Official SWF Tier List v8

[infiniteV115]

Wolf is even with Marth and IC apparently. Anyway, I don't see that many Marths, but it could be just I don't really look for Marth matches. The main people I see are Mr. R/Mr. Eric(not really)/Leon(sometimes)/mikeHAZE(does he even play anymore?).

Oh dear. Have you not seen any of Mikeneko's matches? If not, you're missing out dude. He's a god. Leon idolizes him XD

 

[ぱみゅ]

He seems to have a ZSS weakness though

 

[Man Li Gi]

Oh dear. Have you not seen any of Mikeneko's matches? If not, you're missing out dude. He's a god. Leon idolizes him XD

I've heard of him and watched a couple matches, but generally I don't watch characters that put me to sleep. Marth, ICs and sometimes MKs put me to sleep while watching them. Marth is cool and all to people, but I just get bored with him real quick. I do remember that he (Mike) doesn't really do god like with ZSSs though.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Hey if people here are running out of things to rip on, trying heading to this thread before it's locked (which is hopefully ASAP) : http://smashboards.com/threads/the-tier-lists-are-wrong.354419/#post-16705601

And Peach is a good backup if you can play it versus ICs game 3 or game 5 in a set. Wario is also not... well, there are worse main choices... (you could main, like, Zelda...).

i used to have a zelda, but i beat an ICs on FD at whobo with peach so i guess its working out

 

[SSS]

i used to have a zelda, but i beat an ICs on FD at whobo with peach so i guess its working out

are you the DEADBEEF that is in my RSBE01.gct for some reason?

 

[pidgezero_one]

are you the DEADBEEF that is in my RSBE01.gct for some reason?

Yes yes I am, enjoy your default tournament settings

 

[Radical Larry]

Anyone want to share if they think Link may get higher?
I mean, maybe I could see a rise about 1-4 places up, but that's the best I'd give him. Any thoughts?

 

[Man Li Gi]

He won't. If anything, he should fall below Jiggs.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Did Someone Say Jiggs?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Did Someone Say Jiggs?

Yes. Man Li Gi did.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Yes. Man Li Gi did.

oh

 

[Man Li Gi]

MY NAME IS FREAKING THERE!

 

[Seagull Joe]

Joe pretends marth doesn't exist by switching out to his secondary Meta Knight, obviously.

Psh. The only I haven't beaten is Ramin. I'm like 7-2 with Neo, 4-1 with Kadaj, 1-2 with Leon, and MikeHaze won't go vs me because he doesn't know the matchup. I've never gone vs any except vs Neo in friendlies. I stick to my 99% of the time.

Joe, if has this match-ups you said (And I believe that nobody is better than you to talk about Wolf MU's nowadays) how could he be "fine where he is" ?
I don't get it.About or (higher positions than Wolf) : in grand tourneys I can't see them beating good or .

The char can't be good because he destroys low-tiers faster than other, all that matter in metagame is the most-used characters.
So if a char has a horrible (-3 or -4) MU against : ,,,,, and how can he be viable in tourneys ?
I'm far away from top-professional level and already avoid playing with in his bad MU's, picking instead.

is fine where he is because the characters above him have better matchup spreads and tournament results. I am THEE getting results. The characters above mine get results as well, but they also have a lot more positive matchups.

for example, completely destroys most of mid tier/low tier. has a lot of even matchups with MT/LT. has a better chance at beating a top level / simply because he has a higher gimmick factor going for him. has to be played frame perfect with minimal error to succeed at top level. sucks, but he shuts down a lot of characters. doesn't shut down any characters other then , , , and LT's.

Ugh this tier list is so weird. The order is fine but like the lettering system. . .ugh.

Also I was about to ask if the line of viability is at , , or , then I realized this is Brawl and the line of viability is at .

Also all y'all with "secondary Meta Knights". "I play but I use for my bad matchups." "I play but I use for my bad matchups." Like damn son your character only HAS bad matchups.

Also lol when people say they have a main then have a secondary just for fighting . There are so many s in tournament that whatever character you use for fighting IS YOUR MAIN, even if you don't use them for every other character.

The only character I go vs is . I go in literally every other matchup.

 

[New_Dumal]

Also all y'all with "secondary Meta Knights". "I play but I use for my bad matchups." "I play but I use for my bad matchups." Like damn son your character only HAS bad matchups.

Also lol when people say they have a main then have a secondary just for fighting . There are so many s in tournament that whatever character you use for fighting IS YOUR MAIN, even if you don't use them for every other character.

False.
Vs is completely playable. I only change to if I have been destroyed in the first match of the set.
I actually prefer fight than other "top tiers" ( but this is because I suck in this personal MU's, MK is really the bigger problem.)


have just ONE -2 MU in the entire MU chart , against . (MU Japan-Pit's learned to play this quite well).
How can you say this character isn't better than ?Just because wins against weighty characters easily ?
I'm too concerned against the lettering system. Because in my sincere opinion (not much different from M2K if i recall correctly) we don't have this gap between
/ and /....

I just used the Seagull Joe example to show that he is going almost-solo better than anyone in C+ category.
I know is his job playing great with , but isn't this allowed because the char potential ?
Other weird concept of this tier list is that number of top tiers....

/ = top tiers
, , , / ,, = high tiers...

Easier this way.

 

[BlueXenon]

Over the past year, Vex, the best DDD main, beat ADHD, Orion, Nakat and Vinnie (ICs), and Mr. R.

 

[L∈O]

I watched Vex's set against Vinnie on the stream, it was pretty hype...

For those who didn't watch it:

 

[LiteralGrill]

Hey guys, if YOLO Brawl gets popular, do you think characters with good suicide moves will move up? All it takes is one lucky hit.

 

[ぱみゅ]

In popularity, maybe.
In ranks would be very unlikely.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

After playing Melee for a long time now I started to wonder what characters in brawl make great standalone characters. I am of the opinion that in Melee Peach, Marth, Jiggs, Fox, Falco, and Sheik are really the only characters I would say can be expected to take nationals by themselves. At least the past results seem to point to this currently.

I would guess that Meta Knight and ICs are such characters, but I wonder if characters like Falco or Marth can really expect to take nationals against the rest of the horde.

 

[Luco]

I've always felt like the potential is there but people rarely grab it - considering the amount of matches and people you have to play to get up to finals, it can be hard for non-MK players to do consistently well enough to get all the way to GFs and win.

Then again that all comes into your equation, but I still think there's room for surprises.

 

[Man Li Gi]

After playing Melee for a long time now I started to wonder what characters in brawl make great standalone characters. I am of the opinion that in Melee Peach, Marth, Jiggs, Fox, Falco, and Sheik are really the only characters I would say can be expected to take nationals by themselves. At least the past results seem to point to this currently.

I would guess that Meta Knight and ICs are such characters, but I wonder if characters like Falco or Marth can really expect to take nationals against the rest of the horde.

ZSS, Falco, Marth, Snake, Wario, and Oli are good standalone characters.

 

[infiniteV115]

Falco's not really a good standalone character. He would be if he didn't get bodied by ICs, but he does.

I'd mention Pikachu too but there aren't really more than 2 relevant Pikachus in NA that the relevant Falcos have to worry about

 

[mimgrim]

Diddy is also a pretty good standalone character as well.

 

[infiniteV115]

I admire your choice in font colour

 

[Z'zgashi]

After playing Melee for a long time now I started to wonder what characters in brawl make great standalone characters. I am of the opinion that in Melee Peach, Marth, Jiggs, Fox, Falco, and Sheik are really the only characters I would say can be expected to take nationals by themselves. At least the past results seem to point to this currently.

I would guess that Meta Knight and ICs are such characters, but I wonder if characters like Falco or Marth can really expect to take nationals against the rest of the horde.

Obligatory Apex was taken by a solo ZSS post.

Really, Id say MK, ICs, Oli, Diddy, Marth, Snake, Falco, ZSS, probably Pikachu (but nobody plays him), and MAYBE Wario. Toon Link maybe could as well, but the mental strain of doing so would be off the charts.

 

[Djent]

The only good "standalone" characters are the two S-Tier characters, and . They beat everyone else* and are close to even with each other (MK wins by a hair, though).

is close, but he struggles enough against MK and Pikachu that he doesn't count.
gets absolutely bodied by any ICs that know what to do, so he's out.
does okayish vs. ICs but struggles vs. MK; the opposite of Olimar.
is close to even with MK, but gets so horribly ****ed up by ICs that he's a bad solo pick.
can beat MK and ICs, but not consistently. He also loses a few other important MUs.
would be great if knowledgeable MK wasn't close to unwinnable.
not only loses to MK/ICs, but most other good characters as well.
...lol.


*ICs might lose to R.O.B., but MK is kind enough to keep wackbot out of the top placings.

 

[mimgrim]

Using that logic then the only real stand alone characters in Melee are Fox and Falco.

 

[NickRiddle]

And Peach when Armada plays her.
That's about right, when do they NOT win tournaments?
Assuming when somebody like HBox isn't better than the competition.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

If you have to designate match-ups with numbers, then anything such as a slight disadvantage can overcome by good play in my books. This is why I always thought of Snake as still being very relevant. I do not believe there is a single match-up in which he loses significantly. But, what do I know. I have not touched brawl in years.

 

[mimgrim]

And Peach when Armada plays her.
That's about right, when do they NOT win tournaments?
Assuming when somebody like HBox isn't better than the competition.

Armada switches to Young Link for going against Jiggs though?

 

[Djent]

Fox and Falco *are* the only good standalone characters in Melee. The current tier list is ridiculously optimistic and contrary to top player sentiment.

Other characters can go far when they avoid bad MUs (as shown by old/new results from Hax/S2J and Wobbles/Fly) but not consistently.

 

[infiniteV115]

I think you forgot to mention Oli as one of the main reasons Snake isn't really a viable stand-alone character

 

[Thor]

*ICs might lose to R.O.B., but MK is kind enough to keep wackbot out of the top placings.

...Did the chart change a lot since I last dropped in here? ZSS is just fine against ICs given her zoning tools and great air game to keep them separated.

+1 may be somewhat optimistic, but I find a -1 for ZSS/ICs rather generous to ICs as well.

ICs also don't beat everyone else, they just don't lose to relevant characters as you designate them (although I've heard some ICs mains call the Snake/ICs MU a *****).

I do agree at your description of Wario's viability though.

Have we reached 2OXX, where -1 MUs make someone unviable? Or is this just "MK's MUs are all screwed up because MK mains think their character is bad and most non-MK mains think their character is great"?

Also Djent, I personally think you've ignored Hbox - M2K puts Puff at #3, and she beats/even with everyone not named Fox, so... and if you agree to disagree, cool, I'll drop it too because Brawl thread here.

 

[Djent]

I think you forgot to mention Oli as one of the main reasons Snake isn't really a viable stand-alone character

I purposely omitted Oli because I don't think it's that bad for Snake. Watch Razer or any of the Japanese Snakes (esp. Kuroobi) play the MU. Both characters have options to wreck the other, so it's volatile. But it's much closer to even than people think.

...Did the chart change a lot since I last dropped in here? ZSS is just fine against ICs given her zoning tools and great air game to keep them separated.

+1 may be somewhat optimistic, but I find a -1 for ZSS/ICs rather generous to ICs as well.

ICs also don't beat everyone else, they just don't lose to relevant characters as you designate them (although I've heard some ICs mains call the Snake/ICs MU a *****).

I do agree at your description of Wario's viability though.

Have we reached 2OXX, where -1 MUs make someone unviable? Or is this just "MK's MUs are all screwed up because MK mains think their character is bad and most non-MK mains think their character is great"?

Also Djent, I personally think you've ignored Hbox - M2K puts Puff at #3, and she beats/even with everyone not named Fox, so... and if you agree to disagree, cool, I'll drop it too because Brawl thread here.

I'm not using the chart, it's stupid LOL.

I suspect ZSS gets bodied by ICs. People flip their **** because Choco beat 9B once. Salem has *never* beaten Vinnie and actually resorts to counterpicking him. I'm not sure if this means ZSS mains just don't know what they're doing in the MU, but I suspect not because they've figured out ways around her other hard MUs.

IMO ICs beat everyone except R.O.B. (-1), MK (-0.5), and Snake (evenish, maybe +/- 0.5 based on port priority). The so-called "counterpicks" like TL/Peach/whoever look good against ICs because other characters body them harder. So those characters look comparatively less sucky in a less sucky (but still poor) ICs MU. That's just my pet theory, but I suspect at least some ICs players would back me on it.

A "-1" MU against a character that (at top levels) is as prevalent as high-level MK/ICs is indeed a big deal. The sheer frequency of those MUs means that you'll have to be playing noticeably better than several S-Tier mainers who are on top of the game now. Your A- or B-tier might pull some upsets, but can you get through Zero/Nairo/M2K *and* Vinnie/NAKAT/ESAM? Very few players can do so consistently. For an unusual character to win, they need not only to be playing near-flawlessly, but also benefit from 1) brackets of favorable character MUs or 2) opponent mistakes.

And yes, I am ignoring HBox (and Puff) because 1) Fox poops on Puff *IMO* and 2) I think Falco might win the MU as well.

 

[mimgrim]

I dunno man. I think ICs also lose to Wario and Peach and maybe, emphasis on maybe, Toon Link and Marth

 

[Man Li Gi]

Maybe just me, but I thought ICs suffer against anyone that has decent zoning tools and can stay in the air.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Diddy is a solid standalone character and is completely capable of winning a large tournament solo

Diddy is also the spawn of Satan and bodies every character except MK imo (MK is -1)

 

[Djent]

Diddy is a solid standalone character and is completely capable of winning a large tournament solo

...they need not only to be playing near-flawlessly, but also benefit from ... opponent mistakes.

 

[Thor]

I'm not using the chart, it's stupid LOL.

I suspect ZSS gets bodied by ICs. People flip their **** because Choco beat 9B once. Salem has *never* beaten Vinnie and actually resorts to counterpicking him. I'm not sure if this means ZSS mains just don't know what they're doing in the MU, but I suspect not because they've figured out ways around her other hard MUs.

IMO ICs beat everyone except R.O.B. (-1), MK (-0.5), and Snake (evenish, maybe +/- 0.5 based on port priority). The so-called "counterpicks" like TL/Peach/whoever look good against ICs because other characters body them harder. So those characters look comparatively less sucky in a less sucky (but still poor) ICs MU. That's just my pet theory, but I suspect at least some ICs players would back me on it.

A "-1" MU against a character that (at top levels) is as prevalent as high-level MK/ICs is indeed a big deal. The sheer frequency of those MUs means that you'll have to be playing noticeably better than several S-Tier mainers who are on top of the game now. Your A- or B-tier might pull some upsets, but can you get through Zero/Nairo/M2K *and* Vinnie/NAKAT/ESAM? Very few players can do so consistently. For an unusual character to win, they need not only to be playing near-flawlessly, but also benefit from 1) brackets of favorable character MUs or 2) opponent mistakes.

And yes, I am ignoring HBox (and Puff) because 1) Fox poops on Puff *IMO* and 2) I think Falco might win the MU as well.

Pika's biggest issue is Olimar. By a lot. Marth is infuriating but workable, as is Diddy - ICs I'm indecisive on as to how much they set Pikachu back.

Snake probably beats/even with ICs, very tight though.

You argument about "other hard MUs" is lacking when every one of those players (except Tyrant but who cares because Nairo, Zero, M2K and co. are out there) has beaten Salem at a later date (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuJVN3xdyXg is ADHD beating him (and there are at least two other sets I've seen where Salem loses), here's his CP to Keitaro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPz3xcaWMO4 and he loses here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8_kbPN6tXY and here's not Tyrant because they have one set [which was before Apex put him way on the map] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz9wntlRGok and there are other examples I'm sure). Also I'd love to hear Nick Riddle's opinion on the MU of ICs versus ZSS, whatever it is, as Nick Riddle's brother [ESAM] plays ICs, so he's probably familiar with the matchup.

I don't really buy your pet theory, but I don't really care either... I don't really think ROB has a better ICs MU than MK does either, but it's not impossible. And Kie still makes ICs just look bad more often than not - it looks like ICs just lose that MU.

SKTAR 2 wasn't just a fluke on ADHD's part - unless that guy who was pointing out mines really influenced the match that much in GFs, he was just better than the competition that day. And if you look he'd faded away from Zero a little too far when his fair misses or he'd have had it anyway [fair was fresh and an early clean would give him 3%, late hit would tie it] - kind of offsets Zero's error. And if you didn't notice, all 3 of those characters in WF and LF were not MK/Ics, so they all had the potential - the Diddy pulled it out, but that's not to say Snake/Olimar couldn't have one or two more go their way and then one of those characters is the champion being pointed out.

Melee: Fox really doesn't poop on Puff in that MU at all. Yeah Puff loses, and maybe loses to Falco (I don't buy it), but that's literally PP and Mango, not most Foxes or Falcos - not even M2K as of now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yfo-v8pbXc and note it was one tech error from a clean 3-0... I also admittedly consider M2K's opinion far more useful than yours, and he says Puff's #3, so the MU can't be that bad - yeah Fox wins but it's far from a -2 or bodying, and probably functions below or at a -1.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'd almost consider CPing to Jigglypuff against ICs, it actually seems to work quite well the few times I've seen it done...

Regardless, MK and ICs are the driving force of the meta. The entire tier list is pretty much decided by whether you can beat these two, and while we do see other characters winning big events they really do have the odds stacked against them considerably.