Official SWF Tier List v8

[Karaoke Man]

He really doesnt. SHTL can apply a lot of little damage to him while hes approaching you. When he nados, you can just full hop and shine stall through it. And mk dies at like 80ish% from usmash (idk the actual percent but its between 80 and 90). Also fox is a fast faller and can live quite a bit longer than mk, with some good di. He also has a lot of good mixup options with grabs and tilts and dairs. I would say where the MU really falls out of foxs favour is when he gets below the stage. In the same way that marth beats him out recovering from below, mk can do it even better. Alll he really has to do is jump near the edge and dair or nair, since foxs side b doesnt have a meteor hit like wolfs or falcos, and his up b doesnt have much of a stage spiking threat, like wolfs. I would say that foxs fair gives him the best chance of getting back even with the stage, and then he could shine stall and try and mix up his landing, and in this respect maybe mix up his overall recovery different from how wolf or falco might, but even still against a high level mk youll probably die regardless. Thats just my opinion from my standpoint, having never actually played a high level mk, and not really being a high level fox. If wusi or somebody would get on here itd be a lot better ha.

Let this set be an example of what happens when you try to heavy camp MK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PWiTT5isNs


Literally the only way Fox is going to beat MK with a defensive playstyle like the example shown is if MK is either super aggro, or Fox has a strong lead. Either way, the issue isn't necessarily cause' MK can well...do what he did; It's because Fox is limiting his own options.

What I mean by that is that (from what I can tell) camping with the lasers is the general go-to strategy for Fox, and don't get me wrong, it is effective, but it's not all of what Fox is about. SHTL can apply some damage if he approaches and tbh, it won't even do that much. If he doesn't this playstyle flat-out doesn't work very well, but that doesn't mean Fox shouldn't switch it up. Fox can camp, but he's mainly renowned for being a Speedy character, because of his more swift attributes.

Of course, running straight up to him (or anyone) depending on how far you are from the opponent, is counter-productive. I say this because while Fox has the 3rd fastest run speed, running puts him in a position where he has few options to deal any kind of pressure. One would think, that this would make things rather hopeless for Fox buuut, I believe the saying "Walk don't run" applies here.

Fox's walk speed is also like top 5 in the game I believe. When walking (as I'm sure you know this), Fox retains access to all of his options, while still pressuring the opponent with unpredictability. Regardless of the character you're fighting, Fox needs to stay close to the ground. The Full Hop dair approach barely even works anymore as now, it pretty much just relies on if the drill kick will sheild poke before the move ends or not. More often than not, it ends with Fox getting blasted soooo, that's a no-go for the most part. This, however is what will make Fox's grab game even more important. Even if it isn't safe to Dair MK on the ground; this doesn't apply to using it on MK (or whomever) while they are in the air.

The key here isn't really to outcamp MK, but to outspeed him.


Just my quick 2 cents...and a nickel.

 

[Z'zgashi]

The reason Fox cant heavy camp MK is because Fox is Z Tier.

 

[M@v]

Fox and MK's dash speeds are basically identical as an FYI. The matchup was basically 6:4 MK for the most part. Upsmash lasers and fair were godlike vs mk, especially fair, but MK can impose his will on fox up close way too easily by out prioritizing everything. I think fox has an easier time getting back vs him than falco though. The last big brawl Fox vs MK set I had was vs Korn last year; wish it was recorded so you could see the matchup with moderately high level players on both sides.

Also, some info about Fox's grab release on MK:
The grab release guaranteed upsmash, regrab, or dash attack. If you were frame perfect and boost grabbed you could guarantee another air release, but it was nigh impossible to do, because you need to perfectly predict when mk would release.
Lastly, the air release only worked one of two ways; 1. they hit jump while mashing 2.You grabbed them out of the air and immediately pummeled. This pummel for some reason would cause mk to not ever touch the ground and register an air release. You can tell he would air release based on his animation while being grabbed.

 

[Thor]

Also, some info about Fox's grab release on MK:
The grab release guaranteed upsmash, regrab, or dash attack. If you were frame perfect and boost grabbed you could guarantee another air release, but it was nigh impossible to do, because you need to perfectly predict when mk would release.
Lastly, the air release only worked one of two ways; 1. they hit jump while mashing 2.You grabbed them out of the air and immediately pummeled. This pummel for some reason would cause mk to not ever touch the ground and register an air release. You can tell he would air release based on his animation while being grabbed.

Funny, I thought immediate pummel worked to force air release regardless of where you grabbed him... or is that possibly a thing on an advantageously tilting Lylat/part of Yoshi's or am I just crazy?

 

[M@v]

The slopes do help since they can give you more time and space to do it . Like I said, its kinda weird with how it works with fox. With MK, you have to grab him OUT OF THE AIR and immediately pummel. If you grab him on the ground and do it, it won't work.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

The reason Fox cant heavy camp MK is because Fox is Z Tier.

Finally, SOMEONE gets it.

 

[KVLTofMetal]

Finally, SOMEONE gets it.

Or nah

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

If you don't realize that Fox is Z tier then you should probably stick with Melee.

 

[Thor]

If you don't realize that Fox is Z tier then you should probably stick with Melee.

If you don't realize Fox is SSS tier when compared to Puff in Brawl, you should stick with Melee.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

If you don't realize Fox is SSS tier when compared to Puff in Brawl, you should stick with Melee.

Fixed that for you.

Well I mean obviously you can make any character seem better when you do it on the scale of an SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS tier character. Fox may be SSS tier on that scale, but every other character is at least SSSSSSSSS.

 

[Thor]

Well I mean obviously you can make any character seem better when you do it on the scale of an SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS tier character. Fox may be SSS tier on that scale, but every other character is at least SSSSSSSSS.

No no I was using the current scale that maxes out at SS for MK.

Fox is so much better than Puff by comparison we literally have to break the scale and add another S.

It's like this:

SSS:
SS:
S:
~A:
B-Y=who cares?
Z =

I should have also mentioned that Marth is pretty much A-tier compared to Puff.

TL;DR - Fox SSS tier, Marth A tier, Puff Z tier.

 

[Luco]

I love you guys <3

Also what you're telling me is that MK also breaks the air release rule on some characters unless specific conditions were met? I know ZSS can get an air release on MK for some nice damage; so why does this happen with fox? :/

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

No no I was using the current scale that maxes out at SS for MK.

Fox is so much better than Puff by comparison we literally have to break the scale and add another S.

It's like this:

SSS:
SS:
S:
~A:
B-Y=who cares?
Z =

I should have also mentioned that Marth is pretty much A-tier compared to Puff.

TL;DR - Fox SSS tier, Marth A tier, Puff Z tier.

Well first of all you forgot SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS tier, which is , and

Secondly you can't just compare one character, if you're going to relabel the tier list by relation to Puff, it would actually look lile:

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS tier: , and
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS:
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS:
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS - SSSSSSSSS: who cares?
SSS: , , and

 

[KVLTofMetal]

If you don't realize that Fox is Z tier then you should probably stick with Melee.

How about No
So is the BBR actually going to do another Tier list?

 

[Shaya]

If there's a reason to after Apex maybe.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

If there's a reason to after Apex maybe.

i.e. no.

 

[Thor]

i.e. no.

But what if ADHD wins while the Olimars do poorly?

Or do you think that's insufficient reason to put Diddy [Demon] Kong above Olimar?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Is moving 1 character up 1 spot based on 1 tournament really worth making a whole new tier list?

If Diddy wasn't put above Olimar after SKTAR (or basically the entire history of the game other than Apex 2012 where Diddy Kongs did better than Olimars) then 1 more tournament isn't going to make a difference.

 

[Thor]

Is moving 1 character up 1 spot based on 1 tournament really worth making a whole new tier list?

If Diddy wasn't put above Olimar after SKTAR (or basically the entire history of the game other than Apex 2012 where Diddy Kongs did better than Olimars) then 1 more tournament isn't going to make a difference.

Depends on how awful the Olimars do, how well ADHD does, and if any other Diddys make an impact.

If 2 Diddys made it into top 8, I would say possibly yes. Though as you said, for one tournament result? Probably not.

 

[B0NK]

S: Meta Knight
A: Olimar, Snake, Falco, Diddy, Ice Climbers
B: Zero Suit Samus, Marth, Pikachu, Wario, Lucario
C: ROB, King Dedede, Game&Watch
D: Wolf, Fox, Kirby, Pit, Donkey Kong, Toon Link, Peach
E: Luigi, Sheik, Sonic, Ness, Lucas
F: Ike, Yoshi, Pokémon Trainer
G: Samus, Bowser, Mario, Captain Falcon
H: Link, Zelda, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf

#afk #shootme

 

[KVLTofMetal]

S: Meta Knight
A: Olimar, Snake, Falco, Diddy, Ice Climbers
B: Zero Suit Samus, Marth, Pikachu, Wario, Lucario
C: ROB, King Dedede, Game&Watch
D: Wolf, Fox, Kirby, Pit, Donkey Kong, Toon Link, Peach
E: Luigi, Sheik, Sonic, Ness, Lucas
F: Ike, Yoshi, Pokémon Trainer
G: Samus, Bowser, Mario, Captain Falcon
H: Link, Zelda, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf

#afk #shootme

#shot

 

[Thor]

I can't fathom why anyone would put ICs below Olimar... is there some footage of Denti vs Vinnie that's not Denti getting wrecked, because I've seen two of their sets and both were ridiculously one-sided.

... Or this is some old tier list I just don't recognize, where ICs weren't realized to be as good?

[I take issue with other things, but that point most stands out to me.]

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

B0NK is an ICs main

ICs mains always underrate their own character.

 

[KVLTofMetal]

B0NK is an ICs main

ICs mains always underrate their own character.

They actually become solid high mid tier if you ban the handoff.

 

[Thor]

They actually become solid high mid tier if you ban the handoff.

If you ban the handoff, how does the MK MU change? Can MK just play lame if they actually approach with attacks, and thus it's like -3? Or do ICs just go for the basic dthrow CG into fair meteor smash and the MU looks roughly the same?

 

[infiniteV115]

The MU is definitely not the same lmao. You can tech by the 3rd dthrow fair (from 0) and you can also SDI the fairs. So even assuming perfect reaction and tech chase from the ICs, eventually you'll just end up offstage

ICs without CGs is like at least -2 against MK

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

The MU is definitely not the same lmao. You can tech by the 3rd dthrow fair (from 0) and you can also SDI the fairs. So even assuming perfect reaction and tech chase from the ICs, eventually you'll just end up offstage

ICs without CGs is like at least -2 against MK

why is an ICs that isn't me doing Dthrow->Fair from 0?

 

[B0NK]

The MU is definitely not the same lmao. You can tech by the 3rd dthrow fair (from 0) and you can also SDI the fairs. So even assuming perfect reaction and tech chase from the ICs, eventually you'll just end up offstage

ICs without CGs is like at least -2 against MK

Hilariously, they can still CG after the 3rd d-throw.

Grab the opponent before they hit the ground, it's not easy to keep up but it's definitely possible. As long as there's two of them and you can grab hitstun, they'll be able to chain grab lol. (Smash 4's mechanic change is a decent way to stop it, but rip ICs, definitely for the better).

Also ICs are good, just not as good as everyone thinks as of recent years.

I think you guys forgot a time when there were stages and ICs rarely placed Top 8 at nationals. Olimar's match ups are better than ICs, it's that simple.

 

[B0NK]

I can't fathom why anyone would put ICs below Olimar... is there some footage of Denti vs Vinnie that's not Denti getting wrecked, because I've seen two of their sets and both were ridiculously one-sided.

... Or this is some old tier list I just don't recognize, where ICs weren't realized to be as good?

[I take issue with other things, but that point most stands out to me.]

I love how you said ICs beats Oli as if that's how you decide tier placements.

Gotta look at all the match ups homie.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I think you guys forgot a time when there were stages and ICs rarely placed Top 8 at nationals. Olimar's match ups are better than ICs, it's that simple.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHH you were making a tier list for 2011. Gotcha.

 

[B0NK]

I was making a tier list for a ruleset I agree with.

Yes, if you put ICs on their best stages always, just so that they can still lose to MK, then they become 2nd best.

 

[infiniteV115]

Misread Thor's post lol

 

[Deleted member]

if we making tier list i been holding this in for so long

SS: MK
S: ICs
A+: Diddy, Olimar
A: Falco, ZSS, Snake, Marth
B: Pikachu, D3, Wario
C+: Lucario, Peach, TL
C: Fox, ROB, Wolf, GW
C-: Sheik, Pit, DK
D: Ness, Kirby, Lucas, Ike, Sonic, Yoshi
E: Luigi, Pokemon Trainer
F: Mario, Samus, Link, Bowser, Ganon, Zelda, Jiggs, Falcon

 

[Z'zgashi]

I liked it up until you put Lucas over Yoshi, thats insulting tbh.

 

[Thor]

I love how you said ICs beats Oli as if that's how you decide tier placements.

Gotta look at all the match ups homie.

Olimar is bodied by ICs and loses to MK harder than ICs. Olimar also loses to Falco while ICs crush him.

Olimar does better against Pikachu and Snake, and I guess ZSS? That's basically it. The random TL, ROB, or Peach might show up but so can a random Fox, Game and Watch, or Pit. The rest probably don't matter.

ICs also historically place better than Olimars. SKTAR 3, Apex 2014 are two notable examples that are recent.

ICs > Olimar.

MK/ICs MUs is a large factor in how I look at the tier lists, because if you can't beat the character who zero-deaths you for free, you're hosed, and if you can't beat the best character in the game, you're hosed. I don't mean a winning MU, I just mean keep up enough to try to get a victory. That's why I specifically referenced ICs vs Olimar - it's a key MU that Olimar loses.

Unless you live in an area where they ban handoffs and whatnot - then yeah, I can see why ICs are lower on your list.

You mention making it for a ruleset you agree with, but it's about the current ruleset, not the ruleset you'd like to see - or else for some, MK wouldn't appear on the list... and that list would be inaccurate because it wouldn't factor him in. The same issue applies here.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

if we making tier list i been holding this in for so long

SS: MK
S: ICs
A+: Diddy, Olimar
A: Falco, ZSS, Snake, Marth
B: Pikachu, D3, Wario
C+: Lucario, Peach, TL
C: Fox, ROB, Wolf, GW
C-: Sheik, Pit, DK
D: Ness, Kirby, Lucas, Ike, Sonic, Yoshi
E: Luigi, Pokemon Trainer
F: Mario, Samus, Link, Bowser, Ganon, Zelda, Jiggs, Falcon

I was with you until you displayed a gross misunderstanding of the low tier characters.

 

[Deleted member]

I was with you until you displayed a gross misunderstanding of the low tier characters.

falcon sux

 

[Thor]

falcon sux

He's DEFINITIELY referring to your position on Jiggs, but I also disagree. Jab grabs.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

He's DEFINITIELY referring to your position on Jiggs, but I also disagree. Jab grabs.

I was actually referring to both Falcon and Jiggs tyvm.

Completely serious no trolling (omg what a twist) I can see no justification for putting Puff and Falcon below the Triforce Trio that isn't simply unfamiliarity with the characters.

 

[Deleted member]

I was actually referring to both Falcon and Jiggs tyvm.

Completely serious no trolling (omg what a twist) I can see no justification for putting Puff and Falcon below the Triforce Trio that isn't simply unfamiliarity with the characters.

I play ganon, falcon, and jiggs, and I have to say that it doesnt really matter on their placement cause they all suck ass. But falcon is just ****ty. If you even look at tournament results, you can still see a more recent placing and people more active with ganon thaan with jiggs/falcon. DLA got 9th at phoenix saga 6th last year with ganon only. That set with vermanubis vs salem showed how much ganon can keep up with ZSS. Jiggs may go above ganon but i refuse to believe falcon is better than ganon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hto-YQgh6k&feature=youtu.be&t=17m48s

pls