I don't think Olimar loses to MK harder. It's about the same when the MK knows the match up. ICs lose worse if the MK bothered to learn the SoPo match up, but MKs rarely bothered to learn any match up so why would I expect that.
And the rest of the cast you didn't mention. There's a reason you have Delux saying **** like "I can't beat GnW and D3 with ICs," it's harder than it looks when a player bothers to learn ICs game.
I'd expect ICs to do better than Oli with those stagelist and when the best Olimar players don't show up too.
It's gr8 cause I've seen IC mains say it's an even match up. I don't believe that, but I do believe going only Olimar is much more effective than going only ICs in tournaments.
But then again, you don't believe Olimar does better than ICs in most match ups so I can see where you're coming from. I just disagree with you.
Nah I lived in two areas where people bother to learn the ICs match-up. There were other regions that did too, then those regions stop playing Brawl around the end of 2011 because P:M was out and popular and MK was still not banned.
Also I probably think ICs win more match ups then you think, but I also think Olimar does better than you think in all match ups across the board.
If you're going to have MK be legal, I believe you shouldn't be tailoring a ruleset to make him bearable to most people. If you don't believe MK is broken enough to be banned, then leave the stagelist the same as it once was.
The current ruleset is "We admit MK is broken, but we don't want him banned cause that wouldn't be fair to my MK friends that never bothered to learn another character."
I will never agree with that ruleset. Also I don't believe and MK banned tier list would look any different than mine if you took MK off my list. Can't really say the same about other list.
People started to believe ICs were in their own tier as other not MK maining top players either quit or just used MK shortly after 2011. Also during the end of 2011 stagelist were made in heavy favoritism for ICs.
If you guys didn't want to play ICs game, you shouldn't have buffed them by removing all the stages. Playing against MK on Rainbow Cruise is more fun than playing against ICs on FD.
Playing as or against ICs is nothing like any other match up in the game, it's a very boring match up to watch and play. I personally am very happy ICs aren't in Smash 4, so we don't have to deal with a character that doesn't play Brawl. ICs play "who's going to screw up or choke first."
#afk
1. You literally talked your way around, but didn't actually address, the most important point I made:
We don't design a tier list for the ruleset we want, we design one for the ruleset as it is. DeLux mentioned elsewhere changing it up for Apex 2015, but if it doesn't stick, it doesn't matter - the tier list is to be constructed with top level play in mind using the current ruleset.
You can disagree all you want, but your opinion about it is then irrelevant - Xyro can make all the tier lists with all the rules he wants, if his tier lists don't list MK in them, then in the context of Apex 2015 [in which I did not read has an "MK is banned" clause in the ruleset], it's
worthless.
2. Learn the DDD MUs then. I've seen footage of Vex beating NAKAT and Vinnie - both could be considered top players [I guess - I feel like they're closer to second tier of the top nowadays but w/e] but both also dropped CGs against him - yeah he's beaten good ICs, but they each dropped CGs and both sets were close. That MU is listed as -3 for a reason - it's probably -2 instead, but if you lose the MU, you have a lot of room to improve against them, as a player, or both (but doesn't everyone?). Or else direct me to a Dedede god you've faced that's recorded, since I'm interested in seeing why you think he's so difficult. The GnW ICs MU is ICs-favored as well (if you have vids of that too, I'm interested).
Or do ICs players john about how hard ICs-Falco is, and I've just never seen the other half (so to speak)?
3. You have grab invulnerability for a second after being thrown or grab released - ICs CGs wouldn't exist, and I'm sure they'd avoid (or patch) wobbling, so your only options would be the locks (that as you mentioned earlier, are SDIable). ICs then don't have a reason to not be in Smash 4 besides hardware limitations. I may not enjoy being chain-grabbed by ICs but I want them back for Smash 4 since them CGing would be a thing of the past.
4. For what it's worth...
I'm fairly certain Nairo understands the SoPo MU, and yet he lost to 9B at SKTAR 3. There are other examples of people losing to ICs even if they know the MU (unless it's straight from his mouth, you can't honestly expect me to believe that M2K wouldn't know an MU against a top tier, even if it's the secondary MU of SoPo vs ICs, and he's dropped sets to them.)
And I did mention other parts of the cast, but as I said, you're not going to hit them too often, and some of those characters do fine against Olimar but not ICs (Fox, Ness, perhaps Pit?... there are a few others but those are the ones I can think of that have a potentially relevant player base). I can't think of any notable GnW and could only name one DDD that would make an impact at a national like Apex (and I could name at least one Peach, perhaps 2). But given that your odds of hitting such a name are very low relative to hitting another MK, the MK/X MU is more important. And that's where our opinions diverge. So I guess we're at an impasse then.
Olimar is bodied by MK? Sincewhen? I always thought Olimar was one of the few characters that actually did better against MK then most.
I think in terms of fighting MK, Olimar is a bit lower than most the other top tiers at fighting him (namely I think Pikachu, Snake, Falco, ICs, and Diddy Kong perform better against him, albeit very slightly). I say that as in there's some like 50-50 (mostly stage dependent) and 55-45 MUs whereas I think MK Olimar is closer to 60-40 (or 57-43 or whatever). However others clearly disagree with me, and you may be among those who disagree, hence our difference in opinion. I don't think I said bodies (if I did, I was exaggerating) but I think MK wins it more solidly than other high-tier MUs he has.
