Official SWF Tier List v8

[Cassio]

After playing Melee for a long time now I started to wonder what characters in brawl make great standalone characters. I am of the opinion that in Melee Peach, Marth, Jiggs, Fox, Falco, and Sheik are really the only characters I would say can be expected to take nationals by themselves. At least the past results seem to point to this currently.

I would guess that Meta Knight and ICs are such characters, but I wonder if characters like Falco or Marth can really expect to take nationals against the rest of the horde.

Using the criteria from the melee characters you selected Id say top tier plus Pika and ZSS.

 

[Thor]

I'd almost consider CPing to Jigglypuff against ICs, it actually seems to work quite well the few times I've seen it done...

I'm pretty sure that's ICs not knowing an almost unknown character... and the fact that Jigglypuff is [arguably?] the best air camper in the game, so that if she gets a lead, chasing her down is annoying [she can look for a time-out pretty well] which means getting a lead and making your opponent fear approaching doesn't work as well versus Puff, but Puff can make a lone ICs irritated that they have to approach.

But the few videos I've seen make the MU look absolutely infuriating on both sides.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I'm pretty sure that's ICs not knowing an almost unknown character... and the fact that Jigglypuff is [arguably?] the best air camper in the game

Wario is probably better than Puff.

But the few videos I've seen make the MU look absolutely infuriating on both sides.

Describes the MU perfectly. I love it.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I'm pretty sure that's ICs not knowing an almost unknown character... and the fact that Jigglypuff is [arguably?] the best air camper in the game, so that if she gets a lead, chasing her down is annoying [she can look for a time-out pretty well] which means getting a lead and making your opponent fear approaching doesn't work as well versus Puff, but Puff can make a lone ICs irritated that they have to approach.

But the few videos I've seen make the MU look absolutely infuriating on both sides.

Wario's superior aerial friction and horizontal aerial acceleration allows him to move better in the air than even Jiggs. Wario has a better time stalling than Jiggs all day. Heck Squirtle even moves better.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'm pretty sure that's ICs not knowing an almost unknown character... and the fact that Jigglypuff is [arguably?] the best air camper in the game, so that if she gets a lead, chasing her down is annoying [she can look for a time-out pretty well] which means getting a lead and making your opponent fear approaching doesn't work as well versus Puff, but Puff can make a lone ICs irritated that they have to approach.

But the few videos I've seen make the MU look absolutely infuriating on both sides.

It probably is the lack of matchup knowledge, but honestly if I can use that to my advantage, why not? Plus, the Wall of Pain seems to be easier on Nana since her AI isn't exactly amazing. If you can split them up you have a good shot to get down to SOPO and stall your guts out.

Infuriating is the perfect word.

 

[Shaya]

Squirtle moves in one direction pretty quickly, but his "turn around" velocity/etc are horrendous. It's actually kinda crippling to squirtle tbqh as he has this awesome almost melee dash jump, but it has so much commitment.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm pretty sure that's ICs not knowing an almost unknown character... and the fact that Jigglypuff is [arguably?] the best air camper in the game, so that if she gets a lead, chasing her down is annoying [she can look for a time-out pretty well] which means getting a lead and making your opponent fear approaching doesn't work as well versus Puff, but Puff can make a lone ICs irritated that they have to approach.

But the few videos I've seen make the MU look absolutely infuriating on both sides.

It's also the fact she is the hardest character to CG with ICs.

 

[Z'zgashi]

IC's fthrow chaingrab isnt any harder against Puff. Every character is the same if you just fthrow chain. Only hard part would be if you have to turn around, but with how light Jiggs is that usually wont even be needed unless shes grabbed like, RIGHT on the ledge. I mean, she dies so early, its not like they need to CG for too long lol.

But regardless of my minor nitpicks, I agree that its an annoying MU for both sides.

 

[Luco]

It's also the fact she is the hardest character to CG with ICs.

I was told that was Lucas due to body-shape?

Ah well, the more you know I suppose.

Don't really mean to just discuss my character, that's just something i'd legit heard.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lucas is EZPZ imo. First character I was ever able to consistently CG in fact lol.

I dont see how Lucas can be hard, I mean, his head is ****ing massive and he sticks it forward all the time.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I was told that was Lucas due to body-shape?

Ah well, the more you know I suppose.

Don't really mean to just discuss my character, that's just something i'd legit heard.

You have 1 frame of error with Jigglypuff.

That's why.

 

[PKBeam]

I was told that was Lucas due to body-shape?

Ah well, the more you know I suppose.

Don't really mean to just discuss my character, that's just something i'd legit heard.

I thought so too, but I tried CGing . Seeing as I find it easy to CG lightweights like easy, I thought was a walk in the park but it was really really difficult to regrab (at least with Bthrow).
I think Lucas is pretty hard but I did manage to regrab him with Bthrow a few times. Fthrow was really tricky tho.

Lucas is EZPZ imo. First character I was ever able to consistently CG in fact lol.

I dont see how Lucas can be hard, I mean, his head is ****ing massive and he sticks it forward all the time.

I think it's his actual hurtboxes, that might explain why he gets out of 's Usmash easily.

is a very weird character.

 

[Luco]

I... never found Jigglypuff that hard. She was fast and that threw me but I guess I just got into a rhythm and it stopped being a massive issue.

Ah well. :/

 

[-LzR-]

Jigglypuff is damn easy. Lucas is hard not only because it feels hard, but because his hurtboxes work in such way that your spacing must be exact for a regrab.

 

[LiteralGrill]

You know, if YOLO becomes the norm, where do you guys thinks the individual Pokemon from PT will end up?

 

[Thor]

You know, if YOLO becomes the norm, where do you guys thinks the individual Pokemon from PT will end up?

Squirtle will be (I think it was Nick Riddle who said):

"Mid-tier. Because Marth."

Ivysaur is near the very bottom, if someone wanted to main her... she can be gimped like no one's business, and is MK's punching bag, among others.

Charizard probably isn't that high, but he can shift to Squirtle for tricks (zero-drop on Smashville if you can get an opening) and he's not terrible against some characters, so he's probably higher than Ivy, but lower than Squirtle. Becomes slightly better than/equal to Squirtle if you're good at finding openings to change and proficient with both characters.

Those are mainly just guesses on my part.

This might be a reason to revive MU charts for each of the individual characters though (i.e., I've read Squirtle beats Dedede but Ivysaur and Charizard are countered/hard-countered by him, etc.).

 

[M@v]

Squirtle's easily the best one, up around DK and Kirby. Ivys the worse, but I don't know if he'd be low tier by himself...he'd probably be behind lucas. Charizard would be a little above that.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Honestly, I dont think Charizard is very good, I feel like nobody knows anything about PT because nobody plays him, and when people 3 years ago said Zard was bottom of Mid tier, everyone just believed them (because they had no reason not to) and now that opinion is out of date and no longer true, but has stuck because nobody EVER sees PT lol.

Id personally say Squirtle is right above Sonic and below DK/Kirby and Zard/Ivy are somewhere around Bowser/Mario (Samus should be above Mario). I honestly cant decide who I think is better between Ivy and Zard since its hard to judge when there hasnt been basically ANY results/gameplay of them for the past year or two to look at, but I do feel Zard is overrated and Ivy very slightly underrated (not much, she IS bad, but shes not Triforce tier bad like some believe, or at least imo).

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I think we need @ TheReflexWonder to tell us everything about PT

 

[TheReflexWonder]

it's not a bad idea

I still largely hold to the opinion I had when I was in my heyday a couple of years ago (though I think Squirtle's probably B Tier material alone, slightly worse than I thought before). I can try to find that post when people were talking about it.

 

[-LzR-]

Charizard and Squirtle are both overrated. Rock Smash is decent but people seem to think you can easily land that crazy damage out of it like it's nothing. Squirtle is a super lightweight with a worse recovery than Marth who suffers from grab releases and has no reliable killmove outside of a Dthrow.

 

[M@v]

He's still easily the best of the three in brawl.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Hey guys, if YOLO Brawl gets popular, do you think characters with good suicide moves will move up? All it takes is one lucky hit.

I mean they'd have to land it 3 times to take the set

Just like they'd have to land it 3 times to take a game in the standard ruleset...

Screw flaoc

also hello long time no see

 

[-LzR-]

He's still easily the best of the three in brawl.

Obviously yeah. I'll take lightweight and mobile over heavy and huge combo target or a slow midrange character without a recovery. I just don't like how many people who haven't studied the character immediately regard Ivysaur as complete trash and Charizard as a big Rock Smash device.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I will say this. As someone who attempted to pick up PT for a while a couple years ago (although Im DEFINITELY not a pro on PT or anything, however I definitely do know my way around the basics and a few higher level things about PT) and also playing Bowser, I see no real reason to play Charizard over Bowser, imo Bowser is better. Bowser is more mobile (Charizrad has a better run speed but Bowser is MUCH faster in the air and has Klaw Hopping), Bowser has better OoS options, Bowser has grab release combos on the whole cast, Bowser has a command grab, and Bowser overall has a better air game (not by much, but definitely does). They both have mediocre recoveries, but all Charziard really has on Bowser is his firebreath is better, Rock Smash is really good for reads (especially since it can be used in the air), Zard's uair/nair are better at harassing characters above you, and Charizard's dtilt is actually pretty fantastic for punishes. Also Charizard has a spike which is cool. Overall though, I just think Bowser is a better character than Charizard, ESPECIALLY when you factor in fatigue.

 

[PKBeam]

Squirtle is ez for Marf.
Cos whenever a grab release can be abused, Marth is there. Always watching, always waiting.

 

[pidgezero_one]

regardless there are much better pokemon than PT, like a certain pink puff ball with an OP down-b named kirby

also can someone explain why fatigue isnt a thing in 1 stock brawl

 

[Shaya]

It definitely isn't a thing in terms of managing each individual pokemon's fatigue (like staying out a minute as zard/ivy gets you a refreshed squirtle).

 

[pidgezero_one]

when is tier list v4? i want t o make aothe r video

 

[ぱみゅ]

Do it regardless.

 

[pidgezero_one]

give me a week

 

[Karaoke Man]

Wario's superior aerial friction and horizontal aerial acceleration allows him to move better in the air than even Jiggs. Wario has a better time stalling than Jiggs all day. Heck Squirtle even moves better.

No, Wario does not lol. Jigglypuff can pound like 3 times in 1 full hop alone. Combine with that with the fact that Jigglypuff has six jumps and and have the capability to stall in the air horizontally each time she does it. Technically, Jigglypuff is probably the one character where she hardly has to touch the ground at all. Not saying that you shouldn't, but that's where her capabilities are pretty strong. Remember: Wario has good accelaration and drifting but Jigglypuff's top horizontal air speed is second only to Yoshi. Plus, the move she stalls with is pretty disjointed as well.

Squirtle's easily the best one, up around DK and Kirby. Ivys the worse, but I don't know if he'd be low tier by himself...he'd probably be behind lucas. Charizard would be a little above that.

Squirtle is good, I agree but I definitely wouldn't say he's the best of the three. Squirtle is just all we've mainly seen out of the 3 because the other two were automatically branded as "bad"

Let's not forget that Ivysaur has:

• The longest Bair in the game
• The highest veritical reaching projectile in the game (Bullet Seed)
• An Upsmash, Uair, and Dair with a really obnoxiously large hitbubble
• The ability to horizontal camp and pressure simiarly to how Wolf or Falco does with their lasers. Can cut throught most camp games.
• A standard special that has invulnerabilty on the first frame.

Overall, he's got the absolute best range and zoning of the 3. Both horizontally and vertically.

Buuuut you know we can't forgot about Charizard:

• Probably has the most damaging side special in the entire game.
• Moves that require a lot less commitment than Bowser.
• The fire from Fair gives the move good range.
• Has "tipping" moves at the end of his tail (Nair, Bair, Ftilt)
• The best standing (non-tether) grab range of the 3.
• Almost obnoxiously disjointed Dair
• Super armor frames on Up B
• The only other heavyweight with multiple jumps that can live for a fairly long time.
• Can also glide

Quite frankly, I still don't know everything about Charizard, but I do know that out of the 3 Pokemon that PT has, Charizard has the best Survival capabilities and definitely the hardest hitting one. It's like the comparison between Fox and Sonic; Sonic is technically the fastest character, but Fox's attacks are definitely a lot quicker than Sonic's.

Personally, I don't believe in a "bad character". There's only untapped potential.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Almost all of those things you said about Charizard are untrue or highly exaggerated/unlikely to work/happen. Charizard IS DEFINITELY a bad character.

/used to have a PT secondary for a year or so (and Im by no means a PT 'pro', but I can tell you Zard and Ivy are definitely bad)

EDIT: Actually, let me explain why:

Let's not forget that Ivysaur has:
The longest Bair in the game

It does 3% and it easy to outspace/pressure due to Ivy's completely abysmal mobility.

The highest veritical reaching projectile in the game (Bullet Seed)

An insanely high risk high reward move with a horrible hitbox that doesnt even follow itself up correctly on 1/4th of the cast. Has about 60 frames of cooldown on whiff and can even be punished on hit sometimes.

An Upsmash, Uair, and Dair with a really obnoxiously large hitbubble

And a really obnoxiously long cooldown. On Usmash at least. Uair is definitely good, but good luck getting people there in the first place, and good luck following up all the air mobility in this game with her lack of any movement speed at all. And dair is pretty terrible unless youre high in the air or offstage, both places Ivy doesnt want to be in the first place.

The ability to horizontal camp and pressure simiarly to how Wolf or Falco does with their lasers. Can cut throught most camp games.

Um, no. She has no mobility at all. Her bair can be outfoostsied by basic shielding and just running at her and her razor leaf is both slow to come out and slow to recover, making it really only 'safe' at 60% distance or further.

A standard special that has invulnerabilty on the first frame.

And is punishable by Ganon's uptilt (not really but almost)

Overall, he's got the absolute best range and zoning of the 3. Both horizontally and vertically.

lolno

Buuuut you know we can't forgot about Charizard:
Probably has the most damaging side special in the entire game.

Unless the person getting hit by it knows what DI is, in which case it does maybe 20% and can be punished on hit.

Moves that require a lot less commitment than Bowser.

No. Bowser's Jab, Fair, and Klaw are all safer than anything Zard has.

The fire from Fair gives the move good range.

The Hitboxes at the end dont have knockback meaning its easily punished.

Has "tipping" moves at the end of his tail (Nair, Bair, Ftilt)
The best standing (non-tether) grab range of the 3.
Almost obnoxiously disjointed Dair

Yes.

Super armor frames on Up B.

Awful hitbox and only on the ground. Also super punishable.

The only other heavyweight with multiple jumps that can live for a fairly long time.

Two half the normal height jumps, its almost worse than having one normal jump actually.

Can also glide

Horrible glide is horrible.

 

[Man Li Gi]

No, Wario does not lol. Jigglypuff can pound like 3 times in 1 full hope alone. Combine with that with the fact that Jigglypuff has six jumps and and have the capability to stall in the air horizontally each time she does it. Technically, Jigglypuff is probably the one character where she hardly has to touch the ground at all. Not saying that you shouldn't, but that's where her capabilities are pretty strong. Remember: Wario has good accelaration and drifting but Jigglypuff's top horizontal air speed is second only to Yoshi. Plus, the move she stalls with is pretty disjointed as well.


Personally, I don't believe in a "bad character". There's only untapped potential.

Wario has a faster falling speed which allows for pound (a stalling move) to happen 3 times. When I said stalling with Wario, I was talking about match time outs, not just plain stalling. Since I was never talking about top horizontal aerial speed, don't know why you brought it up. The "drifting" is because of Wario's high air friction and acceleration.

Personally, I don't believe in a "bad character". There's only untapped potential.

Funny, you didn't seem to talk about Ganondorf.

 

[Karaoke Man]

Almost all of those things you said about Charizard are untrue or highly exaggerated/unlikely to work/happen. Charizard IS DEFINITELY a bad character.

/used to have a PT secondary for a year or so (and Im by no means a PT 'pro', but I can tell you Zard and Ivy are definitely bad)

Ivysaur might have a booty recovery sure, but that doesn't brand him as a bad character, neither should be the case for Charizard.
There are ways to make them work. And it's through the use of creativity

For example, Link's recovery is also buns. But if you are carrying a bomb for at least 1 1/2 seconds before getting hit offstage, while you are falling, you can Z-drop + rising Fair (or w/e aerial that's not Uair or Dair) to make it back to the stage. Even IF you get edgehogged, the point of that is to stall the bomb long enough to explode. Which in turn further increasing your chance of survival. Something I came up with that works 90% of the time.

Same creative aspect can be done for Ivysaur and Charizard and any character in general, in just about any game.
Granted, yeah any character in general is "bad" when all of their tools and attributes aren't used to their fullest potential. Much like how most players say Mario is bad for example, but then completley forget that the 3 different tools he has (Fireball, Cape, F.L.U.D.D) have several different uses. Especially when they are put together. I may not know eeeeeverything about Charizard yet, but trust that there is a way around his weakness' just like any other character.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I edited a lot into my post before you responded.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I still don't see you talkin about Ganon bro.

 

[Karaoke Man]

Wario has a faster falling speed which allows for pound (a stalling move) to happen 3 times. When I said stalling with Wario, I was talking about match time outs, not just plain stalling. Since I was never talking about top horizontal aerial speed, don't know why you brought it up. The "drifting" is because of Wario's high air friction and acceleration.

Jigglypuff can do the same thing. You've just never seen it because almost nobody plays the character.

Funny, you didn't seem to talk about Ganondorf.

Because it wasn't in my plan, nor was I trying to use a large sum of brain power trying to explain every last detail of every character...Sorry?

But, technically Ganon can do the FoG as many times as he wants consecutively as long as it's timed right. It's hard as **** to do, but it IS possible. The horizontal momentum he carries into can also be used as a mixup for a reverse landing Warlock punch. (The revese Warlock Punch works more as a b reverse and maintains the horizontal momentum Ganon already has. )

Almost all of those things you said about Charizard are untrue or highly exaggerated/unlikely to work/happen. Charizard IS DEFINITELY a bad character.

/used to have a PT secondary for a year or so (and Im by no means a PT 'pro', but I can tell you Zard and Ivy are definitely bad)

EDIT: Actually, let me explain why:

It does 3% and it easy to outspace/pressure due to Ivy's completely abysmal mobility.

*But it's not a matter of what you use; it's how you use it. Of course if you just throw it out, it's gonna' get punished. It may not be strong, no, but it was never supposed to be. Again, it's used mainly for zoning and small strings. The vines also do not contain a hurtbox. That being said, there is no aerial or Bair in the game that has a farther reach than Ivy's Bair. Period. *

An insanely high risk high reward move with a horrible hitbox that doesnt even follow itself up correctly on 1/4th of the cast. Has about 60 frames of cooldown on whiff and can even be punished on hit sometimes.

And a really obnoxiously long cooldown. On Usmash at least. Uair is definitely good, but good luck getting people there in the first place, and good luck following up all the air mobility in this game with her lack of any movement speed at all. And dair is pretty terrible unless youre high in the air or offstage, both places Ivy doesnt want to be in the first place.

*I already have gotten people there in that first place. Not everything necessarily needs to be followed-up with as much as it needs to be pressured. Ivy's Uthrow can easily get people in the air (and there are other ways), buuuut, I guess nobody thought about pressuring the opponent with Bullet Seed while they're fairly hgher in the air. Even if you wind up missing; the furtther they are from you, the more time you will have to recover from the cool down lag. If you're doing/charging it up close to them, you're doing it wrong.*

Um, no. She has no mobility at all. Her bair can be outfoostsied by basic shielding and just running at her and her razor leaf is both slow to come out and slow to recover, making it really only 'safe' at 60% distance or further.

*Neither does does Link, but again he has the tools to work around it. Such as the correct use of the Gale Boomerang/ Bombsliding etc. Ivysaur has tools just like these, but obviously they are used differently. Also....retreating Razor Leaf anyone? Ivysaur is not supposed to be an "In your face" character....*

And is punishable by Ganon's uptilt (not really but almost)

*As I said, it's when and how you use it.*

lolno

*lolyes. re-read what I said please. There is no projectile within the 3 that have that much vertical reach that can outmatches Bullet Seed in that regard. and.... Like I said before, Ivy's Bair is the longest reaching bair in the game without extending any of her hurtboxes.*

Unless the person getting hit by it knows what DI is, in which case it does maybe 20% and can be punished on hit.

*Who said you were aiming to hit them with the shards? No, I meant the initial hit of the rock getting smash. You can DI that too, but it doesn't stop it from hurting like a *****. *


No. Bowser's Jab, Fair, and Klaw are all safer than anything Zard has.

*Charizard's Fair may be longer on the initial hit, but I haven't totally tested that out yet, so I'll leave that alone for now. *

The Hitboxes at the end dont have knockback meaning its easily punished.

*Again, I wasn't talking about the late/sour spots of the move. The initial/sweet spot of the move is what I was talking about. Why would anyone try to hit with the sour spot anyway?*

Yes.

Awful hitbox and only on the ground. Also super punishable.

*Doesn't stop it from punishing, punishable moves and KO'ing higher percents does it?*

Two half the normal height jumps, its almost worse than having one normal jump actually.

*Considering the length of the Up B he has? I disagree. No, he doesn't have the greatest jumps in the world obviously, but you cannot seriously tell me that there is NOT a use for them. *

Horrible glide is horrible.

*This is like saying Kirby's Fair sucks because you don't know the good uses for it it, yet. In fact, That is exactly what you're saying. *

No disrespect or anything, but it just sounds like you are looking at just about anything from a glass that's half empty without taking a look at how some of these can be used differently so you brand it as "bad" for not only what it's not meant to be used for; but for what you initially want it to be, but truth is, it's not and not ever truly going to be. Not everything in this game is as straightforward as you would think, but it's hardly ever as "bad" as you'd think.

Not everything is going to revolve around the logistics. Why? Because...

Creativity & Imagination is what builds the metagames.

Basically anything has it's limits, even Meta Knight has them, but it's what you do with those limits that really counts.

Responses in spoiler are in * *'s btw.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Because it wasn't in my plan, nor was I trying to use a large sum of brain power trying to explain every last detail of every character...Sorry?

But, technically Ganon can do the FoG as many times as he wants consecutively as long as it's timed right. It's hard as **** to do, but it IS possible. The horizontal momentum he carries into can also be used as a mixup for a reverse landing Warlock punch. (The revese Warlock Punch works more as a b reverse and maintains the horizontal momentum Ganon already has. )


No disrespect or anything, but it just sounds like you are looking at just about anything from a glass that's half empty without taking a look at how some of these can be used differently so you brand it as "bad" for not only what it's not meant to be used for; but for what you initially want it to be, but truth is, it's not and not ever truly going to be. Not everything in this game is as straightforward as you would think, but it's hardly ever as "bad" as you'd think.

Not everything is going to revolve around the logistics. Why? Because...

Creativity & Imagination is what builds the metagames.

Basically anything has it's limits, even Meta Knight has them, but it's what you do with those limits that really counts.

You make me laugh. Keep filling these boards with your knowledge. I have seen Jigg matches and they haven't gone to Time.

 

[Karaoke Man]

You make me laugh. Keep filling these boards with your knowledge. I have seen Jigg matches and they haven't gone to Time.

You have likely seen Jigglypuff's approach with Fair's instead of zoning with Bair's because that is what most of the Brawl Jiggly's do. If that's the case, then I'm not surprised people think Jiggly is free even though here Bair is disjointed, has longer reach, and has less cooldown. Like I said, just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean that it can't happen. I've seen an Ike time out a D3 before....at Apex.

I'm glad you find it funny, because I'm also laughing at the fact that you are not coming up with any new ideas and would rather wait for somebody else come onto your boards and do the conceptualizing for you before you even attempt to do it for yourself.