, I bet that you still haven't. Of course, If you have, don't let me speak too soon.

Dude, I have never disrespected your opinions or your right to have one, but you have to understand that I've got mine as well. All I'm doing is encouraging people to try something new. and I know that didn't suddenly become a horrible thing to do in the last 5 minutes. Much of the other options and stuff are fine, but if certain characters are going to move up the tier list, it has to be more in the way that everybody took tthe time to learn what makes all the other characters good as well. For those that care enough anyway.

 

[Dagon97]

Ivysaur might have a booty recovery sure, but that doesn't brand him as a bad character, neither should be the case for Charizard.
There are ways to make them work. And it's through the use of creativity

For example, Link's recovery is also buns. But if you are carrying a bomb for at least 1 1/2 seconds before getting hit offstage, while you are falling, you can Z-drop + rising Fair (or w/e aerial that's not Uair or Dair) to make it back to the stage. Even IF you get edgehogged, the point of that is to stall the bomb long enough to explode. Which in turn further increasing your chance of survival. Something I came up with that works 90% of the time.

Same creative aspect can be done for Ivysaur and Charizard and any character in general, in just about any game.
Granted, yeah any character in general is "bad" when all of their tools and attributes aren't used to their fullest potential. Much like how most players say Mario is bad for example, but then completley forget that the 3 different tools he has (Fireball, Cape, F.L.U.D.D) have several different uses. Especially when they are put together. I may not know eeeeeverything about Charizard yet, but trust that there is a way around his weakness' just like any other character.

Wanna be a PT main? And use you' 're creativity?

 

[Man Li Gi]

They're only "bull**** reasons" because you haven't even tried them for yourself, and between then and now, I bet that you still haven't. Of course, If you have, don't let me speak too soon.

Dude, I have never disrespected your opinions or your right to have one, but you have to understand that I've got mine as well. All I'm doing is encouraging people to try something new. and I know that didn't suddenly become a horrible thing to do in the last 5 minutes. Much of the other options and stuff are fine, but if certain characters are going to move up the tier list, it has to be more in the way that everybody took tthe time to learn what makes all the other characters good as well. For those that care enough anyway.

You're calling everyone who thinks the way they do about characters as uncreative or non imaginative while you put up extremely optimistic views on characters while acknowledging only a few of the weaknesses or being flat out wrong with your analysis. Instead of arguing out here on the SB, go and prove your worth since you're so creative and imaginative.

You have likely seen Jigglypuff's approach with Fair's instead of zoning with Bair's because that is what most of the Brawl Jiggly's do. If that's the case, then I'm not surprised people think Jiggly is free even though here Bair is disjointed, has longer reach, and has less cooldown.

Where's Grim Tuesday when you him/her? Anyway, you don't know what Jiggs I watch or what I even do in the first place. Since the days of Melee, Bair has been used primarily to space out opponents while Fair was reserved for offstage kills and the same holds true for Brawl.

Like I said, just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean that it can't happen. I've seen an Ike time out a D3 before....at Apex.

.......Your point is? I'm pretty sure I've seen a good deal of things too. I don't get shocked or feel anything when I see timeouts since they're timeouts.

I'm glad you find it funny, because I'm also laughing at the fact that you are not coming up with any new ideas and would rather wait for somebody else come onto your boards and do the conceptualizing for you before you even attempt to do it for yourself.

This is everyone's board, not mine buddy. Your "conceptualizing" is probably the same thinking Sakurai had for character choices, but for reasons stated, didn't pan out pal. Keep your statements coming as they're really entertaining, friend.

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

I really hope this is an appropriate place to post this but seeing as he's his own character in smash 4 i've been dying of curiosity

Without stamina or the other 2 partners, would charizard move up or down the tier list? How much? Why?

Thanks for taking the time to answer this

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well there's a lot more that goes into it than just that, but its definitely a major weakness of his in Brawl that's being removed. It will still depend on the changes to his moveset and how he matches up with the new characters/options and thats incredibly hard, or even impossible to predict. As Charizard is definitely not a defensive character and is more of a mid range rush down character, the main thing Charizard really lacks is a good way to close ground and safely force himself into the opponent or poke at them from mid range. Right now, his only viable tool for doing that is the late hit from his tail of nair, which takes way to long to work for it being practically his only option. He has a decent jab and dtilt (theyre both fast and have long range, but they arent safe) and his ftilt is quite good, but slow, so what he really needs are safe options to either pressure shield with (for example maube jab/dtilt buffs), or more mobility options to take advantage of his nair and ftilt's ability to control the mid range space. Also, adding reliability to moves like his fair, up b, and side b are very much needed as all 3 of those moves are almost completely useless at a competitive level. And speaking of up b, for a character with wings, that move is really awful, not just as an offensive more, but for recovery as well. Add in his slow air speed, awful glide, and only 2 Kirby height jumps, his recovery is surprisingly quite terrible and easily gimped, so unless thats looked at he'll still have that weakness. He does have a new down b (or maybe its a new side b, I dont remember) with Flare Blitz, and it looks like it might help with his recovery issue and MAYBE his approach options, but regardless he still either needs higher jumps, more jumps, or much better air speed, otherwise he's still going to have the recovery issues he's always had.

There are a lot of other options, and they could possible give him a total revamp or something as well, but those are just some of my opinions on what he needs to be improved. As for actual viability, its not even worth trying to tell right now since we have almost zero gameplay footage or anything of him, and even then it's not the final product. Also, MAJOR important things that go into competitive viability are things like frame data, hitboxes, hitstun, knockback, etc, and those are all things that are VERY hard to judge or understand without actually physically playing the game. So as for now, the best thing to do is just hope for buffs in the right areas and in time we'll see how much they help him.

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

Well there's a lot more that goes into it than just that, but its definitely a major weakness of his in Brawl that's being removed. It will still depend on the changes to his moveset and how he matches up with the new characters/options and thats incredibly hard, or even impossible to predict. As Charizard is definitely not a defensive character and is more of a mid range rush down character, the main thing Charizard really lacks is a good way to close ground and safely force himself into the opponent or poke at them from mid range. Right now, his only viable tool for doing that is the late hit from his tail of nair, which takes way to long to work for it being practically his only option. He has a decent jab and dtilt (theyre both fast and have long range, but they arent safe) and his ftilt is quite good, but slow, so what he really needs are safe options to either pressure shield with (for example maube jab/dtilt buffs), or more mobility options to take advantage of his nair and ftilt's ability to control the mid range space. Also, adding reliability to moves like his fair, up b, and side b are very much needed as all 3 of those moves are almost completely useless at a competitive level. And speaking of up b, for a character with wings, that move is really awful, not just as an offensive more, but for recovery as well. Add in his slow air speed, awful glide, and only 2 Kirby height jumps, his recovery is surprisingly quite terrible and easily gimped, so unless thats looked at he'll still have that weakness. He does have a new down b (or maybe its a new side b, I dont remember) with Flare Blitz, and it looks like it might help with his recovery issue and MAYBE his approach options, but regardless he still either needs higher jumps, more jumps, or much better air speed, otherwise he's still going to have the recovery issues he's always had.

There are a lot of other options, and they could possible give him a total revamp or something as well, but those are just some of my opinions on what he needs to be improved. As for actual viability, its not even worth trying to tell right now since we have almost zero gameplay footage or anything of him, and even then it's not the final product. Also, MAJOR important things that go into competitive viability are things like frame data, hitboxes, hitstun, knockback, etc, and those are all things that are VERY hard to judge or understand without actually physically playing the game. So as for now, the best thing to do is just hope for buffs in the right areas and in time we'll see how much they help him.

Thank you! This is really well thought out.

I'm not asking anyone to predict the Zard's success in smash 4, I just want to know how he would do in the current brawl meta minus the PT limitations

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well minus those limitations in Brawl, he honestly wouldnt be much better. Zard still has high damage output and high knockback, so he can still get those kills and rack up damage, albeit a bit slower, while he's fatigued, so it affects him less than the other two Pokemon. It would still most definitely help him out and would be a very welcome buff, but it wouldn't improve on any of his major weak points.

 

[Dagon97]

Why is shiek so low on the trier list if I can well in locals with him?

 

[TheGoldMan]

Why is shiek so low on the trier list if I can well in locals with him?

That all depends on how well your opponents are and what type of matchup you're in.

 

[NickRiddle]

I missed talk about Ivysaur being good?
That makes me sad. Ivysaur is terrible.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Why is shiek so low on the trier list if I can well in locals with him?

Sheik cant kill. She also lacks defensive options in a very defensive game. Cant go into specifics though cuz honestly I dont know much about Sheik.

 

[Karaoke Man]

You're calling everyone who thinks the way they do about characters as uncreative or non imaginative while you put up extremely optimistic views on characters while acknowledging only a few of the weaknesses or being flat out wrong with your analysis. Instead of arguing out here on the SB, go and prove your worth since you're so creative and imaginative.


Where's Grim Tuesday when you him/her? Anyway, you don't know what Jiggs I watch or what I even do in the first place. Since the days of Melee, Bair has been used primarily to space out opponents while Fair was reserved for offstage kills and the same holds true for Brawl.

.......Your point is? I'm pretty sure I've seen a good deal of things too. I don't get shocked or feel anything when I see timeouts since they're timeouts.


This is everyone's board, not mine buddy. Your "conceptualizing" is probably the same thinking Sakurai had for character choices, but for reasons stated, didn't pan out pal. Keep your statements coming as they're really entertaining, friend.

I never once said, nor implied that anyone was not imaginative or uncreative. I was saying that people aren't using their creativity as much as they probably could. I mean, of course when you play a "bad" character, you have to acknowledge their weakness', but you should always acknowledge their strengths too. I'm being optimistic not only because I'm initially looking at their strengths, but also because nobody else is. You cannot honestly tell me I'm wrong in my analysis when you probably haven't even researched a lick of what I'm talking about, especially when I even said I don't know everything about Charizard yet. Keep in mind I've already "proven my worth" with just alone . My area is basically a Brawl farmland now, so unless you have an Abra that can teleport me halfway across the country for active tournament scenes, I'm gonna' continue to encourage people through the other means I'm able to use. Whether you like it or not, is not my problem.

I was saying that most of the Brawl Jiggly's don't use it that way hardly ever. The few that do/did don't even really play anymore.

Admittedly, when I first replied to your earlier comment, I misinterpreted what you meant by "stalling", so my bad on that. but again, my point was just saying that things like that are possible. Regardless of the character doing it.

I meant character boards. Lol, of course it'd be tough to pan out if he's the ONLY one coming up with new concepts or ideas.

Like, I'm not even trying to be rude or anything, but when people only state things from what a character can't do, it turns people off from playing that character because of a more negative perception of it. Are they right? Absolutely. Does that automatically make a character non-viable in tournament? Of course not, because again, those same characters have strengths too. For example; despite being a heavyweight, Charizard actually has the the 7th fastest dash speed and the second longest non-tether grab range in the game.

The reason why a lot of these characters are "bad" is because people are looking at it from a perspective of what a character's moveset and statistics does, and much less of what you can do with those options. I'm definitely not saying Ivysaur or Charizard is a Grade-A character, but they certainly shouldn't be slept on by any means.

and tbh, the only other reason they are low on the tier list is because of a lack of representation. As it's largely based on tournament results. No representation=no results.

So yes, I'm optimistic about what they can do by working around their weaknesses. Because as far as I'm concerned, all I'm hearing is a lot of pessimism of how so and so can't do this and that cause' of said limitations, yet nobody is doing the research to try to push things ahead. Then you wonder why the overall metagame basically stays stagnant.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Sheik cant kill. She also lacks defensive options in a very defensive game. Cant go into specifics though cuz honestly I dont know much about Sheik.

That's okay. No one knows shiek except other tourney level shiek players.
So like.
3-5 people. Ha!

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I know Sheik!

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I know Sheik!

Do you?

Do you really?

 

[Man Li Gi]

I never once said, nor implied that anyone was not imaginative or uncreative. I was saying that people aren't using their creativity as much as they probably could. I mean, of course when you play a "bad" character, you have to acknowledge their weakness', but you should always acknowledge their strengths too. I'm being optimistic not only because I'm initially looking at their strengths, but also because nobody else is. You cannot honestly tell me I'm wrong in my analysis when you probably haven't even researched a lick of what I'm talking about, especially when I even said I don't know everything about Charizard yet. Keep in mind I've already "proven my worth" with just alone . My area is basically a Brawl farmland now, so unless you have an Abra that can teleport me halfway across the country for active tournament scenes, I'm gonna' continue to encourage people through the other means I'm able to use. Whether you like it or not, is not my problem.

I was saying that most of the Brawl Jiggly's don't use it that way hardly ever. The few that do/did don't even really play anymore.

Admittedly, when I first replied to your earlier comment, I misinterpreted what you meant by "stalling", so my bad on that. but again, my point was just saying that things like that are possible. Regardless of the character doing it.

I meant character boards. Lol, of course it'd be tough to pan out if he's the ONLY one coming up with new concepts or ideas.

Like, I'm not even trying to be rude or anything, but when people only state things from what a character can't do, it turns people off from playing that character because of a more negative perception of it. Are they right? Absolutely. Does that automatically make a character non-viable in tournament? Of course not, because again, those same characters have strengths too. For example; despite being a heavyweight, Charizard actually has the the 7th fastest dash speed and the second longest non-tether grab range in the game.

The reason why a lot of these characters are "bad" is because people are looking at it from a perspective of what a character's moveset and statistics does, and much less of what you can do with those options. I'm definitely not saying Ivysaur or Charizard is a Grade-A character, but they certainly shouldn't be slept on by any means.

and tbh, the only other reason they are low on the tier list is because of a lack of representation. As it's largely based on tournament results. No representation=no results.

So yes, I'm optimistic about what they can do by working around their weaknesses. Because as far as I'm concerned, all I'm hearing is a lot of pessimism of how so and so can't do this and that cause' of said limitations, yet nobody is doing the research to try to push things ahead. Then you wonder why the overall metagame basically stays stagnant.

People claiming that X character(s) s what motivated me to pick my main and secondaries. You must understand how tiers work. They are based off what characters can't do, not what they can do, but what they can't do. For instance . Kirby has multiple jumps, a transcendent projectile, a command grab that can lead to sacrificial KOs, a strong juggle and grapple game, yet is mid tier. Why? The fact it has just 2 reliable KO moves, can be punished for a lot of its gimmicks, has trouble breaking camp games, can be rushed down easy;etc.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Do you?

Do you really?

I do! I promise!

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I do! I promise!

Are you sure?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Are you sure?

Yup! I mean.... I'm Ed. Gotta know my character to be Ed lol.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Yup! I mean.... I'm Ed. Gotta know my character to be Ed lol.

Alright then prove it, what's the frame window for a Platform Cancelled Wavebounced Chain DACUS?

 

[Dagon97]

It's just me, scary and some guy from my area gg lake

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Alright then prove it, what's the frame window for a Platform Cancelled Wavebounced Chain DACUS?

LOLWUT
trick question, doesn't exist :D

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

LOLWUT
trick question, doesn't exist :D

I guess someone doesn't know as much about Sheik as they claimed then

I'll give you an easier one

On what frame does a Buffered Shield Drop Dash Attack Cancelled Needle come out?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Hmmmmmmmm......."thinks these questions refer to something like PM turbo or something"

5!

I feel like we shouldn't spam up the already spammed up thread.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Hmmmmmmmm......."thinks these questions refer to something like PM turbo or something"

What!? This is a Brawl thread! Why would I waste time on PM Turbo questions?

I feel like we shouldn't spam up the already spammed up thread.

Spam? These are important questions being used to gauge your Sheik knowledge!!

 

[#HBC | Scary]

But the things you refer to don't exist.......

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Just because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

But.....they really don't exist. Sheik is just a bread and butter character who has the highest execution in the game bar none.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Highest execution bar none? I don't think so. Have you ever tried Wario's Triple Jump Cancelled Rising Bike comboing into Waft?

What about Olimar's Pikmin Pluck Cancelled Falling Up Smash?

Or Jigglypuff's B Reversed Rest Cancelled Retreating Forward Smash?

All of those are harder to do than anything Shiek has. I'm starting to think you might not even play this game...

 

[Thor]

I never once said, nor implied that anyone was not imaginative or uncreative. I was saying that people aren't using their creativity as much as they probably could. I mean, of course when you play a "bad" character, you have to acknowledge their weakness', but you should always acknowledge their strengths too. I'm being optimistic not only because I'm initially looking at their strengths, but also because nobody else is. You cannot honestly tell me I'm wrong in my analysis when you probably haven't even researched a lick of what I'm talking about, especially when I even said I don't know everything about Charizard yet. Keep in mind I've already "proven my worth" with just alone . My area is basically a Brawl farmland now, so unless you have an Abra that can teleport me halfway across the country for active tournament scenes, I'm gonna' continue to encourage people through the other means I'm able to use. Whether you like it or not, is not my problem.

Creativity? The game's been out like 6 years or something... you think people are just so uncreative they fail to come up with ways to use a character for 6 years? And also characters who don't have any extreme/unique stats that set them apart? Ivysaur is slow, somewhat frail, and laggy, so comparing it to Melee Puff/Yoshi doesn't work (who are relatively low lag and have extreme properites (air speed, parry, dj armor and dj cancel) that made them unique. And we already acknowledge they have some strengths (Ganon does, it's called high knockback throughout his moveset) but they have so many crippling flaws that they are overall not viable. Being creative doesn't cover up a character's limitations... actually Gimpyfish had this kind of good video about acknowledging that no character is perfect, I wish I knew what it was called so I could post a link here.

And Jigglysir, your trolling is starting to get old again... or is Ed aware of how you operate on here? I'm curious though, as to why Sheik is such a high execution character - I think the DACUS has to be frame perfect inputs (and a modified control setup), but is there something more?

 

[mimgrim]

Well there is the ridiculous amount of memorization you have to do with Sheik and her Ftilt.

But that's all I know about.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ftilt is ezy mode, it's not that hard to do after you figure the timing out

I feel like Sheik is a good character.

Why is she bad again? Someone remind me.

 

[mimgrim]

She can't kill worth crap?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

And Jigglysir, your trolling is starting to get old again... or is Ed aware of how you operate on here?

How dare you accuse me of trolling, I find that very offensive. btw I heard you're getting a sex change. congrats man, doing something like that while in the public eye takes some real balls (literally)

Ftilt is ezy mode, it's not that hard to do after you figure the timing out

I feel like Sheik is a good character.

Why is she bad again? Someone remind me.

She isn't bad, other characters are just better.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

When I say highest execution, I should've ask with respect to the mental fitness needed to play her.

Just on Ftilt alone, you need to know your decay, character position within the Ftilt and spacing. She is all about knowing every decay of all your moves at the moment so you can know what strings you really have access to.

 

[Thor]

How dare you accuse me of trolling, I find that very offensive. btw I heard you're getting a sex change. congrats man, doing something like that while in the public eye takes some real balls (literally)

Well I'm not getting a sex change, it's actually more like the whole Beta Ray Bill thing, except this person is a woman.

Ed, your description of ftilt sounds sort of like Pikachu trying to CG Dedede - except you have to do that for every character. Thanks for the explanation.

EDIT: Also, for the why "Why isn't Sheik good?" questions, this may not be the full reason, but it certainly doesn't help... (go to 4:25 in the video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v8Myoltijo

I assume Ed already knows this, but @ Dagon97 might not and it wouldn't have hurt Z'zgashi to mention this earlier, so I'll do so now.

 

[Ghostbone]

When I say highest execution, I should've ask with respect to the mental fitness needed to play her.

Just on Ftilt alone, you need to know your decay, character position within the Ftilt and spacing. She is all about knowing every decay of all your moves at the moment so you can know what strings you really have access to.

Every character in the game needs to keep track of their stale moves to know what strings/kill moves they have access to.
That's not some sheik specific thing at all, you're just super biased, lol.

 

[Shaya]

Ghostbone, please.
It most definitely contributes very very heavily to Sheik, who otherwise just gets hit/punished out of every combo she attempts and isn't the type of character who can afford to trade with anyone.

She isn't a superb character, her greatest strength comes from the combo/lock ability of forward tilt. If the difference between getting 80% and a kill move off and just 1 tilt into a clashing neutral air/fair is literally just whether or not you used or didn't use ftilt or another move earlier, it means a hella ****ing lot.

Everyone else get's their free 0%ish grab combos. Sheik doesn't. Most characters who worry about decay may lose out on maybe 1 extra hit or 1 extra grab if they start it at an awkward percent/with things not decayed or over decayed, Sheik literally gets close to nothing in the same situation in her context.

 

[Luco]

I would argue a more midway position. Sheik to me seems to be heavily reliant on strings and combos at specifics percentages that themselves are reliant on the relative freshness/staleness of moves, so in that sense I could see her as being very technical in that regard. That said, I feel like some other characters, such as Marth (maybe tipper makes this less of an issue), Pit, Squirtle and possibly Sonic and Yoshi need to be very careful in using many of their moves so that they can get the kill at critical points. Hell, i'd say many characters that lack kill options (especially the lower tiers) have to be very careful in this regard (I know i'll sometimes facepalm at wasting my Bthrow early on Ness for whatever reason, though Ness doesn't really suffer as much because he has a few reliable kill moves anyway).

But I do agree that Sheik is probably one of the most important characters in terms of the management of stale/fresh moves.