Official SWF Tier List v8

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

It's hard out here for them mid tiers

Why do I think this post was purely so you could show off your new Avatar?

 

[pidgezero_one]

Why do I think this post was purely so you could show off your new Avatar?

what new avatar?

 

[infiniteV115]

#nomakeupselfie #nofilter

 

[SSS]

So is that matchup chart accurate/still relevant?

 

[Djent]

It was never accurate, and has therefore always been of questionable relevance.

 

[SSS]

It was never accurate, and has therefore always been of questionable relevance.

Can someone please explain why Pikachu is even with MK while Diddy Kong and even like Marth aren't.

Can someone please explain why Marth/Dedede is considered bad for Marth.

Can someone please explain why Toon Link has a good matchup with Ice Climbers.

Also is your name like DJ Ent. Like Treebeard is gonna be spinning some mad tunes.

 

[Djent]

TBH I don't think any of those characters are even with MK. Several Pikachu and MK players argued the MU is even. Some people (myself included) weren't persuaded, but that discussion has been done to death honestly.

Diddy was only considered even before MKs knew what to do with bananas, and Marth...well, he's always sucked against MK IMO. His ground game is strong enough to rival MK's, but he loses most other aspects of the MU (even recovery, despite having some nifty traps against characters on the ledge).

IDK anything about Marth/D3. TL/IC seems even at best; I'm not sure why called it in favor of TL (@ DeLux ?).

Djent was originally onomatopoeia, and is now a music genre. Weird username, but hey, I was excited for Periphery's self-titled. I kind of wish it actually was related to musical trees.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Can someone please explain why Pikachu is even with MK while Diddy Kong and even like Marth aren't.

Can someone please explain why Marth/Dedede is considered bad for Marth.

Can someone please explain why Toon Link has a good matchup with Ice Climbers.

Pikachu is "even with MK" because ESAM said so and nobody cared enough to argue with him. Diddy isn't even with MK because when Diddy is offstage he's usually dead. Marth isn't even with MK because Marth is bad.

D3 beats Marth because Chain Grabs and Bair

Toon Link beats ICs because projectiles and swords

 

[SSS]

I kind of wish it actually was related to musical trees.

TREEEEEEE? I AM NO TREEEEEEEEE.

Toon Link beats ICs because projectiles and swords

That's. . .vague.

 

[mimgrim]

I think there are like only 2 characters that can really be argued to possibly be very close to even with MK, I would say those 2 would be Falco and Olimar. But I wouldn't say they quite make the cut of being even, just almost.

 

[Thor]

Pikachu is "even with MK" because ESAM said so and nobody cared enough to argue with him. Diddy isn't even with MK because when Diddy is offstage he's usually dead. Marth isn't even with MK because Marth is bad.

D3 beats Marth because Chain Grabs and Bair

Toon Link beats ICs because projectiles and swords

MK-Pikachu being even is dependent on the Pikachu being able to land KO moves. At the time ESAM must've thought that Pikachu can land KO moves well, so he said it was even. It amounts to MK trying to eat away at Pikachu's percent with tilts while Pikachu tries to get in, and if Pikachu gets in, things tend to hurt a lot for MK. ESAM has a quote about it somewhere on the Pikachu Q&A forum and it's rather recent, but I'm not going to go dig it up.

Marth has problems with MK, his recovery (including RCO lag) being one of them. He doesn't have very good anti-juggle options either (dair is not that great an anti-juggle tool, and MK uair is good at juggling - bait counter and you get a free nair or uair, or just uair him from a position where the counter-attack misses, since I believe that is possible).

That's. . .vague.

Essentially, Toon Link has good tools to rack up damage percentage without being grabbed [or even in grab range], which can also let him separate them and kill Nana, and then he still outranges PoPo. Make more sense?

 

[infiniteV115]

Falco ICs and Diddy have the best MUs with MK, but I don't think any of them can be called even.

 

[Djent]

I wish ICs were listed as -0.5 vs. MK. It seems that no matter the MU experience the MK has, (s)he still has a reasonable chance of losing. You don't see that for any other character, really (not even Falco/Diddy, who are probably your next best bets).

 

[Shaya]

Marth's best anti juggle tool is footstool jumps boiyo.
Marth v MK is probably MK's closest match up in the game in terms of nitty gritty option variance. Falco/ICs/Diddy have the best anti-MK approach games, which is what most people constitute as doing good against MK.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Marth has a lot of tools to counter a lot of MK's stuff.
Problem is that MK's stuff counter Marth's tools harder (most notably, juggling and recovering).

Marth vs DDD is quite even, but both characters share a common weakness: getting back from the ledge.
DDD hits harder, and, unlike Marth, has *reliable* kill options.
Marth can definitely win this Matchup by spacing VERY properly (still fearing Ftilt, Bair, Utilt...), but ultimately DDD can grab him and put him offstage and force him to recover.

 

[Gardex]

Believe in the Fox/MK hype

 

[Luco]

Isn't the TL - IC MU somewhat dependent on port prio or am I just mixing it up with Snake vs ICs?

 

[infiniteV115]

Barely. It matters in the SNake ICs MU because when Snake inputs neutral B, the nade is pulled on frame 1, and from then on anything that hits the nade will cause it to explode. This means Snake is grabbed/hit when holding a nade pretty often cause he can press the B button just a frame or 2 before getting grabbed/hit and now the ICs have to worry about it.

With TL his bomb takes quite a while to be pulled out, so for him to get hit/grabbed while holding a bomb...well the ICs player pretty much knows 100% that he's already holding a bomb, so it doesn't happen as often. It can't really be used as a quick escape option like nades can, just because it's so slow.

 

[Deleted member]

Toon Link beats ICs because projectiles and swords

Essentially, Toon Link has good tools to rack up damage percentage without being grabbed [or even in grab range], which can also let him separate them and kill Nana, and then he still outranges PoPo. Make more sense?

no

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

no

Do I need @ DeLux to come in here and lay down the ICs knowledge?

#ICsBowseris-4

 

[Deleted member]

ICs don't lose to TL.

 

[NH Cody]

Zan knows this from all his experience vs all those highly skilled west coast ic players.

 

[Djent]

We already said his name twice, once more for good measure: @ DeLux

[I'm not sure if this works like it does in Beetlejuice ]

 

[DeLux]

MK/TL/Peach/ZSS/ROB are tied for ICs worst MU imo

All of them are -4imo

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

MK/TL/Peach/ZSS/ROB are tied for ICs worst MU imo

All of them are -4imo

What happened to Bowser?

 

[DeLux]

What happened to Bowser?

Bowser is Even

 

[Deleted member]

Zan knows this from all his experience vs all those highly skilled west coast ic players.

I've played nakat vinnie and 9b.


what toon link has beaten a top ics? MJG failed against vinnie multiple times.

At best it's even but it is definitely at least -1 for TL.

 

[Tagxy]

Pikachu is "even with MK" because ESAM said so and nobody cared enough to argue with him. Diddy isn't even with MK because when Diddy is offstage he's usually dead. Marth isn't even with MK because Marth is bad.

I was probably as big an advocate as ESAM in both charts. And there was reasoning. I still believe the MU is even or slight Pikas favor at top level. But if you rely a lot on results youre not going to agree. [Among other things, my personal gripe with that is I dont think you really need analysis for a results based chart, just keep track them and create one.] I think in general MUs are better against MK than most people assume.

I made this randomly awhile ago to describe a thought I had. Its very basic and should ideally have one for each character.

Say this chart measures the ability of a character to succeed at various levels of play. Horizontal is skill level; Vertical is ability to succeed. Left chart is Brawl with Best Character (MK) = blue and Others = Red. Right is Melee with Best Character (Fox) = Blue and Others = Red, but its not important.

MK is very frustrating because even if you've worked hard with your character to be top level, high level MK and above are still a threat to you. But MK's improvements flatline for awhile as other characters are working hard, which is why youll see MKMaster take a top level non-MK to last hit while that same non-MK can still take sets from the worlds best. Brawl has never really advanced far to the level it can in this regard, but I can also see it being fairly frustrating since even the best players will be in thread of getting upset.

 

[DeLux]

I've played nakat vinnie and 9b.


what toon link has beaten a top ics? MJG failed against vinnie multiple times.

At best it's even but it is definitely at least -1 for TL.

MJG has beaten like every other Top IC though since the inception of the MU prior to playing Vinnie. I think it's a player thing more than a MU thing

Like, I know that MU well enough that I haven't lost to any TL but MJG, but from a tools standpoint the MU is just gross. Realistically and not trolling it's anywhere between 0 and -2.

 

[Deleted member]

MJG has beaten like every other Top IC though since the inception of the MU prior to playing Vinnie. I think it's a player thing more than a MU thing

What other ICs has he beaten besides you? Nakat? Esam? 9b? Kakera? Big D? Swordgard? I haven't heard of any of his other IC wins so enlighten me please

 

[Djent]

I still believe the MU is even or slight Pikas favor at top level.

You sure the graph on the right isn't your opinion of MK vs. Pikachu overtime?

On the left is just a picture of a boomerang, because this discussion keeps coming back.

 

[Tagxy]

lol, to be fair Im not the one bringing it up.

Also even though he didnt go into detail in the past Delux's had a good assessment of IC's, Toon Link that seems agreeable.

 

[pidgezero_one]

****ing flaoc

 

[Gardex]

His bread is off-limits

 

[SSS]

flaco pls.

 

[Shaya]

The thing about MK is he isn't that great at handling 225/315 angled moves at all, in fact he struggles a lot against them. It just so happens that basically only two characters have that though: Marth and Pikachu (his projectile); oh and Sheik's needles. He has absolute domination of vertical planes (even in width), but his horizontal reach is rather 'flat'.

 

[Minwu]

good 2 know tornado stopped existing

 

[NAKAT]

MJG and I have never played.

 

[Hippieslayer]

About Snake.

Snake kinda sucks for people who don't get that you really gotta know your throwing out random ****. If you just do the right thing all the time your game stales man, the opponent begins to catch out and Snake's weaknesses all go a glarin'.

That's why you gotta know how to do magic reads by throwing out seemingly stupid moves that somehow work. Ally for instance knows this, he do this thing of his where he just throws out some random **** -typically an aerial outta nowhere- which his opponent is magically drawn into and hit by. This is what you gotta master. I see MVD do this **** as well. All the Snake's who know their **** always do this right when they destroy other players. I feel like Snake is a lot worse a char for those who dunno this ****. He ain't like ****ing Metaknight in this regard. Not at all.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

let's all watch my fox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj_wheyM6xg (g1)
marth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L87enDfcUY / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vcJ2bEZK1w (g1)
and mew2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh4f3ylsJy4 / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6WvET6YM2c
and roy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5DLxaUesjE (g1)
(only watch the game 1s)

for no reason

pls

michigan is the most fun place to play

Holy **** thank you for the amazing videos.