Official SWF Tier List v8

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Fox doesn't get bodied by MK at all ...

:059:
He really doesnt. SHTL can apply a lot of little damage to him while hes approaching you. When he nados, you can just full hop and shine stall through it. And mk dies at like 80ish% from usmash (idk the actual percent but its between 80 and 90). Also fox is a fast faller and can live quite a bit longer than mk, with some good di. He also has a lot of good mixup options with grabs and tilts and dairs. I would say where the MU really falls out of foxs favour is when he gets below the stage. In the same way that marth beats him out recovering from below, mk can do it even better. Alll he really has to do is jump near the edge and dair or nair, since foxs side b doesnt have a meteor hit like wolfs or falcos, and his up b doesnt have much of a stage spiking threat, like wolfs. I would say that foxs fair gives him the best chance of getting back even with the stage, and then he could shine stall and try and mix up his landing, and in this respect maybe mix up his overall recovery different from how wolf or falco might, but even still against a high level mk youll probably die regardless. Thats just my opinion from my standpoint, having never actually played a high level mk, and not really being a high level fox. If wusi or somebody would get on here itd be a lot better ha.
 

Luco

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I mean if no one's going to stop me :smash:
Anyone care to explain why we're still ranking Luigi over PT?
I'd say it's probably because of fatigue and the type weaknesses that hold the pokemon back. Aside from squirtle, the other two tend to get beaten out by a vast majority of the cast and can't really hold themselves close up or far away whereas Luigi has trouble getting in but once he does he can actually be really scary haha.

But I'm not too sure beyond that. :o
 

Thor

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He really doesnt. SHTL can apply a lot of little damage to him while hes approaching you. When he nados, you can just full hop and shine stall through it. And mk dies at like 80ish% from usmash (idk the actual percent but its between 80 and 90). Also fox is a fast faller and can live quite a bit longer than mk, with some good di. He also has a lot of good mixup options with grabs and tilts and dairs. I would say where the MU really falls out of foxs favour is when he gets below the stage. In the same way that marth beats him out recovering from below, mk can do it even better. Alll he really has to do is jump near the edge and dair or nair, since foxs side b doesnt have a meteor hit like wolfs or falcos, and his up b doesnt have much of a stage spiking threat, like wolfs. I would say that foxs fair gives him the best chance of getting back even with the stage, and then he could shine stall and try and mix up his landing, and in this respect maybe mix up his overall recovery different from how wolf or falco might, but even still against a high level mk youll probably die regardless. Thats just my opinion from my standpoint, having never actually played a high level mk, and not really being a high level fox. If wusi or somebody would get on here itd be a lot better ha.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Momentum_Cancelling

Fox dies at almost the same time off the sides as MK actually. MK lives longer in the best scenario Drill Rush momentum cancelling is impractical so Fox generally lives longer.

And MK KOs off the sides primarily (except grounded shuttle loop), so Fox doesn't live that long in this MU.

SHTL is like 8% which is kind of stupid, but most of Fox's stuff is unsafe on shield unfortunately (dair'ing the backside of the shield might work in 2010, but I think MK can just b-reverse shuttle loop OoS to punish this, which leaves autocancelled bair? I might be very wrong about this though...)

Fox can pivot grab nado - somewhat impractical but leads to pummel -> air release -> usmash which KOs MK early (I think it's usually 90-100, not 80-90 but whatever).

There's probably other stuff, but I agree getting a real Fox main in here would be a bit more interesting? Anyone want to tag TKD or something?
 
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ぱみゅ

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Actually I have heard that charizard can somewhat hold his own in a few MUs, but does this substantiate them being better than Luigi?
Honestly, I'm not sure. 6 years in and I never figured out how Luigi works.
 
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Luco

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Remember when we loved this game to the max like there'd be no tomorrow?

There was no tomorrow. :/ (I still love it like there's no... today, I guess)

Oh and Luigi just flailed about and hoped he was scary enough in your face to warrant you freaking out and giving him the game. ;)

Also back to Shoryukens. Cause he had them. >.>

I wish we had results I could use to tell you this but neither of them got that high. Though i'd suspect if you looked at results PT would come out on top. Reflex did quite a lot of work with them, but I don't remember any particularly notable Luigi players.
 

Tagxy

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I think as far as the viability of characters is concerned we should center 90% of our considerations around how a character does against MK + ICs. The better a character does against both of them, the more we should be inclined to disregard other, realistically meaningless soft-counters. As a an example I'd like to use this personal opinion of mine: Falco and Snake are better characters than Diddy Kong and Olimar. Snake is one of the few characters who can legit beat both characters on every legal stage and Falco is arguably MKs hardest matchup [take that as you will]. Diddy and Olimar both have solid disadvantages on every stage against MK + ICs which I think is worse than Falco getting ***** by one [IC] but doing fine against the other [MK]. I think Falco is a fantastic character with an amazing matchup spread, beating most characters and only really losing to ICs and Pikachu.

Neither Diddy nor Olimar can be the 3rd best character at this point in my book. In addition to their MK+IC issue, they lack advantageous matchups against all the other high tier characters except Pikachu.

S: :metaknight: :popo:
A: :falco: :snake:
B: :diddy: :olimar: :pikachu2:
C: :zerosuitsamus: :marth: :fox:

All the other characters are to all intents and purposes irrelevant in singles.

:059:
Im curious with chocos success in Japan if theres a reason you have her ranked in C?

Also late thoughts on pika, in retrospect while Pika certainly lost the ICs MU it wasnt really so bad as initially thought IMO myself included. Already known is that pikachu can camp with jolts and shoot through blizzard/easily knock back ice blocks. Another thing discovered sort of late though is that SH fair stops ICs most important dysync approaches, like popo following iceblock to grab. To describe this, during SH fair pika is high enough out of grab range while hovering at its peak, and has good weaving mobility while the hitbox stays out. The hitbox itself knocks back ice blocks, and will continue afterwards hitting popo if hes in range. Not that I expect ICs to run into this of course, the more important point being that iceblock desync approaches goal is to force opponents into the air where they get aerialed or read into a grab, so the utility in this allows pika to maintain a grounded zoning game. From their the MU plays out as youd expect, a long-term standoff with ICs having an overall stronger punish game. SH fair is actually an ok approach but is susceptible to getting punished or grabbed since instead of weaving as the opponent enters pikas zone I have to weave into and out of the opponents, so even if (random number) the success rate is above 50% the payoff is not worth it with the risk of getting punished. But I guess if youre a smarter player than your opponent it's at least something.

:diddy::olimar::popo: were pikas 3 "do not want" MUs in that order. Of course those are all MUs youd expect to see in bracket, but pika could at least do well enough to beat the ones not at the same level as him which I guess is true of any relevant character. Its possible to switch diddy and olimar in practice, but I feel if their metagame developed more diddy would have become a bit worse as he exposed pikas poor item/banana handling game and olimar a bit better as pika got better at using his multihit and extended hitbox moves to outprioritize pikmin.
 
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Mmm i know vex has beaten some mks, but no one of like top caliber like zero. Not that it matters now...lol. but yeah its next to impossible to beat a really good mk with DDD. Hes just too fat
 

Thor

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Mmm i know vex has beaten some mks, but no one of like top caliber like zero. Not that it matters now...lol. but yeah its next to impossible to beat a really good mk with DDD. Hes just too fat
Actually he's too slow. If Falco (or Pikachu) had Dedede's weight but kept all their other attributes they would probably have slightly better MUs only cuz they'd be harder to kill but still be able to do what they do to MK - imagine if MK had to be build Falco to like 160% for every KO.

And Snake is fat but he keeps up. So... it's Dedede's frame data that messes him over.

P.S: While I know hypotheticals are useless, what do people think the Dedede MK MU would be if Dedede could CG MK?
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

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Thor

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Uhh, I think you should also include SIZE of the characters into that. Flatly increasing someone's weight doesn't make them more comboable, it just makes them not die.
Technically it MIGHT because they aren't sent as far at low percents thus leaving them more vulnerable to follow ups.

But size does (technically) make it somewhat harder to hit Pikachu compared to King Dedede.

And I realized Gheb_01's real problem with heavy = fat: not enough swag.

Snake's hella fat.

Fixed.

[Ok now I need to wash my hands, clean my keyboard, and thank Odin for his mercy in not killing me on the spot.]
 
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xDD-Master

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My end of 2014 Tier List would look something like this (Not really ordered in Tiers):

[Assuming 3-7 Stages legal]

S
: MK/ICs
A: Diddy/Snake/Falco
B: Marth/Olimar/ZSS/Pikachu/Fox/Wario
C: DDD/Wolf/Pit/Peach/Lucario
Do not care: Rest
 
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