Official SWF Tier List v8

Z'zgashi

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good 2 know tornado stopped existing
Tbh, if your character cant deal with tornado, your character is bad. Only characters who literally have no options against it are like Bowser/Mario and below, every other character can beat nado (or at least avoid it) by not being stupid. Nado is still good for keeping the opponent down during pressure or catching landings, but its more a pressure move now and not a spamable OP move that cant be stopped.
 
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Thor

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Tbh, if your character cant deal with tornado, your character is bad. Only characters who literally have no options against it are like Bowser/Mario and below, every other character can beat nado (or at least avoid it) by not being stupid. Nado is still good for keeping the opponent down during pressure or catching landings, but its more a pressure move now and not a spamable OP move that cant be stopped.
Samus has tether and is below Mario.

Hmm must mean we should move Samus above Mario.

(Not being entirely serious here...)
 
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Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

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Tbh, if your character cant deal with tornado, your character is bad. Only characters who literally have no options against it are like Bowser/Mario and below, every other character can beat nado (or at least avoid it) by not being stupid. Nado is still good for keeping the opponent down during pressure or catching landings, but its more a pressure move now and not a spamable OP move that cant be stopped.
All of Puff's Aerials beat Nado and she's below Mario

Stop stereotyping low tiers Z'z
 

Z'zgashi

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First off, Samus >>>>> Bowser/Mario, why she's below either of them is beyond me.

And Puff's everything loses to MK's everything else, so she still counts.
 

Minwu

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Tbh, if your character cant deal with tornado, your character is bad. Only characters who literally have no options against it are like Bowser/Mario and below, every other character can beat nado (or at least avoid it) by not being stupid. Nado is still good for keeping the opponent down during pressure or catching landings, but its more a pressure move now and not a spamable OP move that cant be stopped.
http://puu.sh/btIKr/9fc148d9ae.png

please pay attention to context when engaging snide, sarcastic jabs that i make
 
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Thor

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http://puu.sh/btIKr/9fc148d9ae.png

please pay attention to context when engaging snide, sarcastic jabs that i make
I don't get it.

Also I liked that comment after you made your post (and I liked yours too because it's funny and true, although one solid option is a little predictable in some ways, even if it's as good as tornado - think ESAM on the ledge over 100%) so if it somehow relates to me I think you're a little off-base.
 
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Minwu

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I didnt sense any sarcasm lol
tornado still exists
I don't get it.

Also I liked that comment after you made your post (and I liked yours too because it's funny and true, although one solid option is a little predictable in some ways, even if it's as good as tornado - think ESAM on the ledge over 100%) so if it somehow relates to me I think you're a little off-base.
Nah, Shaya wrote the post my tornado reply was directed at -- specifically the 225/315 degree angle thing. I just shot out the first hitbox I could think of in MK's moveset that blatantly covers it. There are more, even if we're just gonna ignore short hop aerials. Tornado is spammed far less often than 6 years ago for good reason obviously. My intent was to call out the conveniently ignored -- and useful -- option it provides; ergo, not really that bold of a claim on my part, yeah?
 

!BSP

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Tbh, if your character cant deal with tornado, your character is bad. Only characters who literally have no options against it are like Bowser/Mario and below, every other character can beat nado (or at least avoid it) by not being stupid. Nado is still good for keeping the opponent down during pressure or catching landings, but its more a pressure move now and not a spamable OP move that cant be stopped.
If MK is stupid, mario can Fsmash or usmash it. Last hit of Dair would work too;

Not that it matters.
 

pidgezero_one

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I use puff for the ICs matchup

I like how my phone knows how to autocorrect the capitalization of ICs

Man I miss when this thread was poppin'
 
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Thor

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I use puff for the ICs matchup

I like how my phone knows how to autocorrect the capitalization of ICs

Man I miss when this thread was poppin'
Back when nobody even tried to properly mod it?

I remember when I posted a slightly revised version of the tier list and besides a like, no one batted an eye.

I did something similar after the post was deleted and had an infraction less than a minute later.

If I could play Samus/ZSS properly I'd use her against ICs, only because after removing a stock via some sort of star KO (or even just separating them and killing Nana, then knocking Popo offstage), I'd remove the suit via the up-down-up taunt so I could use the armor pieces on later stocks. Sort of demoralize an ICs player with one or two stocks less that still has to deal with ZSS + suit piece(s).

Does anyone care to tell me about the Diddy Kong - Puff matchup? Someone on this thread about Jigglypuff and her relative viability in Smash 4 was saying that new Puff was broken and that Brawl Puff actually beat Diddy Kong. I checked the MU chart and it said -2. Anyone want to give me their take on the MU?
 
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greatbernard

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I figured Ice Climbers would rise up eventually. They're attacks have high priority, are powerful and deny approaches, on top of an overall relatively fast lag-free character.

You could mostly say the same about Olimar, who was also promoted. I figured in having a character so different from the other ones, Olimar couldn't be in the middle; he either had to be really high or really low.

Snake lowering didn't surprise me. He's a slow character vulnerable to a lot of things and new anti MK matchups generally made him a little obsolete.

The idea of Zelda being 2nd worst surprised me a bit. In casual play, she kicks ***. But in competitive play, I can see why her lack of air-game makes her a weak pick.
 

pidgezero_one

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This thread had to be moderated because my reign of tyranny of bad posts was long overdue to come to an end
 

Zan-

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Puff vs Diddy is wierd. If you have great air control you can do pretty well but puff struggles hard on the ground where diddy excels. Puff needs to get banana control or she will have a tough time in the matchup. Off stage diddy is dead vs puff. Easy gimps and edge guards. Since diddy's kill power isn't too good, puff will die at regular %s instead of early ones.
 

BlueXenon

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It's sad that this is the final tier list for brawl because a couple characters with lots of potential, Fox and Sheik, were extremely underdeveloped since they, mostly in theory, had some very difficult match ups. Fox had incredible speed, dangerous punishes, high kill power, and could quickly inflict a lot of damage. Despite having these really good traits, he, like Sheik, was one of the more difficult characters to use and was rarely represented in top level play. We don't even know if his match ups against the characters that could infinite him were really that bad in practice. I think Fox could have possibly been in the A- tier with Marth, Falco, and Snake.

Sheik had a quick-all use projectile, an extremely quick moveset that gave her an excellent punishing game, one of the best combo abilities in the game that allowed her to get her opponents to kill % in a short amount of time, as well as a long reaching DACUS and some decent edge guard tools. Her weaknesses included having a poor recovery, lacking good landing options, the combination of being a tall-fast falling-lightweight, as well as having below average kill power. Even though Sheik did have some high level representation thanks to players like Ed and Cross, there weren't enough top players who explored her and tried to improve her poor match ups. I think Sheik could have been in the C tier.
 

Djent

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Snake is still good. Having the best aggregate MU vs. MK/ICs earns him the 4th place spot behind Olimar.
Pikachu is better than 8th (if his MU spread is remotely correct). And that's even if he loses to MK.
Fox and Sheik are good, but Pika and ICs exist. It's not really a coincidence that people chose not to develop them.

This list is balls, but it's less balls than the ones before it. Also, Brawl is ****ing dead so it won't matter sadly.
 

Thor

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Snake is still good. Having the best aggregate MU vs. MK/ICs earns him the 4th place spot behind Olimar.
Pikachu is better than 8th (if his MU spread is remotely correct). And that's even if he loses to MK.
Fox and Sheik are good, but Pika and ICs exist. It's not really a coincidence that people chose not to develop them.

This list is balls, but it's less balls than the ones before it. Also, Brawl is ****ing dead so it won't matter sadly.
Snake's spread is no better than Diddy Kong's [or Marth's, or Pikachu's, or ICs or MK's :awesome: (I get you're talking about not ICs/MK)], unless you're going by some percentages I don't have, at which point probably.

For Fox, Sheik existing is also a problem.

I was looking at Peach's MU spread and realized that if MK and Snake didn't exist, she would actually be fairly good (at least even with ICs, even with Diddy/Olimar, Marth/Lucario are not fun but those are her only really problematic MUs (not that Falco/Dedede/Fox/GnW/a few other losing MUs are easy or anything), and she beats Wario...). Indeed a Peach/Dedede main absent MK actually has very solid MU coverage (really only having weak answers to Falco). I wonder how much more relevant Peach would be if the MK ban stuck...?

Speaking of which, why does Peach beat Wario? Is it some grab release shenanigans or a range thing or a CG or something? I thought Peach had trouble KOing and Wario's heavy... I went looking through Wario/Peach forums a little and didn't find anything on it either.

EDIT: So, Djent, what does your top 8 look like? I don't know where you said you'd put MK ICs Olimar Snake and Pikachu higher than 8th, so... who moves where?
 
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xDD-Master

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Sheik is not a problem for Fox. Its similar to ZSS, where you'd quickly judge because of a "pseudo"-infinite. But in reality both MUs are almost even for Fox, if the Fox put in enough work he might even beat ZSS 6:4 and goes even with Sheik. Fox is such a quick character, you will be lucky to catch him with ZSS Dsmash or Sheiks Ftilt (Which is easier to land than ZSSs DSmash though, but can be SDIed on ther other), and he can catch both characters solidely with UpSmash since both lack a solid downwards hitting move in the air, so they can get trapped by it easier than many other characters and thereore Fox has a reliable Kill Option vs them. Also both characters have trouble approaching him. ICs on ther other hand, is a troublesome MU for Fox, at highest level every Fox player should have a pocket character vs ICs, since the MU is so bad. It's not so bad, that any ICs will beat a good Fox, but as soon as someone knows what they are doing with ICs (Can do the CGs etc.), there is only a very slim chance for Fox to win.

Peach isnt even THAT bad vs MK & Snake either. Probably 6:4 both. Peach is definitely a good character, I have been saying that for sooo long (Just look at her movement and combo potential...), but it took some time until proven by Kie and maybe SlayerZ too, that this character needs to be watched out for. And she doesnt beat Wario, MU is even. But one thing: "Peach had trouble KOing and Wario's heavy" - GR to UpSmash kills around 100% or something IIRC, which is way many believe the MU is in Peaches favor, but actually she struggles getting grabs on him... like most of the cast does vs. a really good Wario.
 

Z'zgashi

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Nah man, obviously Yoshi is the best against MK/ICs lol. Remember back when he was considered -1 against MK and +1 against ICs? Good times.
 

Djent

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@ Thor Thor
S
:metaknight::popo:
A+
:olimar::snake:
A
:diddy::falco::pikachu2:
A-
:marth::wario::zerosuitsamus:

EDIT: These are in order. I take a more pessimistic opinion of Marth's spread than the MU Chart. I'm pessimistic about Pika's MUs and I still have him in 7th, which goes to show how silly I think his current placement is. On the other hand, I think ICs beat everyone except MK, Snake, Peach, and ROB.
 
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BlueXenon

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I was looking at Peach's MU spread and realized that if MK and Snake didn't exist, she would actually be fairly good (at least even with ICs, even with Diddy/Olimar, Marth/Lucario are not fun but those are her only really problematic MUs (not that Falco/Dedede/Fox/GnW/a few other losing MUs are easy or anything), and she beats Wario...). Indeed a Peach/Dedede main absent MK actually has very solid MU coverage (really only having weak answers to Falco). I wonder how much more relevant Peach would be if the MK ban stuck...?

Speaking of which, why does Peach beat Wario? Is it some grab release shenanigans or a range thing or a CG or something? I thought Peach had trouble KOing and Wario's heavy... I went looking through Wario/Peach forums a little and didn't find anything on it either.
You shouldn't trust the match up chart because a majority of match ups were barely played at a high level and since the best players tend to use the best characters, it makes mid tier characters appear to have worse match ups vs top tiers.

I think Peach loses to Falco a lot worse than DDD does, based off of watching Vex vs top Falco players and Kie vs top Falco players.

Peach's metaknight match up is more winnable than people previously thought a couple years ago. It's definitely worse than a -1 for Peach, but if Peach can stay grounded enough, she is capable of taking 2 stocks or even winning games vs top MKs. She has one of the better neutral games vs MK imo.

Peach does not beat Wario because of her grab release combos, and even if Peach did beat Wario, it would be for other reasons. Wario is not an easy character to grab.
 

Thor

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When will people realize that Diddy Kong is better than every character except MK and ICs?

Does ADHD have to win another Sktar?
Yes. I don't think Diddy Kong is the third best, but that's neither here nor there (it's more a byproduct of me not knowing who to put at third... based on how he can handle the top 2 and only really has Pikachu problems, and his incredibly strong tournament results over the history of Brawl, I'm almost tempted to just put Snake 3rd, but I don't think that's right either...).

And probably Apex 2015 too, at least based on Djent's list.
 
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