Official SWF Tier List v8

[-LzR-]

Unfortunately the tierlist is not for you, it's a list of character ranking in current metagame at top level. That means it doesn't really have that much meaning for most of us.

 

[Radical Larry]

Sure, it may not be for me (it kind of does affect me a little; again, look at my mains), but I still watch to see what would happen in the near future. I'm hoping that some characters would be refit into a newer position.

 

[-LzR-]

I think the metagame is quite stabilized at this point. There probably won't be any major changes to the tier list. Especially with MK and ICs dominating the metagame so other characters have even less room to shine.

 

[Radical Larry]

I see the entire MK and IC thing is practically out of hand. I think that, if players would drop the top tier characters and focus on the lower tiers and find any stable game, we may be able to find out more about the characters and see how they would stack up in the near future.

 

[-LzR-]

The tournament scene will take a huge hit when new Smash comes out, so I guess the lower tiers will never see their potential.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

how do you guys feel about Lucas being used in low tier tourneys still? I personally like it because he's better than jigglypuff (sorry max)

What? Lucas can't be SSSSSSSS+ tier, that's impossible!

 

[BlueXenon]

I see the entire MK and IC thing is practically out of hand. I think that, if players would drop the top tier characters and focus on the lower tiers and find any stable game, we may be able to find out more about the characters and see how they would stack up in the near future.

First you need to convince the top MK and IC players to deliberately lose money from attending tournaments. If there was no money to be won, there wouldn't be any dominant characters. Japan doesn't play for money and they have characters like Peach, ZSS, Wario etc. in grand finals, while we get to watch MK vs MK or ICs in grand finals.

 

[Djent]

Despite having better character diversity, Japan still has plenty of MK and ICs in Grand Finals.

Some people enjoy winning more than character loyalty. That's not me, but I can't hate.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Of course. But I do have rather too many mains to count for the Smash Bros. games. Look at my signature and you'll know what I mean. How this really affects me, metagame and my MU against other players is a mystery.

It's funny how egocentric new players are

 

[SSS]

It's funny how egocentric new players are

I feel like people don't get what "main" means.
Like you can't possibly develop that many characters to your fullest potential.
You just can't.

Also dat Keys to the Kingdom doe.

 

[Cold Fusion]

I feel like people don't get what "main" means.
Like you can't possibly develop that many characters to your fullest potential.
You just can't..

Eye maine randumb button in brawl.

 

[Man Li Gi]

How's Link even close to Bowser bro? Both easily get jammed offstage (an alternate to saying g**p as D1 wants us to stop saying it), but with Link many times I see that he has to wait until like 200% to kill the likes of DK, KD3, and Bowser.

 

[infiniteV115]

I haven't watched a ton of Link footage because there isn't much out there, but from the footage I HAVE watched it doesn't at all seem like Link has trouble killing. To me, Link seems like one of the bottom tiers (alongside Bowser and Ganon) where almost every move he has is a fairly strong-ridiculously strong kill move. Fsmash, dsmash, fair, dair, uair, ftilt, utilt (I think?) and I think eventually bair (I think in terms of strength, this move is like Diddy's utilt, not sure though)...he has a lot of kill options. Just like Bowser.

Though I do think Bowser is better. Link's recovery issues are just really hard to deal with lol. Bowser also has a reliable OoS option, a command grab and good grab release followups on most of the cast.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Though I do think Bowser is better. Link's recovery issues are just really hard to deal with lol. Bowser also has a reliable OoS option, a command grab and good grab release followups on most of the cast.

Pretty sure Bowser has good GR followups on the entire cast

tbh I think Bowser should be mid tier with Lucas.

But I'm also kinda dumb so idk.

 

[infiniteV115]

Not on DK, he only has a 1 frame advantage upon GRing DK.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

****ing DK screwing everything up. Such a dumb character.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Link does have plenty of killing moves like Ganon and Bowser, but most aren't reliable to land mid-game cept utilt, bair (needs high percentage and to be fresh though), and if you're willing to deal with dsmash's end lag and meh placed sweetspot. I don't look out for Link footage, but I just come across it and I try to put the very brief experience to help me understand what Larry is saying.

Actually Bowser has a 10 frame advantage in Brawl while DK gets out 10 frames earlier in Brawl as well. In Melee though, Bowser has 10 frames, while DK gets out 9 frames earlier. Both don't favor Bowser anyway.

DK is too good bro, you jelly?

 

[Gardex]

Man, Link's ftilt combined with his walk is pretty stupid you guys dont know

 

[New_Dumal]

I think it's funny discuss the bottom of the this tier list when it has so many problems at top...
MK and IC's are in their eternal right place and will hurt to much see them move positions at some time (it just don't will happen, at max put them in the same tier ).
But viewing this tier after some time...
Why Marth as 5ht ? This don't make any sense at all. Diddy is , at least in the actual scenario, better than Olimar too.
And Wolf,Pit and Fox are underated. Look at Seagull Joe position in APEX 2014 , 9ht is higher than any Lucario in recent days.
Pit has very good/acceptable MU's against the other high-tiers too, while D3 not.
--------
Now back to Hyrule-tier...
Link is in a Ok-position for him. I can't see he having better MU's than Mario or Samus.
While he has "o.k"-moves like Utilt, Bair, Nair (oh no, that's awfull) his hecovery is just too bad. Don't make any sense put him over C.Falcon at all.
Analyzing his moves compared to Bowser , they have almost similar potential in my honest opnion but playing with low-tiers in Brawl is all about reads and Link has more reliable moves to try a read (and has projectiles to try a annoying gameplay)
Bowser is easier then Link to be combo-ed ,too... I think that if someone is in the wrong position in bottom-tier , is Bowser.

About Bowser low-percentage follow-up's, I don't think it has so much impact at a 3-stock game, and it isn't great against everybody.

 

[Djent]

Marth should be beneath Snake, Falco, and possibly Pikachu as well. I can't see him dropping beneath Wario/ZSS.

Not sure how I feel about Diddy over Olimar. I guess it's arguable since Diddy fights ICs more effectively.

 

[Man Li Gi]

KD3 has such polarising MUs in general due to his grab and grab releases he has on the cast, so he is placed in the high tier for that reason. Wolf I do believe is underrated, but not to the point of crossing over past high/C+ tier since he faces KD3/Pika CG and ZSS's dsmash chain. If we went by performances at Apex, does everyone remember San 2010? A 9th place Ike!

Now Pit and Fox are also underrated, according to our Japanese brethren, but I lack to see what tools make them so good to the Japanese.

Link really has a few moves considered to be for reliable damage racking (the projectiles, Jab, JC, Bair, Nairplane, Zair), but Bowser has GR, a Command grab that cancels most land lag with great followups and better recovery and horizontal survivability (Link has one the best vertical endurances in the game I believe).

 

[New_Dumal]

Now Pit and Fox are also underrated, according to our Japanese brethren, but I lack to see what tools make them so good to the Japanese.

Pit just isn't a obvious high tier because his lacks of kill-moves.
All Pit specials are underated by general knowledge:
-> WoI can be used again if you touch the floor (giving him high speed to try edge guard) and you yet has the glide.
-> WoI stop momentum from Snakes C4's, has a strange knockback, and invencible frames triumphing against many recovery's.
-> Mirror Shield can stop/destroy bad recovery's very well, is fast enough to be normally used and a great option in many MU's.
-> Angel Ring too can destroy bad recovery's dragging the adversary very low and then flying. AR can do great damage against walls, with or withou SDI.
-> Palutena's Arrow is one of the best projectiles in the game, giving you a neutral MU against chars that put you in bad spacing to melee.

Nice jab, great reach with DTilt, can Chaingrab weighty characters at low %, frame 1 Utilt, tricky infinite-jab ...

Pit has the potential Japan see to him, but his lack of kill-moves hurts his gameplay too much. After all, his position in MY opnion in around ~10ht.
I know looks like I shouting about his actual position, but I'm just barely explaining the tools he has to Man Li Gi.
He is far away from a "great/OP character" at all.
--------

One thing that really bothers me is that you can't ignore the fact that MK and IC's rules the actual scenario when thinking in a tier list.
D3 really destroys half of the roster but against MK he is worse than Pit/Wolf so... In a scenario with so many MK's , don't look to me as a high-tier "decision".
Being more explicit : The MU against the top tiers are a giant factor in a character greatness.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Since when do people refer to as KD3? I had to stare at that for a good minute to figure out what it meant.

is fine where he is. The only matchup that keeps me from progressing in tourney tends to be top level or . is even with , , and . He loses -1 to . He loses -2 to . Those are the only characters I would consider relevant to tournaments. is only used by Esam. is only used by Vex.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Since when do people refer to as KD3? I had to stare at that for a good minute to figure out what it meant.

This is the same guy that called Samus "Zamus" because Samus players "use Zair a lot"

Everyone should just do what Seagull does and use the icons. Much easier imo.

 

[Man Li Gi]

All my experience of facing a good Pit comes from college/wifi and they really can rack damage on my DK, but never can get the kill. Excuse my earlier statement though, I have seen good Pits beat DKs (Earth and Fuwa, both Japanese). I just have a hard time placing Pit above Wolf. Wolf has plenty of tools that make him where he is and arguably even higher.

Since when do people refer to as KD3? I had to stare at that for a good minute to figure out what it meant.

is fine where he is. The only matchup that keeps me from progressing in tourney tends to be top level or . is even with , , and . He loses -1 to . He loses -2 to . Those are the only characters I would consider relevant to tournaments. is only used by Esam. is only used by Vex.

I know I'm not alone on this one, but KD3, D3, King DeDeDe, or has been around for a while now. I even seen other people refer to him like that and I swear you responded to some people using KD3 before.

SMaJ:

.

 

[Seagull Joe]

All my experience of facing a good Pit comes from college/wifi and they really can rack damage on my DK, but never can get the kill. Excuse my earlier statement though, I have seen good Pits beat DKs (Earth and Fuwa, both Japanese). I just have a hard time placing Pit above Wolf. Wolf has plenty of tools that make him where he is and arguably even higher.

I know I'm not alone on this one, but KD3, D3, King DeDeDe, or has been around for a while now. I even seen other people refer to him like that and I swear you responded to some people using KD3 before.

SMaJ: .

I've posted with character icons since 2010. I would never say 's name like that.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I swear you responded to some people using KD3 before.

Nah, you must be mistaken. I don't think I've ever seen Seagull use anything but the character icons.

also what the hell? Seagull you think Wolf and Falco are even?

I'd love to see your logic on that one, I've always seen it as slightly Falco's favour.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I've posted with character icons since 2010. I would never say 's name like that.

That's not what I meant, I meant that someone used the KD3 and then you knew what they were talking about then you replied with your icon as per usual. May be I should've fully explained that bit.

 

[SSS]

Those are the only characters I would consider relevant to tournaments.

Shots Fired

 

[Shaya]

Shots Fired

Joe pretends marth doesn't exist by switching out to his secondary Meta Knight, obviously.

 

[SSS]

Joe pretends marth doesn't exist by switching out to his secondary Meta Knight, obviously.

lol

"secondary meta knight"

 

[Man Li Gi]

Wolf is even with Marth and IC apparently. Anyway, I don't see that many Marths, but it could be just I don't really look for Marth matches. The main people I see are Mr. R/Mr. Eric(not really)/Leon(sometimes)/mikeHAZE(does he even play anymore?).

 

[Djent]

is only used by Esam.

I think a lot of people (and apparently yourself included) underrate Z as a player. He took out NAKAT at Apex in a MU that is by no means easy, and he recently 2-0'd DEHF at Fire Temple (IDC what anyone says, doesn't lose that badly to ). He's not quite an S-Tier player, but he's certainly a relevant threat to any main.

Wolf is even with Marth and IC apparently. Anyway, I don't see that many Marths, but it could be just I don't really look for Marth matches. The main people I see are Mr. R/Mr. Eric(not really)/Leon(sometimes)/mikeHAZE(does he even play anymore?).

had 2 spots in the top 8 of Apex 2013, and was one match away of making top 8 at Apex 2014. Mr. R and Leon are both very active, and when Mikeneko plays he does better than both. I honestly think has equal talent representing him to some much better characters even without Mikeneko, and if you factor him in then Marth has the edge.

Who does have anymore? Brood and Denti are basically it.
Who does have anymore? ADHD and Zinoto.
Who does Flaoc/have? DEHF is the last good bird left.
has MVD, Shogun, and Dio, so he actually wins if you exclude Mikeneko.

 

[New_Dumal]

Joe, if has this match-ups you said (And I believe that nobody is better than you to talk about Wolf MU's nowadays) how could he be "fine where he is" ?
I don't get it.About or (higher positions than Wolf) : in grand tourneys I can't see them beating good or .

The char can't be good because he destroys low-tiers faster than other, all that matter in metagame is the most-used characters.
So if a char has a horrible (-3 or -4) MU against : ,,,,, and how can he be viable in tourneys ?

I'm far away from top-professional level and already avoid playing with in his bad MU's, picking instead.

 

[SSS]

Ugh this tier list is so weird. The order is fine but like the lettering system. . .ugh.

Also I was about to ask if the line of viability is at , , or , then I realized this is Brawl and the line of viability is at .

Also all y'all with "secondary Meta Knights". "I play but I use for my bad matchups." "I play but I use for my bad matchups." Like damn son your character only HAS bad matchups.

Also lol when people say they have a main then have a secondary just for fighting . There are so many s in tournament that whatever character you use for fighting IS YOUR MAIN, even if you don't use them for every other character.

 

[Thor]

Ugh this tier list is so weird. The order is fine but like the lettering system. . .ugh.

Also I was about to ask if the line of viability is at , , or , then I realized this is Brawl and the line of viability is at .

Also all y'all with "secondary Meta Knights". "I play but I use for my bad matchups." "I play but I use for my bad matchups." Like damn son your character only HAS bad matchups.

Also lol when people say they have a main then have a secondary just for fighting . There are so many s in tournament that whatever character you use for fighting IS YOUR MAIN, even if you don't use them for every other character.

Nah, viability is lower than that. It goes to like, Diddy Kong, maybe lower. Or maybe the line of viability goes to ADHD, I'm not sure.

Those characters do have good MUs, but nobody realizes this unless they hit like Chudat or Will or something.

There are MK banned-events, as well as mid-tier events - one's main is not dictated solely by who they use to fight MK.

It may be like 95+% of the equation though.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I thought the line of "viability" was at Wolf. Even if that is the case, I only see SGJ playing Wolf. Djent, Wolf was one away from top 8 as well. I do agree that WOlf deserves to be higher on the list, but not extremely high. SSS, my main is DK, but I do use Wolf when my DK is in trouble, or just feel like it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

The line of viability is at Wario.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I main wario, dedede, kirby, jigglypuff, ness, and peach. I'm not very smart

 

[Thor]

Hey if people here are running out of things to rip on, trying heading to this thread before it's locked (which is hopefully ASAP) : http://smashboards.com/threads/the-tier-lists-are-wrong.354419/#post-16705601

And Peach is a good backup if you can play it versus ICs game 3 or game 5 in a set. Wario is also not... well, there are worse main choices... (you could main, like, Zelda...).