Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[tekkie]

did someone really propose that peach:mk might be even

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

did someone really propose that peach:mk might be even

People must be getting the Peach:MK MU confused with the Kie:MK MU

 

[Osennecho]

Anti has so much experience on wifi where Peach suddenly becomes a million times better. If it was a long time ago when he said that I'd understand why. That aside... For Peach vs MK.... RIP Peach.

 

[Thor]

I mean someone might be able to convince me Peach MK is a very tricky -2 (like how GT said Lucario Dedede is a tricky -2) but I would struggle to believe Peach: MK could be even. Kie is amazing [maybe he makes it look like an easier -2 (even when he's winning you can see how rough it is)] but I can't see myself finding Peach as even with MK, and a -1 would be a generous stretch from all I've seen.

That said, if Peach is moved to a -2, then she would then have a -2 and +1 on the top two, where only ZSS and MK have better spreads. For the tier list (slightly off-topic), moving up would seem likely to me (in light of Kie's skill and the most important MU improving), although I'd guess she wouldn't rise too much because Snake and Marth are still issues [now I have to look for Kie vs Marth footage].

Also what's with all the warnings on some of the posts on the previous page? Are those signs that people got infracted? If so, shoutous to the mods or whomever for doing their jobs [I've never seen them before so I ask].

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Shaya's doing his job and it's making me sad

And a character shouldn't rise on the tier list just because of one player. Especially when it's based on one performance of one player. It happens all the time, and it really shouldn't.

 

[tekkie]

i think ICs probably do better against MK than Wolf.

 

[Shaya]

I wish there was a moderator only anti-like button that would put a big FROWN under their post that only that person could see. The frown would follow them to the ends of the earth and smashboards until they die. Or until they get 10 likes from moderators only.

I've made a similar statement about Peach before, and its a relatively shared position on Peach by a lot of players who actually fight against technical gdlk Peaches. She can go toe to toe with any character in the game for as long as that opponent has to attack Peach. Things start going drastically wrong for her when defensive options are the only ones which are taken by an enemy because if Peach 'has to hit you' (because you're behind) she'll eventually commit to something that is punishable due to desperation. Even stock, even percent (or better lead for her) Peach MU for most characters is arguably a disadvantage.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I wish there was a moderator only anti-like button that would put a big FROWN under their post that only that person could see. The frown would follow them to the ends of the earth and smashboards until they die. Or until they get 10 likes from moderators only.

Are you trying to tell me something? Cuz my name is blue now. And blue is the colour of the frown emoticon.

WHAT DID YOU DO TO ME SHAYA

If Peach needs to be winning for the MU to be in her favour the MU is not in her favour.

 

[Shaya]

Look, you're on the ledge, and you're against Marth, and you're above 100%.

The MU is literally +4 in Marth's favour. If Marth needs to put you on the ledge and hit you to 100% for the MU to be in his favour the MU is not in his favour. (Doesn't make sense, right?). Certain characters flow exponentially better in different situations that are common enough that skilled players can accentuate those advantages if they're playing their game. "Playing their game" is what I'd like to highlight though.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Look, you're on the ledge, and you're against Marth, and you're above 100%.

The MU is literally +4 in Marth's favour.

No, I'm a MK main.

 

[Shaya]

No, I'm a MK main.

MK mains have it a lot worse in that situation than say, Diddy Kong or Falco.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nah, they just need to be patient

marth will eventually screw up because mk can safely bait things/force options in that position, marth can't

 

[Shaya]

Nah, they just need to be patient

marth will eventually screw up because mk can safely bait things/force options in that position, marth can't

I'm not exactly sure how MK safely baits things/forces options when above 100% while on the ledge when he has to actually get off that ledge eventually due to dat LGL. Marth's the one who just sits at the right range and patiently waits, maybe using down tilt when you time his ledge invincibility running out so he has to go for a regrab.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you dtilt he can let go, jump and air dodge through it
then he can land and get all his ground options (including forward roll which wrecks marth)
or he can just go back to the ledge if he's not confident

or he can jump over you with all of his jumps
fast-fall air dodge cross-ups, glide and tornado all become options
or, again, he can just go back to the ledge

mk is ******** if he's worried about the ledge grab limit in a game that isn't going to time out

he has plenty of options, and he is the one forcing marth to move so he's in control of the situation
if marth could force options out of a ledge-hanging mk, it'd be a different story

I'd just be like
"lol down-b over and over, mix in a few jumps off the ledge to see how marth reacts while staying at a safe distance"
and eventually the marth will get baited into doing something dumb, or I'll realize that they aren't going to commit to anything and I'll just attack through them - how is marth meant to read that?

 

[Thor]

shouldn't rise on the tier list just because of one player

I disagree.

The MU chart we're looking for here details the favorability of a matchup given both players playing at the top levels of their characters and knowing the MU inside and out using all meta-game level techniques. So saying "MK don't know the MU, it's -1" is useful in a chart of practical MUs [how MUs shake down when you or I play them], but for the theory MU chart (if you do your HW like M2K, here's how stuff breaks down), it's irrelevant.

I'll just requote myself and extrapolate a little. If Kie is the best Peach player by a wide margin, and when Kie plays the MU against the best MK out there (not sure it's Otori, but whomever it is) and the MU breaks down to be -2, it should be listed as -2. We find the the MU chart values over a wide variety of data sets because we can't know for certain that each player was on top of their game, but if Kie wins and continues to do so, then we shouldn't conclude that Peach shouldn't have a better MU in the chart. We COULD however, conclude that other Peach mains really need to step it up or that they are not good at the Peach:MK MU.

I just realized the second half of what I wrote is fully irrelevant to a just MU chart thread, but I feel like leaving it in so I just used the spoiler function for those who are interested.

Spoiler

If you disagree with the thesis of how a tier list should be constructed (my quote) then we obviously disagree on your quote for all the right reasons, because the definition of the tier list itself is in question. But if you agree, and the Peach:MK MU on the chart is better for Peach, it would seem likely that she would move up a spot or two because of how important that matchup is for tournament viability. If it moved to -2, then the logical spot would be farther up - she does fine against Olimar, Diddy, and beats ICs, and her Falco MU is a -1, which isn't horrible. It's really Snake and MK that hold her back (and Marth), and if the MK MU is actually better for her than we thought, her viability goes up and so her spot on the tier list [in my opinion] should rise accordingly. Heck, Lucario is +1 better vs MK, and Marth, worse vs Olimar, Diddy Kong, and ICs, and he's like 8 spots higher. This is obviously not a fully developed and a potentially invalid argument, but it suggests Peach would move up, given that the MK MU is so vital to tournament viability.

Especially when it's based on one performance of one player

This I agree with. It's why (as I mentioned above) data is usually taken over a wide range of matches.

 

[Shaya]

@Orion*

If you dtilt he can let go, jump and air dodge through it
then he can land and get all his ground options (including forward roll which wrecks marth)
or he can just go back to the ledge if he's not confident

Meta Knight can let go of the ledge, jump, air dodge, land on stage and forward roll in 20 frames in a non-obvious manner in this scenario? ****, top level MK's need to step it the **** up.
Also him regrabbing the ledge is fantastic.

or he can jump over you with all of his jumps
fast-fall air dodge cross-ups, glide and tornado all become options
or, again, he can just go back to the ledge

This is talking about from the ledge, not from general recovery situations where him going high is actually his best option, but he won't always be able to do so. Tornado from the ledge is not a good option against Marth.
If Marth is going to let MK use 3+ jumps to get over him from the ledge.... oh I don't even need to finish this sentence.
The thing you can mention is MK choosing to glide under the stage. Good thing we have a rule for that usually/it's out of meta.

mk is ******** if he's worried about the ledge grab limit in a game that isn't going to time out

Heh.

he has plenty of options, and he is the one forcing marth to move so he's in control of the situation
if marth could force options out of a ledge-hanging mk, it'd be a different story

How does MK force Marth to move while sitting on the ledge while Marth's at grounded sword range where MK has not one thing that out ranges or outdisjoints him? How isn't it MK being forced to make movements because Marth can hit a ledge grabbing MK without invincibility without fearing ledge drop uair? You have no idea what you're talking about.

I'd just be like
"lol down-b over and over, mix in a few jumps off the ledge to see how marth reacts while staying at a safe distance"
and eventually the marth will get baited into doing something dumb, or I'll realize that they aren't going to commit to anything and I'll just attack through them - how is marth meant to read that?

Safe distance for MK in this situation is literally ledge height with invincibility and without it only below the ledge. Let me emphasise that I'm talking about MK at 100% or above where his every option that doesn't involve ledge dropping is literally too slow without enough invincibility to be safe. How does he read it I wonder? Maybe because MK's only options remotely mix up in this scenario are ledge drop related.

Marth committing is throwing out smash attacks randomly (which is reserved for MK getting so frustrated he goes with a regular get up option -> i.e. something significantly easier to punish and time than say, Falco's Side B), or jumping/not being able to FF when MK is able to ledge drop (as MK can't ledge drop for close to 30 frames after grabbing the ledge).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

money match me cause you're wrong

 

[Shaya]

Mate, what part of being 100% on the ledge against Marth who has legitimate ledge frame traps on you and to top it off two OoS kill options in the scenario don't you get? The scenario is plain and simple not a very fair deal for Meta Knight. And thank ****ing Helix Fossil for that.

And after quickly watching 500 hours of matches between MikeNeko and Otori I've come to this drastic conclusion that trumps us both-
Otori literally does everything in his power to circumvent grabbing the ledge at ANY PERCENT if Marth is firmly on stage in neutral
Otori grabs the ledge so little when he's at 100% or above that the "100% kill rate" statistic of the scenario is a little obnoxious and requires a bit more of Otori not dying to dolphin slash/fsmash when he tornados and just grab the ledge and die in another way.

Exaggerations sure, but this has actually opened my eyes a little because of how overtly obvious his fear of grabbing the ledge against Mikeneko is.

 

[BlueXenon]

Here are some friendlies of Mikeneko vs Otori. It's not very serious iirc, but it's the most recent video.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

otori is a scrubby *****

I'll **** you up shaya

 

[BlueXenon]

Otori won Apex 2012 though.

 

[Cassio]

Slayers vs Tyrant. They play pretty frequently, and their sets usually got to last game.

If you dtilt he can let go, jump and air dodge through it
then he can land and get all his ground options (including forward roll which wrecks marth)
or he can just go back to the ledge if he's not confident

or he can jump over you with all of his jumps
fast-fall air dodge cross-ups, glide and tornado all become options
or, again, he can just go back to the ledge

mk is ******** if he's worried about the ledge grab limit in a game that isn't going to time out

he has plenty of options, and he is the one forcing marth to move so he's in control of the situation
if marth could force options out of a ledge-hanging mk, it'd be a different story

I'd just be like
"lol down-b over and over, mix in a few jumps off the ledge to see how marth reacts while staying at a safe distance"
and eventually the marth will get baited into doing something dumb, or I'll realize that they aren't going to commit to anything and I'll just attack through them - how is marth meant to read that?

I'm not trying to be offensive but those are poor conclusions to make from either character's moveset, shaya was pretty nice to give such an elaborate response. Among other things, wasting jumps as MK near or above your opponent is a terrible situation to be in, and jump airdodge with is an incredibly yolo-low-probability-of-success decision against marth even with good aerial mobility but even moreso with MKs terrible one.

I dont really like these kinds of posts because while MK is a powerful character, people without an accurate depiction of his tools exaggerate his abilities "bc MK".

 

[Man Li Gi]

But DK tho... bar KD3, MK, and maybe ZSS does fine against top tiers (in my humble opinion).

 

[Shaya]

DK against ICs, Falco, MK, D3, Olimar and Wario are not fun match ups.

 

[infiniteV115]

Wario is only a bad MU for DK if the Wario can do the chaingrab (only Warios I've seen do the dthrow CGs are Croi and Sky). If not then the MU is like evenish cause DK has hilarious air releases on Wario

But yeah definitely a pretty bad MU. And ZSS is also a pretty terrible MU for DK if the ZSS knows what to do; I guess in that sense it's a bit like the Flaoc MU but imo ZSS is worse for DK. Diddy also beats him solidly. Pikachu too but not as hard as Diddy.

DK definitely does pretty badly against the top tiers overall. Sure, Marth is even (ish, I personally think Marth wins like 55:45 overall but I'm not gonna get into that) and Snake is evenish (I think Snake wins that 55:45-60:40 but again not gonna get into it) so those MUs are definitely doable for DK, and I guess Pikachu is realistically doable as well...Olimar ZSS Falco Wario are all theoretically very solid against DK but in reality it's likely that most players of these chars don't know how the play the MU optimally, so I guess in reality these are somewhat doable or something. MK DDD and ICs.....that's another story lol

 

[Man Li Gi]

DK against ICs, Falco, MK, D3, Olimar and Wario are not fun match ups.

Wario is hella (is this word banned?) free against DK. GR combos all day. Make sure to weave in and out of Wario's grab range as they always start fishing early on in the fight. U-tilt serves as a great anti-air as well.
Falco can get easily gimped.
Oli is tough, but not insurmountable. Make to keep Oli on platforms and in the air.
Forgot about IC's for some reason.... anyway, already mentioned MK, D3 giving trouble to DK. IC's are in the same category.

 

[-LzR-]

Warios really need to learn the chaingrab. It's very easy when you learn it. Took me 30 mins to learn. It really changes some MUs greatly in Warios favor for that little effort. I'd really like to have that.

 

[infiniteV115]

Wario is hella (is this word banned?) free against DK. GR combos all day. Make sure to weave in and out of Wario's grab range as they always start fishing early on in the fight. U-tilt serves as a great anti-air as well.

Nope. If you think DK is gonna have an easier time grabbing Wario than vice versa, then I feel bad for you son. You don't know what you're talking about.

Falco can get easily gimped.

Still don't know what you're talking about. Even MKs have trouble gimping good Falcos, and get gimps occasionally at best. DK's gonna have a tough time gimping Falco, though admittedly he can punish onstage recoveries semi-consistently and get him offstage repeatedly...but it's still a rough MU for DK

Oli is tough, but not insurmountable. Make to keep Oli on platforms and in the air.

Yeah it's not like Oli has a whistle or anything, you definitely know what you're talking about here.

Forgot about IC's for some reason.... anyway, already mentioned MK, D3 giving trouble to DK. IC's are in the same category.

Okay you actually know what you're talking about here XD

 

[Man Li Gi]

Nope. If you think DK is gonna have an easier time grabbing Wario than vice versa, then I feel bad for you son. You don't know what you're talking about. Ugh, bro I already know Wario's grab range> or= to DK's grab. Never said it was easy (since when was fighting a top tier ever easy). When I said he was free, I was meaning more free than the rest of Shaya's CPs. To ignore the numerous followups is quite ignorant.

Still don't know what you're talking about. Even MKs have trouble gimping good Falcos, and get gimps occasionally at best. DK's gonna have a tough time gimping Falco, though admittedly he can punish onstage recoveries semi-consistently and get him offstage repeatedly...but it's still a rough MU for DK. I seen numerous good Falco's get gimped, tossed around, and what not. I even seen Wolfs gimp Falco. Learn your Falco's recovery pattern. The main problems tho for DK: he has no OoS that is truly effective against Falco, CG, and lasers, but don't let that get twisted since DK has some tools fight the bird.
Yeah it's not like Oli has a whistle or anything, you definitely know what you're talking about here. Yet platforms, like the ones on BF seem to be the bane of Oli's existence. In fact, keep them on a platform or go semi aggro in the air, and they have problems. Heck, Weegee, Jiggs, and Ness (all three significantly worse overall than DK) can beat Oli because of their air tyrancy. DK is not an air monarch, but has a decent bair, uair, and an ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nair.

Okay you actually know what you're talking about here XD. NO dip I know what I am talking about.

I do not take lightly to condescending attitudes, but whatever. DK deserves to be mid high at least. The sheer durability makes Falcos squirm.

Wario is only a bad MU for DK if the Wario can do the chaingrab (only Warios I've seen do the dthrow CGs are Croi and Sky). If not then the MU is like evenish cause DK has hilarious air releases on Wario

C'mon, you even admitted it. Anyway, I do have a training buddy who uses Wario and Snake. Used to the TC and to the CG. Even adapted to those things. Never said any top tier match was easy, which for some reason was assumed, but said that DK is not completely awful against top tiers bar KD3, ICs, and MK.

 

[infiniteV115]

When I said he was free, I was meaning more free than the rest of Shaya's CPs.

Maybe you should be more clear about things like this then, cause normally when somebody says a MU is 'hella free' for X character, then X...you know...doesn't lose the MU

To ignore the numerous followups is quite ignorant.

I'm assuming you're talking about the GR followups? If so I don't know what makes you think I'm ignoring them; I mentioned the air release punishes before you did XD
If not then elaborate pls

DK deserves to be mid high at least.

Not disagreeing with this per se but I mean mid high is not even a tier that exists on the current version of the tier list, so...who do you think he should surpass, and why?

The sheer durability makes Falcos squirm.

Yes DK lives long and Falco usually has trouble landing his kill moves, but if the Falco plays the MU right then he can just abuse his vastly superior ground game to safely build damage (like he does in almost every MU) and maintain stage control, and just let the kill come to him (maybe just a fresh bair at around 170 or something). The kill may come at like 160+ but Falco has no trouble getting DK to that percent. Tbh most players are really bad at recognizing kill percents and keeping their kill moves fresh, it's not hard. That's why we see things like Falco players usmashing Snakes at 130 or DDDs at 150 and then getting frustrated that it didn't kill, and then usmashing over and over hoping to kill (while it's just getting staler and staler...) and the opponent lives to like 200%
Like I said before in reality it's a borderline doable MU for DK because a lot of people don't know the DK MU very well (and a lot of Falco players make Falco seem worse at killing than he actually is because of what I just mentioned above) but theoretically DK should be getting stomped. The best I've seen this MU played was at Crossfire 2 where Bloodcross used Falco against Will and rather than trying to camp he just went ham in the paint with Falco's superior CQC. And Will got bodied.

 

[Shaya]

DK vs Wario is relatively horrendous.

Auto cancelled or FF nair on DK is a near guaranteed grab up to 40%+. The chain grab goes to 200%. I come from a region with a Wario who knows how to chain grab. It's not a very pretty match up.

 

[Man Li Gi]

DK vs Wario is relatively horrendous.

Auto cancelled or FF nair on DK is a near guaranteed grab up to 40%+. The chain grab goes to 200%. I come from a region with a Wario who knows how to chain grab. It's not a very pretty match up.

Considering that I play up against a guy who knows the CG as well, this does scare me, but not like the KD3 CG. The grab does not go to 200% really. Goes to like 110%, goes into a some sort of lull state then picks up at 150% for some reason (tested this CG numerous times in battles and was done on me too). If the Wario is hanging in the air with nair, utilt should suffice while if they are approaching with Nair, then ftilt angled up should do fine as those are what I use to make Warios second guess approaches.

Maybe you should be more clear about things like this then, cause normally when somebody says a MU is 'hella free' for X character, then X...you know...doesn't lose the MU
I'm assuming you're talking about the GR followups? If so I don't know what makes you think I'm ignoring them; I mentioned the air release punishes before you did XD
If not then elaborate pls
Yes DK does have other followups for Wario's moves (Not really guaranteed like GR, but still is something). If, for some reason. your foe approaches with fair Jab>Dtilt (if trip occurs)>Hand slap>(this one requires a real reach) Grab or Ftilt. The last part really doesn't have a high completion rate, but I have been able to land it a couple times.

Not disagreeing with this per se but I mean mid high is not even a tier that exists on the current version of the tier list, so...who do you think he should surpass, and why? I was comparing it to other TFGs and right now DK sits in the middle but the mid-high (border tier) is where I think DK should reside. Then again, it is just my opinion.

Yes DK lives long and Falco usually has trouble landing his kill moves, but if the Falco plays the MU right then he can just abuse his vastly superior ground game to safely build damage (like he does in almost every MU) and maintain stage control, and just let the kill come to him (maybe just a fresh bair at around 170 or something). The kill may come at like 160+ but Falco has no trouble getting DK to that percent. Tbh most players are really bad at recognizing kill percents and keeping their kill moves fresh, it's not hard. That's why we see things like Falco players usmashing Snakes at 130 or DDDs at 150 and then getting frustrated that it didn't kill, and then usmashing over and over hoping to kill (while it's just getting staler and staler...) and the opponent lives to like 200%
Like I said before in reality it's a borderline doable MU for DK because a lot of people don't know the DK MU very well (and a lot of Falco players make Falco seem worse at killing than he actually is because of what I just mentioned above) but theoretically DK should be getting stomped. The best I've seen this MU played was at Crossfire 2 where Bloodcross used Falco against Will and rather than trying to camp he just went ham in the paint hard in the paint with Falco's superior CQC. And Will got bodied. Kismet v Will, DEHF v Will. The reason I put those up is because Falcos went aggro against DK, and DK has enough tools to bait and beat the Flaco in question. If they become the Lasers 4 Life Falcos, then DK can't beat Falco, but for some reason the Falcos I face all want to rush DK.

 

[Shaya]

What I'm saying is, Wario just has to hit you with nair. Or Bite. Or Dair IIRC. Or the good ol fashioned shield grab.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Dat Bite tho. Anyway, yeah the Bite is the best thing Wario has on DK (over 100 DK has no way to get back on stage if Wario is patiently waiting with his mouth agape. DK has to eat the punish).
Dair technically should not clash with Utilt, but it does do a fair trade.
Most Warios nair in hopes you shield so a they can net a grab. Best to eat the nair (only on low though). An angled up ftilt could help you out there.
SGs are the most threatening thing out there (agreed). Don't know if DK even has a proper response to that (it is why the ICs destroy DK).

 

[1PokeMastr]

Dat Bite tho. Anyway, yeah the Bite is the best thing Wario has on DK (over 100 DK has no way to get back on stage if Wario is patiently waiting with his mouth agape. DK has to eat the punish).
Dair technically should not clash with Utilt, but it does do a fair trade.
Most Warios nair in hopes you shield so a they can net a grab. Best to eat the nair (only on low though). An angled up ftilt could help you out there.
SGs are the most threatening thing out there (agreed). Don't know if DK even has a proper response to that (it is why the ICs destroy DK).

You're wrong and I'm lazy.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Guess I am. Whatever. My passive aggressive style fits me, so sometimes I become a punching bag on purpose.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Man Li Gi used Bide!
Wario used Bite!
Man Li Gi is storing energy!
Wario used Chain Grab to 200%!
Man Li Gi Unleashed Energy!
Man Li Gi's attack missed!
Wario used Clap!
Man Li Gi fainted!

 

[Man Li Gi]

Like I said, the CG doesn't straight up go to 200%. It is more like it goes to 110% then stops for some reason, then picks up at at like 150-160ish. Me being quite keen to detail must point out that Bide actually never misses, so technically my retaliation is unblockable/accurate...but whatever.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Me being quite keen to detail must point out that Bide actually never misses, so technically my retaliation is unblockable/accurate...but whatever.

Neither does Aura Sphere, but this isn't Pokemon.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Neither does Aura Sphere, but this isn't Pokemon.