Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Ghostbone]

Falco's recovery is actually quite good, phantasm is pretty amazing, and when you can go to a platform, go on stage, go to the ledge, wait and double jump then have all those options again, have 4 different lengths to choose from(like phantasm high making it look like you're going to the platform but cancel it to go to the ledge), fire bird, etc. Most characters can't cover all those options, the few that can are like, MK...and Sheik?

You can't really say phantasm is his "only option" therefore it's easy to punish, he has many ways he can use it, lol.

 

[Nemy]

Preparing to punish phantasm doesnt guarantee a free fire bird... Not for the most part. Most characters can cover both with good positioning.

 

[-LzR-]

With decent DI Falco can just recover with his double jump alone. It gives him insane height insanely fast, combined with a great bair. Still, most Falcos just immediately want to sideB to that ledge because why save your jump when you can momentum cancel jump at 40% and die.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Okay, watching Esam at Apex I can't believe the even with MK anymore, I've always been doubtful but that sealed it for me. Is the Mk/Pika even thing still widely held? Am I just missing something?

 

[Delta-cod]

It's still widely held among the Pikachu mains, to my knowledge. Although there's been no discussion since Apex just happened, lol.

 

[Djent]

Though I strongly doubt the ratio should be even, realistically ESAM's one new loss shouldn't matter much in assessing that claim. Two games shouldn't shift our confidence much because 1) it's only two games, and 2) Pika already has a poor tournament record against MK. When you put those two games in the context of the MU history as it has played out over the past year or two, you get the same story as always - Pika wins sometimes, but MK wins more often. And when our confidence is already skewed against a claim, new negative evidence exerts less of a pull than if the prior evidence showed the opposite conclusion.

Of course, people are notoriously careless with the examples they use to support their positions. So you'll probably see some revived protesting against the ratio, even though the evidence is only marginally stronger than it was before. I'd ask those people why those two games should matter so much more than other recent ones. Hell, despite my best efforts, the lists I made could still be missing relevant sets that I just didn't remember or hear about, or because I could be biased too. This all goes to show how much work it takes to assess MU ratios empirically - work I highly doubt theoretical trend-hoppers will bother doing.

 

[Z'zgashi]

The only people who will tell you MK v Pika is even are the Pika mains.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

The only people who will tell you MK v Pika is even are the Pika mains.

And the top level MK mains that are just agreeing with anything that makes their character less banworthy

 

[Nicholas1024]

The only people who will tell you MK v Pika is even are the Pika mains.

As a Pikachu main, I've never believed that matchup was even. I'm pretty sure even Esam doesn't believe it any more, considering he went mostly IC's against MK at Apex.

 

[Thor]

Phantasm isn't that easy to punish. It's just that 99% of Falcos always do it on the exact same situations and generally being stupidly predictable with it.

That's why I short hop-phantasm in Melee XD. And then fsmash them out of their rolls.

With respect to onstage phantasm, nado beats phantasm yes (onstage, except in certain very odd circumstances where it trades), but if you overcommit the nado Falco can just laser you or shield/punish. And in recovering, Falco is probably average - Fire Bird (it's not Fire Falco...) is pretty lame yes but if someone is already trying to punish the phantasm you're fine (or if it's MK he's either nadoing or out of position or using fair/bair, none of which are horribly threatening) so Fire Bird is ever so slightly better because of phantasm. Phantasm is somewhat predictable so in my opinion Falco's best spot to recover is above the ledge where you can half phantasm and ledge grab or full phantasm and hit your opponent - alternatively wait a moment if your opponent readies an attack and just phantasm the ledge. Nado at the right height beats all of that, but then Falco is pretty close to the ledge and is probably not too bad off, except that he took percent. MK is also not in a great position then because he had to jump offstage and has to land the nado back onstage so he's not getting much out of it besides the couple extra percent.

MK vs Pika is like (from what I've seen) -1/3, but we don't have that option so we round and it's 0 (it's like 54:46 or so in the old chart). Yes some Pika mains (like ESAM) think it's flat out zero (or used), because as Nicholas1024 pointed out, maybe even that changed...

Also if someone wants solid evidence against MK/Pika 0 (like, it's -1), find the SKTAR 2 match of Tyrant vs ESAM. ESAM gets zoned out so well... I'm too lazy to post it but it's not hard to find.

EDIT: armor armour armir armor armor armor.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

EDIT: armor armour armir armor armor armor.

Anyway, Toon Link is +4 against Marth imo

 

[pidgezero_one]

the TL marth matchup is just ignorant in my opinion

 

[PKBeam]

Anyway, Toon Link is +4 against Marth imo

what the fk was that sh*t?
marths going where they shouldn't be, STAY ONSTAGE

 

[Ghostbone]

As a Pikachu main, I've never believed that matchup was even. I'm pretty sure even Esam doesn't believe it any more, considering he went mostly IC's against MK at Apex.

He's gone mostly ICs vs MK for ages.
And at the same time as not going Pikachu vs MKs was arguing for Pikachu vs MK to be even.

 

[infiniteV115]

Anyway, Toon Link is +4 against Marth imo

Hehehehehehehe, the description

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Hehehehehehehe, the description

You can end the series by not getting 3 stocked by his secondaries anymore

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

MK v Pika shouldn't be listed as even imo.

 

[PKBeam]

a lot of MUs are screwed up but I find this odd for a MU in the highest tiers. if it was like Zelda vs Ganon then that's to be expected but... MK vs Pika?

I bet 75% of the MKs are seething with anger over the fact that someone actually goes even with them atm.

 

[Z'zgashi]

No, its the other way around, all the MK mains want us to think MK actually doesnt **** every character and try to get stupid **** like +1 against Yoshi.

 

[PKBeam]

+1 is sort of ridiculous
but doesn't Yoshi's PG **** like... all of MK's approaches?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Pretty sure Olimar and ICs would've been listed as even if it weren't for the stagelist.

 

[Z'zgashi]

+1 is sort of ridiculous
but doesn't Yoshi's PG **** like... all of MK's approaches?

If the MK doesnt understand the concept of spacing, yes. Otherwise, not in the slightest. Dair, fair, nado, sl, hell, even ftilt ***** our pivot grab if done even semi correctly.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's not that bad for Yoshi, you're assuming he knows the match-up thoroughly
no one assumes that about their character, or all of the ratios would be 1 point better for mk than they already are lol

 

[Z'zgashi]

They dont need to know the MU at all, they can look at Yoshi's grab and say 'oh, I can just jump above him and dair and he can never grab me, and since he doesnt have a shield, he cant punish me on block either'. Then the MK spaces dairs all game and the Yoshi cries in a corner.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Or the Yoshi is not ******** and punishes a whiffed dair with a SH aerial, egg, etc...

There are nuances, mk counters them all once he knows them all

but that's the same for lots of characters lol

 

[PKBeam]

I believe he was talking about Dair on shield.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yoshi has a shield?

 

[Z'zgashi]

^ This. MK spacing fairs is like, impossible to punish if the MK does it right, and as soon as he pushes Yoshi to the ledge and gets in, whats Yoshi going to do about dair? Best he can do is hope to get an egg lay, usmash, or nair read since MK's diagonal reach is far too much for Yoshi's uair, fair and bair are bad, and pivot grab is way too low to the ground to punish well spaced air moves. That MU is ****ing awful, it SHOULD be -3, dont know why it isnt, and I know every Yoshi agrees its at best a hard -2.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You're just hard on your character cause everyone thinks it's -1, you don't have it any worse than sheik, rob, G&W, lucario, etc...

If he corners you, you can SHAD through him/assosciated mix-ups
You didn't say why egg is a bad punish

 

[PKBeam]

Yoshi has a shield?

You know when you press that button that makes him go into his egg that's not his Side-B? That's actually his shield. People used to think it was a taunt for characters with crappy shield pressure.

Even worse, you can poke it when he's on a platform.

 

[Z'zgashi]

You're just hard on your character cause everyone thinks it's -1, you don't have it any worse than sheik, rob, G&W, lucario, etc...

If he corners you, you can SHAD through him/assosciated mix-ups
You didn't say why egg is a bad punish

What are you talking about, everyone bar some MK mains think its -2 or worse. And youre right, we dont have it any worse than those guys, we have it just as bad. And a good prediction with a shad can get us out of a bad position, yes, but MK can also read that himself and punish. Plus, even if we do get out of a bad position, what are we going to do with it, its not like we got damage or an advantageous position out of it, we just went back to neutral which is bad for us. Yoshi has no solid way to get damage or pressure on MK at all, none of Yoshi's tilts are safe against MK on block and our grab/egg lay/jab are all outranged by textbook MK spacing. At neutral, the only thing Yoshi can do is basically just stand there and hope to react to whatever MK does, and even if we react correctly or catch the MK doing something, we dont get much unless we get a grab, which even then all we do is get maybe 15% and put MK either offstage or above us, which MK can easily recover from right back to neutral with basically no risk. If MK catches us, he gets damage plus positional advantage which he can carry into TONS more. Its just really bad. Add in our shield and the fact that almost EVERYTHING MK does on our shield is safe.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

get better scrub stop johnning about your character jeez

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You're just hard on your character cause everyone thinks it's -1, you don't have it any worse than sheik, rob, G&W, lucario, etc...

If he corners you, you can SHAD through him/assosciated mix-ups
You didn't say why egg is a bad punish

Umm woah.

I do think Yoshi does better than most against MK but a -1 is very generious for him in that MU.

Also ROB does worse than everyone on that list against MK.

 

[tekkie]

it's 2014, "what if they don't know the character gimmicks" isn't strong support for a better matchup

 

[Espy Rose]

It's 2014 and people still suck against non-MK match ups in Brawl.
That being said, such an argument should never be used in a match up discussion. Not in 2008, and especially not now.

Also Grim, just stop. Yoshi gets destroyed by MK. As does most non-top characters.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's almost like I said exactly that a few posts ago
Reading comprehension through the roof

Either we move nearly every character down a point against mk by taking into account match-up knowledge, orwe leave them as -2s

Yoshi doesn't get special treatment just because his players are more emo and more vocal about it than sheik mains/lucario mains/dedede mains/etc...

ROB mains have sucked for a long time, gives the impression that it's a worse mu vs. MK than it is, but really it's the same as the other characters I mentioned

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's not that bad for Yoshi, you're assuming he knows the match-up thoroughly
no one assumes that about their character, or all of the ratios would be 1 point better for mk than they already are lol

It's like you guys go out of your way to be ******** real

 

[Espy Rose]

I wish you'd just do what you're told.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You cover your blatant errors with condescension seamlessly, keep it up.

 

[Espy Rose]

It ain't an error. I just want you to quit posting like you have any idea about anything regarding Smash match ups.