Official SWF Tier List v8

[pidgezero_one]

I thought ike climbers were banned?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Man I havent done one of these in a long time; well, here's my final Brawl tier list opinion that I'll ever make:

TOP TIER
S:
A:

HIGH TIER
B:
C:

MID TIER
D:
E:

LOW TIER
F:
G:

BOTTOM TIER
H:


*I actually think Link is G Tier but I couldn't not put him in Hyrule Tier.


RIP Brawl

 

[Gardex]

Not a bad list. I'd move around a couple of characters, as well as fuse G and H, but for the most part I agree with it

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Man I havent done one of these in a long time; well, here's my final Brawl tier list opinion that I'll ever make:

TOP TIER
S:
A:

HIGH TIER
B:
C:

MID TIER
D:
E:

LOW TIER
F:
G:

BOTTOM TIER
H:


*I actually think Link is G Tier but I couldn't not put him in Hyrule Tier.


RIP Brawl

Switch Marth and Falco and this is a pretty good list imo

Finally someone who agrees that Diddy is better than Olimar

I like that Puff isn't Bottom tier

 

[-LzR-]

Marth has no business in the same tier as Diddy, Oli and Snake. He is likely worse than Falco, Zss and Wario.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Marth has a sword, your argument is invalid.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Marth has no business in the same tier as Diddy, Oli and Snake. He is likely worse than Falco, Zss and Wario.

You're Avatar Looks Kind Of Like Mine

 

[Djent]

Marth is bad, but not worse than ZSS/Wario. Well, maybe Wario. ZSS is also overrated (seriously, who does she beat? (DON'T say ICs)).

 

[BlueXenon]

@ Djent Do you pay attention to tournament results outside the U.S.? ZSS is very good and gets results that justify her being in high tier.
She doesn't need to solidly beat any important characters to be very good, what counts is that all her match ups are realistically winnable.

 

[Djent]

You ask that as if I haven't cluttered the Japanese Video Thread in past months (years, even).

Anyway, I'm well aware that ZSS gets results. I'm also aware that she, more than any other high-tier character besides Marth, has attracted an extraordinary amount of talent over the years. Choco, V115, and Salem alone outmatch the talent pool of other similarly-ranked characters, and that's not even counting the numerous others who are slightly beneath those 3 in skill, or are otherwise no longer playing Brawl.

Then I look at her actual matchups. Who do I think she beats?

Definitely loses:
(No argument here, I assume?)
(Choco beat 9B the first time they played, and never again. Salem won't even pick ZSS vs. Vinnie anymore).
(I get that it's only a small advantage, but it's real.)
(One of the few times I think ESAM is not exaggerating.)

Probably loses:
(After watching Choco body Nietono and Brood, I'm not as confident that this is terrible. But in the past, it looked bad.)
(I don't think Diddy beats anyone that badly, but he seems to do well vs. ZSS. See: ADHD vs. Salem, Cyve vs. Quik.)
(I don't know much about Wario's MUs, but the MU chart and most people I've heard from think Wario wins this. That would make it one of the few (the only?) high-level MUs Wario wins. Keep that in mind.)

Evenish:
(This match can always go either way, and I've heard both sides say it's even.)
(I thought she actually beat Marth until I watched Leon vs. V115 and spoke to V himself about it.)

TL;DR: You have a character that's even vs. half the top tiers in the best-case scenario, beats no one, and loses to half or most of the relevant chars. To put this in perspective, Marth and Wario definitely go even with most good characters not named MK and ICs, including some of those that ZSS loses to. It's tempting to rate her high because of performance, but when you think about her actual MU spread (the only thing a tier list should ever be based off of), an unusual concentration of talent becomes the most plausible explanation for her high representation.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

(I don't know much about Wario's MUs, but the MU chart and most people I've heard from think Wario wins this. That would make it one of the few (the only?) high-level MUs Wario wins. Keep that in mind.)

I don't think I've ever seen this MU ever occur at any level.

 

[Thor]

I don't think I've ever seen this MU ever occur at any level.

I've seen it occur because I was trolling these dudes and picked ZSS vs one guy's Wario. It was free because he kept running into dsmash

Then I played the other side since he said the MU was terrible. Didn't get hit by dsmash once and KO'd with Waft 3 times, mainly by air camping and trolling with the bike until it was half-charged, just so I could KO him with a gigantic fart

But I'll admit I've never ever seen this MU at any (relevant) level either.

 

[BlueXenon]

@ Djent That was a great post :D

And here is a high level match of Wario vs ZSS

 

[Luco]

You're Avatar Looks Kind Of Like Mine

"Your"

:3

I rather like that tier list actually, I was bugged about the placings of Pikachu, Falco and ZSS as I felt their positions should have switched (as in, none of them felt like they should have been the 'worst' of the three) but in the end i couldn't figure out any other placement I liked so I guess it works out.

Also, as far as I know, tier list is meant to be a realistic evaluation of character viability. Results are a good measure of how far a character can go, so I've never seen any reason why just MUs or just placings should determine a character's position, unless something major here in terms of perspective has changed since I was around last. :/

Like yeah, I get that if you're amazingly good with a char then you're just amazingly good and anyone at that level would destroy with anyone; but often when this happens it precedes changes in our MU ratings because we find out that there's actually ways to manipulate some characters to work through certain MUs.

 

[infiniteV115]

/ - Absolutely no way in hell ZSS wins either of these MUs. 45:55 at best for ZSS, but if you asked me to assign a value to both I wouldn't be sure what to say...would probably say 43:57 for each lel
- I really really strongly feel that there's no way in hell ZSS wins this MU and I used to think it was her worst, but I'm not so sure anymore. I still think she loses for sure, also 45:55 at best, probably 40:60 at worst. If there's a possibility that ZSS wins this MU then holy **** I've been playing this wrong my entire life
- I really strongly feel that ZSS loses this, but not necessarily by a lot. I'd say this is probably 45:55, even at best for ZSS, 40:60 at worst but I definitely don't think this is as bad as the Oli MU...again I don't really think she wins but to be fair I could be biased cause I've always had trouble with this MU and I have barely any experience in it. I lost twice to False's Wario at SKTAR 2, haven't lost to any others but I haven't really faced any other great ones in singles...unless LOE1 is great.

Every other MU is at worst 45:55 imo, at this point it's really just a matter of how good I could see it being for ZSS, as well as how strongly I feel about where it falls on the range of 45:55 - 55:45

- Some mixed feelings on this, I'm less sure about this MU than any of the others on this list. I could see it being anywhere between 45:55 and 55:45 and if it weren't for the overwhelmingly convincing results on this MU, I would definitely be saying ZSS wins 55:45 at least. Unfortunately for ZSS mains, Salem has never beaten (ie won a set against) NAKAT/Vinnie's ICs in bracket. Vinnie's like 6-0 against Salem (or more by now maybe), dunno how many times Salem has played NAKAT. NAKAT did lose to Shaky's ZSS at Apex 2014 but he also lost to Z's Pikachu so maybe it's fair to say he wasn't playing his best (I don't think he was, his best probably wouldn't even lose to ESAM's Pikachu lol). Shaky did play ZSS against Vinnie at SKTAR 3 but he lost (Vinnie undefeated against ZSS I'm pretty sure). Pretty sure NR has never beaten any top level ICs in a complete set except for maybe ESAM's? I know he lost to 9B, I've only seen him play a game against ESAM's ICs, which NR won, but that was when he was already up 5-0 against his Pikachu, which isn't usually what happens between those two. Choco beat 9B once but the record is in 9B's favour. I've never played any top level ICs except for NAKAT at GOML, I got 3-1'd...that was also the only tournament where I've ever lost to Chris Fisch (despite it being 1 stock which is good for ZSS), and it was a 3-0 at that, so maybe more not-best play lol. So TL;DR history on this MU, results are mostly solidly in ICs favour, some anomalies in there tho. I could still see ZSS winning but until I start doing it I'll concede to it being a -1 for ZSS. Only 45:55 tho.

- Was generally considered +1 for Diddy, now leaning more towards even but still Diddy's favour if anything. imo either 50:50 or Diddy wins 55:45...not out of the question that ZSS wins 55:45 but I don't think she does. ADHD has winning record on Salem, Cyve is like 13-0 against Quik...I've never played ADHD but I'm 2-0 against Zinoto and 1-0 against Player-1. Haven't lost to a Diddy since I was a little scrublet but barely ever play this MU in tourney.

- This MU is overrated as ****. I've felt this way since like 2012 btw. People used to think this was like 70:30 Falco's favour, lol FOH. I think it's even, 45:55 at worst for ZSS, ZSS might even win but I think if it's not even, it's more likely Falco's adv than ZSS'.

- Pretty certain this is even, 48:52 at worst for ZSS (lol). Leon made me feel helpless at first but he's just a better player than me, and he also has way more experience in the MU. I got better and better at the MU, then he flew back to France and got bodied by Quik. watdo.
Can sorta see ZSS winning this, but that's only because I idolize Mikeneko so much yet I see him losing to ZSS so I figure maybe I'm not that great at the MU. I hear he's 0-3 to Sakasaka, he's also lost to Kamemushi's ZSS once, and he lost to Salem. Tbh I think Mikeneko's bad at this MU, but he just does well cause he's amazing as a player. Salem and Mr.R are 2-2, but the last set was a slaughter in Salem's favour (Collision VII or VIII). Leon's 5-1 against me and hugely positive against Quik as well. Don't think I've ever seen Choco play Mikeneko but I'd definitely like to. So yeah overall I don't think ZSS wins this at all but it's not out of the question, and it's less out of the question than the ideas of her beating Falco/Diddy imo.

- Feel more strongly about this being even than any other MU I've listed here. Could see either char winning but only by 55:45 at most. I kinda wanna say that I don't think ZSS losing this MU is a possibility but that's probably just cause I'm super confident at this one.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

- Feel more strongly about this being even than any other MU I've listed here. Could see either char winning but only by 55:45 at most. I kinda wanna say that I don't think ZSS can lose this MU but that's probably just cause I'm super confident at this one.

You've beaten Ally before you can say whatever the **** you want about this MU

 

[infiniteV115]

^
Lol

Man, my posts are SWF are longest when I have studying to do, I swear

Anyway, about Marth's MUs compared to ZSS'...

It feels really weird for me to even consider the possibility that ZSS has better MUs than Marth overall, but when I think about it...she does better against ICs and MK.
I guess if anything, I'll accept that she does better against both ICs and MK but will still hold that Marth has better MUs because ZSS doesn't really have any advantageous MUs in top tier. She does barely (if at all) better against ICs, a fair bit better against MK, does a fair bit worse against Oli Pika and Wario, a teensy bit worse against Snake and Falco, roughly the same against Diddy and loses to Marth. So, I'll say that in theory Marth has better MUs, but in practice, where NA only has 1 notable Pikachu, Oli, and arguably no more notable Warios, ZSS will probably do better at larger events.
Also, Marth may have a lot of MUs in mid tier that he has to worry about but so does ZSS. Marth probably loses to DDD which is a big deal, and also goes evenish with DK, Rob, Sonic, and apparently also Wolf and Sheik? ZSS possibly loses to Fox and goes even with or barely beats tons of others - Lucario, Wolf, Peach, Ike, Sonic, Sheik, G&W, hell even Ness and Lucas can hold their own against her.

I'm also a bit of a Marth theorycrafter (ie the vast majority feels Marth is a lot worse than I do) and if it weren't for results, I would say Marth beats Snake Falco Diddy Pikachu Wario ZSS for sure, evenish against DDD and Oli, evenish against ICs and moderate disadvantage to MK.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

moderate disadvantage to MK.

and that's why theorycraft is bull****.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Man I havent done one of these in a long time; well, here's my final Brawl tier list opinion that I'll ever make:

TOP TIER
S:
A:

HIGH TIER
B:
C:

MID TIER
D:
E:

LOW TIER
F:
G:

BOTTOM TIER
H:

*I actually think Link is G Tier but I couldn't not put him in Hyrule Tier.

RIP Brawl

is better then , is better then , and should be ahead of and

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

is better then

No.

 

[Z'zgashi]

is better then

No

is better then

No

should be ahead of and

No

/insightful responses

 

[Zatchiel]

better then

No.

 

[Seagull Joe]

No

No

No

/insightful responses

What results did ever get that indicated he was better than ?

^
Lol
Man, my posts are SWF are longest when I have studying to do, I swear
Anyway, about Marth's MUs compared to ZSS'...
It feels really weird for me to even consider the possibility that ZSS has better MUs than Marth overall, but when I think about it...she does better against ICs and MK.
I guess if anything, I'll accept that she does better against both ICs and MK but will still hold that Marth has better MUs because ZSS doesn't really have any advantageous MUs in top tier. She does barely (if at all) better against ICs, a fair bit better against MK, does a fair bit worse against Oli Pika and Wario, a teensy bit worse against Snake and Falco, roughly the same against Diddy and loses to Marth. So, I'll say that in theory Marth has better MUs, but in practice, where NA only has 1 notable Pikachu, Oli, and arguably no more notable Warios, ZSS will probably do better at larger events.
Also, Marth may have a lot of MUs in mid tier that he has to worry about but so does ZSS. Marth probably loses to DDD which is a big deal, and also goes evenish with DK, Rob, Sonic, and apparently also Wolf and Sheik? ZSS possibly loses to Fox and goes even with or barely beats tons of others - Lucario, Wolf, Peach, Ike, Sonic, Sheik, G&W, hell even Ness and Lucas can hold their own against her.
I'm also a bit of a Marth theorycrafter (ie the vast majority feels Marth is a lot worse than I do) and if it weren't for results, I would say Marth beats Snake Falco Diddy Pikachu Wario ZSS for sure, evenish against DDD and Oli, evenish against ICs and moderate disadvantage to MK.

vs is even for what it's worth.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

What results did ever get that indicated he was better than ?

Well you see, there's this guy who goes by the name of PSP...

 

[Z'zgashi]

What results did ever get that indicated he was better than ?

Toon Link has a sword, your argument is invalid.

 

[pidgezero_one]

"Your"

no

 

[Jabejazz]

Sup guys.

Jiggs is +3 vs ZSS.

That is all.

 

[Thor]

Toon Link has a sword, your argument is invalid.

No.

Or else explain to me the relative positions of Diddy Kong, Falco, and Toon Link. Go.

Sup guys.

Jiggs is +3 vs ZSS.

That is all.

No.

Somewhat tempted to post a rough version of my opinion of the tier list, but I'm sure it will be hated on and shot down, regardless of how much anyone actually agrees with it, so I don't see a point.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

My opinion of the tier list:
You are a smart guy playing these characters tier

**** you I hate you you can go die in a fire if you play these characters tier
again
Why are you playing these ****ty characters do you even want to WIN tier
Everyone else
Lol ok now you're clearly just trolling tier:


Will post more in depth opinion when I don't have a 2000 word essay on Socrates (who was probably afraid of spiders) to write.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Sup guys.

Jiggs is +3 vs ZSS.

That is all.

This is only half true

Rollout is +3 vs V115

 

[Mikkelmann]

cool thanks for the list :D

 

[Illuvial]

So why exactly did Donkey Kong move up 2 spots on this list?

 

[pidgezero_one]

ny guess is going fast but im not known for having good opinions

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

ny guess is going fast but im not known for having good opinions

Well, he did pass Sonic

 

[Tagxy]

Been playing pretty much only melee the last year. In retrospect, meta knight isnt that bad.

 

[Z'zgashi]

So why exactly did Donkey Kong move up 2 spots on this list?

Because he was way too low in the previous list.

 

[JayWon]

hmmmmmmmmmm

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think as far as the viability of characters is concerned we should center 90% of our considerations around how a character does against MK + ICs. The better a character does against both of them, the more we should be inclined to disregard other, realistically meaningless soft-counters. As a an example I'd like to use this personal opinion of mine: Falco and Snake are better characters than Diddy Kong and Olimar. Snake is one of the few characters who can legit beat both characters on every legal stage and Falco is arguably MKs hardest matchup [take that as you will]. Diddy and Olimar both have solid disadvantages on every stage against MK + ICs which I think is worse than Falco getting ***** by one [IC] but doing fine against the other [MK]. I think Falco is a fantastic character with an amazing matchup spread, beating most characters and only really losing to ICs and Pikachu.

Neither Diddy nor Olimar can be the 3rd best character at this point in my book. In addition to their MK+IC issue, they lack advantageous matchups against all the other high tier characters except Pikachu.

S:
A:
B:
C:

All the other characters are to all intents and purposes irrelevant in singles.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

C:

Hah

hahah

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

fox sux lol

 

[Pazx]

Hah

hahah

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

fox sux lol

The more we see ZSS the more we will see Fox, however he gets bodied by a lot of top tier (Pika, MK) so I'd be wary about putting him so high as well.