Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Man Li Gi]

Neither does Aura Sphere, but this isn't Pokemon.

Yes, this is Smash where taking hits are not make or break and I use DK's MC and DI well enough where only a fresh uair from Wario will kill and the clap is almost never fresh for me.

 

[False]

If you dtilt he can let go, jump and air dodge through it
then he can land and get all his ground options (including forward roll which wrecks marth)
or he can just go back to the ledge if he's not confident

or he can jump over you with all of his jumps
fast-fall air dodge cross-ups, glide and tornado all become options
or, again, he can just go back to the ledge

mk is ******** if he's worried about the ledge grab limit in a game that isn't going to time out

he has plenty of options, and he is the one forcing marth to move so he's in control of the situation
if marth could force options out of a ledge-hanging mk, it'd be a different story

I'd just be like
"lol down-b over and over, mix in a few jumps off the ledge to see how marth reacts while staying at a safe distance"
and eventually the marth will get baited into doing something dumb, or I'll realize that they aren't going to commit to anything and I'll just attack through them - how is marth meant to read that?

I don't think you've been properly edge guarded by a Marth before. It's not complete destruction as Shaya may be implying, but Marth HEAVILY edge guards MK. That's what makes the match up do-able for Marth. Anything MK does Marth can react to it.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I think you have it in reverse.

Marth can edge guard Mk well.
Mk just Mks at the ledge.

 

[BlueXenon]

I don't think the Ice Climbers have a +3 advantage vs DDD now that Vex has beat both Nakat and Vinnie's Ice Climbers.

 

[Djent]

TBH Vex just might be amazing, although +2 could be right as well.

Ask 9B?

 

[False]

Yeah I wouldn't go as far to say it's +3.

 

[BlueXenon]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in this DDD vs IC's mu, can DDD make sure his landings don't get grabbed by using his neutral special? I know he'll be punished after, but if he has no other options and can avoid a grab, it is worth it.

 

[Thor]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in this DDD vs IC's mu, can DDD make sure his landings don't get grabbed by using his neutral special? I know he'll be punished after, but if he has no other options and can avoid a grab, it is worth it.

It depends - Inhale Nana and you're probably grabbed. Inhale Popo and if they have desynced properly, you're possibly grabbed by Nana. But given that the other Climber has to reposition after a successful Inhale (that is, a Climber is inside Dedede's belly/body/mouth) [I don't think they don't just pop right into position], and near the edge the dthrow chain won't last long (that is, stalling to wait for the Climber to get in place), it might work if you mash fast (low percents you force them to chaingrab you too fast or break out, high percents you just mash out or get thrown once and so are free) but I don't think this works center stage that often.

I also didn't check the frame data - if you can spit the Climber (Popo/Nana) out fast enough, what I've just said above could be fairly difficult (i.e, if you can spit in 12 frames after the Climber is sucked in, they have 6 frames to run in range with the other climber and hit the grab button - not exactly easy, although still possible - if faster it's worse for the ICs, slower is better for them of course).

And of course, this all depends on distance - max distance successful inhale will be much harder to punish compared to an inhale in IC's normal grab range.

Also, a well-timed ICs roll is a grab for them if they read the Inhale landing, unless it's the very edge of the stage Dedede lands on (or you b-reverse it).

Vex seems to think it's a good strategy though, based on the video I saw (and while he ate some damage more than I'd expect, he was very rarely grabbed for it and it worked very well a couple of times).

So if someone wants to frame-data my face and explain why this strategy fails, go ahead, otherwise it would seem very useful on the edge, and a good mix-up near edges and the stage center (you have to guess they won't roll behind you or else b-reverse it to catch the roll).

EDIT: I can't actually find the Vex vs Nakat footage, but he used it plenty vs Vinnie.

 

[1PokeMastr]

You can't grab DDD when he has swallowed someone, I don't think.

And if Vex does it vs Nakat and it works. it must work for now.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

If I inhale either climber, I gain a good chuck of invincibility right before being able to spit out the other climber, so I can't get hit out of it after inhaling right away, and I can't get grabbed while I have another character swallowed, only hit, so it's actually pretty hard for Ice Climbers to punish a good inhale read correctly, and the reward DDD gets from landing an inhale to spitting the other climber at you can be HUGE. I believe the matchup to be closer to -1 then -2 but I don't think it's either, it's inbetween, it's an awkward matchup because DDD has to fight Ice Climbers.

This is in my private DDD notepad of things I've tested because people never did the research, but look at how absurd Inhale is;

Inhale data

earliest grab from inhale on from 17
Earliest invincibility from earliest grab is frame 21
Dedede gains 25 frames of invincibility 4 frames after landing inhale
Releasing star from inhale first hitbox comes out on frame 6 and lasts until frame 35 meaning the star hitbox stays out for 29 frames

 

[Grim Tuesday]

how do you test frames? I've always wanted the ability but I didn't know which direction to go in

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Frame advance code. Hitting pause freezes the game and hitting Z advances the game 1 frame at a time.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Vex is just too good.

At Neutral ICs desync and punish you for whatever you do.
When DDD jumps ICs just wait on the ground (don't desync). Then in becomes a RPS.
They can't Shieldgrab a Bair, but they can spot dodge it and grab afterwards.
Inhale will beat their Spotdodge, but if they just shield you're pretty much stuck. They can throw you an Iceblock, let you inhale Nana and Punish with an Smash, or just read it and Roll bedind you into stuff.
Blizzard walls will beat pretty much everything and force DDD to the ledge, limiting his options even more.

I don't see much hope for the King in this Matchup.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Ftilt trades with blizzard wall. DDD can hold his ground.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

how do you test frames? I've always wanted the ability but I didn't know which direction to go in

debug pause frame advance

Those are some of the keywords associated with the code. There multiple variants running around I noticed. One version that I got from GIMR had an issue where the z button to advance wouldn't work anymore on occasion. It would just grab. The solution from him was to go into training mode at 2/3 speed and press z several times. Another version by magnus (I think) allowed functionality for all controllers to have the frame advance option instead of simply player one slot.

Anyway, once you get the code you need to look up how to make a RSBE01.gct file. Once you have that you place it in a folder "code". Where the code folder is located at the root of the SD card. There you can begin to test stuff like a pro. But, then there are still some nuances to with the mechanics to get straight though.

Overall, frame data is some of the most time consuming aspects of smash, but the reward is practically nothing at all in terms of improving your game play. Generally, stuff that might affect match-ups such as say bthrow -> ike dash attack is thought of first from playing, then verified via frame advance and such. In all the time I have done this stuff, I think the only two major components that frame advancing provided for me was the knowledge of how early Falco's Usmash KO's people, and in melee the fact that marth physically cannot do a standing regrab on fox (no DI) from 16%-19%. And this explained why I always dropped grabs on regrab in place.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Magus's one is weird, sometimes it works other times it doesn't.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

When you use one of the least explored characters in the game, testing frame data can help a lot

 

[KuroganeHammer]

do you know why Jigglypuff is the least explored character?

theres nothing TO explore

 

[dean.]

grim why didn't you go jiggs vs me, i was v sad.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

do you know why Jigglypuff is the least explored character?

theres nothing TO explore

do you know why jigglypuff is bottom 3 despite obviously not being that terrible at all?

cause people think that what you just said is true

grim why didn't you go jiggs vs me, i was v sad.

idk, was sandbagging I guess
maybe next time

 

[KuroganeHammer]

grim what examples do you have that jiggz is secretly not bottom tier

 

[Grim Tuesday]

common sense
testimony from literally anyone who has played against me in the last year or so
an understanding of why she is currently considered bottom tier (people play her with a dumb mindset, mostly)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

this argument will go nowhere fast, Grimmy

 

[Grim Tuesday]

then why'd you start it?

Honestly believing that Jigglypuff is bottom tier in 2014 is as backwards as not supporting equal rights for homosexuals
there's just no excuse for it anymore

 

[Man Li Gi]

Man, Grim Jiggs sucks. Jiggs loses to Ness, Luigi, and Yoshi (notice I put only aerial characters). I have yet been proven wrong by that statement. If your character cannot beat the aforementioned 3, how do you think Jiggs can beat the likes of Snake, and DDD? You have been preaching about how good Jiggs is since I became a member and what boggles my mind are there any results or fruits of your labor? I have a feeling that all you really want is to give Jiggs some respect or a chance in the competitive scene. I mean I could proclaim Ganon is not as bad as people make him out to be as he has a decent combo game and extreme damage racking moves, while also having a plethora of kill moves, so people are just underestimating how good Ganon is.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Man, Grim Jiggs sucks. Jiggs loses to Ness, Luigi, and Yoshi (notice I put only aerial characters). I have yet been proven wrong by that statement. If your character cannot beat the aforementioned 3, how do you think Jiggs can beat the likes of Snake, and DDD? You have been preaching about how good Jiggs is since I became a member and what boggles my mind are there any results or fruits of your labor? I have a feeling that all you really want is to give Jiggs some respect or a chance in the competitive scene. I mean I could proclaim Ganon is not as bad as people make him out to be as he has a decent combo game and extreme damage racking moves, while also having a plethora of kill moves, so people are just underestimating how good Ganon is.

"If your character cannot beat the aforementioned 3, how do you think Jiggs can beat the likes of Snake, and DDD?" Doesn't this seem a bit flawed? All characters are a bit unique and this leads to some fairly dynamic interactions. Assuming Jiggs loses to Ness/Luigi/Yoshi they are all completely different characters from Snake/DDD and might not necessarily have the same outcomes.

I am saying this with some uncertainty since I literally do not play Jiggs nor do I play against one. I could guess at some of her capabilities from watching or playing with a CPU, but without that solid experience base I am a bit hesitant about her placement.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

How am I meant to show the fruits of my labour?
I haven't played against a notable player, so how can I beat one?
I only get to play against my country's best once a year when I've saved up enough to travel to Melbourne. The year before last I forfeited due to not sleeping the night before/being hungover, the years before that I was a Meta Knight main, and I haven't bothered to practice Brawl since last year because it's dying and not as fun as Melee.
This isn't meant to be a john or what the ****, I am by no means a good player and I don't deserve to place better than I do or any of that nonsense; but blaming Jigglypuff for my lack of success is ********.

You might say that her low tier position and lack of results indicate that she is ****
HOWEVER I can just as easily say that Puff's lack of results is because of VISIBLY terrible Jigglypuff mains (as in, I could link to a match and point out an inarguably bad decision every few seconds. Call it hindsight bias if you'd like, but these bad decisions also take the form of missing guaranteed follow-ups or positioning terribly after landing a hit; these aren't decision making things, these are muscle memory/character control things). Or the fact that she was immediately disregarded as **** because people didn't play her properly, so she never got a chance to develop (Marth was in the exact same situation, but because he's a popular character people actually did realize his potential). Or the fact that she doesn't fill a niche like she does in Melee - why would people take time to get good with Puff when they have Wario and META KNIGHT available?

Clear your mind of biases created by the tier list, Man Li Gi, base your opinion on what you know about Jigglypuff as a character. If you feel like she has flaws in that regard, then you're right. If you feel like those flaws make her comparable to Ganondorf, then you're wrong and I'd be happy to correct you on them.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Even after all that, Jiggs is still bad. I will say this though, I do think Jiggs is better than Link and more on par with Falcon/Mario.

But Mario is utter trash too, dont know why people think hes so much better than he is, and thats saying a lot considering nobody thinks Mario is good.

EDIT: Man I really want to rant on how skull ****ingly bad Mario is for some reason, someone pls give me a reason to. Like, why the hell is he not bottom 5 on the tier list? **** man. The thing I REALLY dont get is how he's still above Samus. HOW, like wat. He has the same problems she does, plus even more problems AND one of the ****tiest recoveries. Only things he's got are like Up B OoS which gets hella predictable when its your only option and then like, combos on Snake and a few other characters youll never see but he loses to regardless anyway.

 

[Man Li Gi]

How am I meant to show the fruits of my labour? Doing decent in tournies
I haven't played against a notable player, so how can I beat one?
I only get to play against my country's best once a year when I've saved up enough to travel to Melbourne. The year before last I forfeited due to not sleeping the night before/being hungover, the years before that I was a Meta Knight main, and I haven't bothered to practice Brawl since last year because it's dying and not as fun as Melee.
This isn't meant to be a john or what the ****, I am by no means a good player and I don't deserve to place better than I do or any of that nonsense; but blaming Jigglypuff for my lack of success is ********.

You might say that her low tier position and lack of results indicate that she is **** Not really as Ganon is last, but I believe he is at least better than Bowser.
HOWEVER I can just as easily say that Puff's lack of results is because of VISIBLY terrible Jigglypuff mains (as in, I could link to a match and point out an inarguably bad decision every few seconds. Didn't you get the Dk stomp on one of your matches? Call it hindsight bias if you'd like, but these bad decisions also take the form of missing guaranteed follow-ups or positioning terribly after landing a hit; these aren't decision making things, these are muscle memory/character control things). Or the fact that she was immediately disregarded as **** because people didn't play her properly, so she never got a chance to develop (Marth was in the exact same situation, but because he's a popular character people actually did realize his potential). Or the fact that she doesn't fill a niche like she does in Melee - why would people take time to get good with Puff when they have Wario and META KNIGHT available? She was actually good in Melee though, Rest was powerful, Bair was great too and lack of Stale Moves also helped.

Clear your mind of biases created by the tier list, Man Li Gi, base your opinion on what you know about Jigglypuff as a character. If you feel like she has flaws in that regard, then you're right. If you feel like those flaws make her comparable to Ganondorf, then you're wrong and I'd be happy to correct you on them. My mindset of biases created by the tier list. Mind you, I got into the competitive scene through Brawl and did not know about the competitive scene until 2 years in. I played as every character in my scrub phase. When found out about the tiers, I went straight to maining the low tiers because I wanted to prove why they SHOULD not be low tiers. After playing Jiggs and the Hyrule Gang for about a 1 1/2, I realized the reasoning for their placement. I do not go from the tier placement to make statements, but from my personal experience. Each time you claim Jiggs is good, I wonder why and how you base that statement. The Ganon comparison is to show how futile your argument is (though I do believe he is better than Link and Zelda).

"If your character cannot beat the aforementioned 3, how do you think Jiggs can beat the likes of Snake, and DDD?" Doesn't this seem a bit flawed? All characters are a bit unique and this leads to some fairly dynamic interactions. Assuming Jiggs loses to Ness/Luigi/Yoshi they are all completely different characters from Snake/DDD and might not necessarily have the same outcomes. Reason why D3 and Snake were brought up is because they counter the three aerial beasts named before. D3 can wall out Jiggs with Bair and Fair, has an anti air Utilt, can space with Ftilt, Shield grab all day, Waddle Dees and Doos. Jiggs really has to be frame perfect on approaching and killing D3. Snake give Jiggs trouble in the name of Utilt, jab, Ftilt, nades, and Tech chase. It is not complete destruction like it would be against D3, but still to the same effect (which is why even Luigi can sometimes fare decently against Snake).

I am saying this with some uncertainty since I literally do not play Jiggs nor do I play against one. I could guess at some of her capabilities from watching or playing with a CPU, but without that solid experience base I am a bit hesitant about her placement.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ew, how can you think Ganon is better than Bowser.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Jigglypuff is one of the stronger low tier characters, just nobody ridiculously good plays her, but she's definitely not bottom tier, that's a joke.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Jigglypuff is one of the stronger low tier characters, just nobody ridiculously good plays her, but she's definitely not bottom tier, that's a joke.

Does this mean when you're done getting D3 back in high tier you'll get Puff out of Bottom tier?

 

[BlueXenon]

@ Vex Kasrani
Can you please write a short description of the DDD MK match up?
I will never understand why DK's MK match up was changed to -2 while DDD's stayed at -3.

 

[Thor]

I wanted to write a rant to Grim Tuesday (mainly on the topic of what the last paragraph discusses) but I'll just agree that most the Jigglypuff players probably just suck (Second match): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBpsZW-pJZE Oh wait he's good, just at Melee...

I don't think Jiggs is [much] better than Lucas, if at all. I'm not sure Jiggs beats Samus either (on the tier list), but top of low tier wouldn't be unsurprising if M2K/someone else good (M2K just pulls stuff like this a lot) started playing with Jiggs in tourney the way he plays with Mewtwo in Melee throwaway matches and shows people that Jiggs isn't that bad. That said, Jigg's place won't move much until her MU chart does (if it does), because the chart says she loses vs the top 70% of the cast. I'd also be interested to see other low-tier players (of CF, Link, etc.) come in here and defend their characters against Jiggs (it's more fun that way than watching a one-sided rant in favor of moving her up).

That said, the idea that Jiggs is anywhere near top tier is still utterly ridiculous, as her range and damage output is not great and she dies off the top earliest and off the sides second-earliest (according to some testing data I read). Go to any of the top tiers and they have much more efficient damage building, generally more highly rewarding payoffs for a read (I guess Rest reads count as highly rewarding but they're only really rewarding at percents above like 70 - otherwise you're eating a partially charged smash attack or a Falcon Punch), and they're (at least somewhat) heavier (generally surviving at least double-digit percentages more, with Snake it's over 50%+). They also generally have easy to land KO moves (although I think Jiggs may have a few of those in DACUS usmash and fair).

There are also some homosexuals I know who were offended that you would compare the murder (in less liberal parts of the world) and harassment (pretty much universal at this point, there are people who do it in every country) of people because they are attracted to people of the same sex to a pile of code in a video game being lower on a rankings list than you'd like to see it as being equally unreasonable and awful. But I get the feeling you care more about Jigglypuff than real people because you can't actually see those people but you can turn on Brawl and use Rest and bair and stuff, so I'll just drop it.

Write-up from Vex would be cool if it's because we want a current write-up. Otherwise, don't the Dedede boards have an MU thread for that?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I wanted to write a rant to Grim Tuesday (mainly on the topic of what the last paragraph discusses) but I'll just agree that most the Jigglypuff players probably just suck (Second match): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBpsZW-pJZE Oh wait he's good, just at Melee...

When Hbox air dodges more than he bairs you know he isn't taking it seriously at all. Besides, put a Melee player using a Low tier against one of the best MK mains in the world what the **** do you think is going to happen? Linking to that match to prove any point other than "Hbox doesn't care about Brawl" is like using this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UKpl9VbPBM to say that Ganon beats MK.

I don't think Jiggs is [much] better than Lucas, if at all. I'm not sure Jiggs beats Samus either (on the tier list), but top of low tier wouldn't be unsurprising if M2K/someone else good (M2K just pulls stuff like this a lot) started playing with Jiggs in tourney the way he plays with Mewtwo in Melee throwaway matches and shows people that Jiggs isn't that bad. That said, Jigg's place won't move much until her MU chart does (if it does), because the chart says she loses vs the top 70% of the cast. I'd also be interested to see other low-tier players (of CF, Link, etc.) come in here and defend their characters against Jiggs (it's more fun that way than watching a one-sided rant in favor of moving her up).

Other Low tier players don't argue because they know they're wrong.

That said, the idea that Jiggs is anywhere near top tier is still utterly ridiculous, as her range and damage output is not great and she dies off the top earliest and off the sides second-earliest (according to some testing data I read). Go to any of the top tiers and they have much more efficient damage building, generally more highly rewarding payoffs for a read (I guess Rest reads count as highly rewarding but they're only really rewarding at percents above like 70 - otherwise you're eating a partially charged smash attack or a Falcon Punch), and they're (at least somewhat) heavier (generally surviving at least double-digit percentages more, with Snake it's over 50%+). They also generally have easy to land KO moves (although I think Jiggs may have a few of those in DACUS usmash and fair).

Nobody was arguing that Jigglypuff is Top Tier at all... Are we reading the same thread?

There are also some homosexuals I know who were offended that you would compare the murder (in less liberal parts of the world) and harassment (pretty much universal at this point, there are people who do it in every country) of people because they are attracted to people of the same sex to a pile of code in a video game being lower on a rankings list than you'd like to see it as being equally unreasonable and awful. But I get the feeling you care more about Jigglypuff than real people because you can't actually see those people but you can turn on Brawl and use Rest and bair and stuff, so I'll just drop it.

When the **** did Grim say anything about Murdering and harassing gay people?

 

[Man Li Gi]

Ew, how can you think Ganon is better than Bowser.

Easy, tournament results favor Ganon and a strangely decent combo game that works best on fat characters.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Man Li Gi, learn to use quote tags plz

Doing decent in tournies

Second or first place at every local I enter. Haven't really had a chance to place well in a major since she became my main.
If the best Ganon in the world came to my state, played enough friendlies for us to learn the match-up (as I have done) and then entered a local, he wouldn't break top 3.

She was actually good in Melee though, Rest was powerful, Bair was great too and lack of Stale Moves also helped.

That wasn't the point. You are bad at grasping points.

Didn't you get the Dk stomp on one of your matches?

That was a great read on my friend's part, and I didn't say that I don't make mistakes. I am far, far too aggressive with Puff (she should run away against the majority of the cast when she gets the lead), my Pound usage leaves a lot to be desired (it's one of her best moves, I get punished for doing it predictably way too often), I don't use her grab game enough, I stale her fair too often and I only get the Rests I know she is capable of when I'm playing at my absolute best.

I'm just considerably better than anyone else who plays her.

My mindset of biases created by the tier list. Mind you, I got into the competitive scene through Brawl and did not know about the competitive scene until 2 years in. I played as every character in my scrub phase. When found out about the tiers, I went straight to maining the low tiers because I wanted to prove why they SHOULD not be low tiers. After playing Jiggs and the Hyrule Gang for about a 1 1/2, I realized the reasoning for their placement. I do not go from the tier placement to make statements, but from my personal experience. Each time you claim Jiggs is good, I wonder why and how you base that statement. The Ganon comparison is to show how futile your argument is (though I do believe he is better than Link and Zelda).

Deciding that Jigglypuff is Trash 101:
Step #1: Pick Jigglypuff
Step #2: Spam short hop forward air or Pound predictably. Go for Rollouts and Rests haphazardly.
Step #3: Lose badly, blame the character for your own inadequacies.
Step #4: Jigglypuff is now trash tier, in your opinion!

There are also some homosexuals I know who were offended that you would compare the murder (in less liberal parts of the world) and harassment (pretty much universal at this point, there are people who do it in every country) of people because they are attracted to people of the same sex to a pile of code in a video game being lower on a rankings list than you'd like to see it as being equally unreasonable and awful. But I get the feeling you care more about Jigglypuff than real people because you can't actually see those people but you can turn on Brawl and use Rest and bair and stuff, so I'll just drop it.

Speaking as a homosexual myself, your friends can harden the **** up and turn off their victim complex for a second so they can understand that I wasn't comparing the magnitude of the two things, but rather the backwards thinking that leads to people believing the two things.

Nobody was arguing that Jigglypuff is Top Tier at all... Are we reading the same thread?

...
while this is true
I actually do, sincerely, believe that Jigglypuff isn't just underrated, she's REALLY underrated
but I have no intention of changing anyone's minds about that, I'll need to do it through my own performance (or maybe I'll end up changing my own mind in the process. who knows?)

 

[Z'zgashi]

Easy, tournament results favor Ganon and a strangely decent combo game that works best on fat characters.

Lol, everyone has a pocket Ganon which is why he even has results. Plus DLA and Verm. And if youre talking combos, you clearly dont know how Bowser works, he has jab resets on most of the cast and grab releases on the entire cast (except DK) which can even confirm kills on at least half. He also has an air grab that auto cancels in literally 0 frames, top 10 air speed, a great fair (his arms are intangible during the attacks where he claws with them) and has a decent out of shield game. Just nobody plays Bowser because hes actually really hard to use and requires precise spacing and such, then even after that hes still +4'd by a couple characters and isnt that good, whereas Ganon is like 'lol auto cancel dairs and spam uair'. Having a scrub destroying Ganon is easy, but having a scrub destroying Bowser requires knowing the character, and when youre Low Tier and hard to use, you hardly see any use at all.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Deciding that Jigglypuff is Trash 101:
Step #1: Pick Jigglypuff
Step #2: Spam short hop forward air or Pound predictably. Go for Rollouts and Rests haphazardly.
Step #3: Lose badly

You just described exactly how I play Jigglypuff.

btw Puff is my new main cuz MK is boring now. Tournament this weekend, let's see how I do (hint: it will be just as good if not better than my MK)

 

[Man Li Gi]

Man Li Gi, learn to use quote tags plz I can, but this is a more precise way of addressing a certain issue.

Second or first place at every local I enter. Haven't really had a chance to place well in a major since she became my main.
If the best Ganon in the world came to my state, played enough friendlies for us to learn the match-up (as I have done) and then entered a local, he wouldn't break top 3. Well that is the point, you don't usually get that opportunity. The highlight of a great Smasher is to be able to adapt.


That wasn't the point. You are bad at grasping points.
Neigh, you are my friend. You claimed that jiggs was a niche character implying that just since Jiggs does well against the best characters, but not the whole cast, she was top tier.


That was a great read on my friend's part, and I didn't say that I don't make mistakes. I am far, far too aggressive with Puff (she should run away against the majority of the cast when she gets the lead), my Pound usage leaves a lot to be desired (it's one of her best moves, I get punished for doing it predictably way too often), I don't use her grab game enough, I stale her fair too often and I only get the Rests I know she is capable of when I'm playing at my absolute best.
Bair man
I'm just considerably better than anyone else who plays her.
True


Deciding that Jigglypuff is Trash 101:
Step #1: Pick Jigglypuff
Step #2: Spam short hop forward air or Pound predictably. Go for Rollouts and Rests haphazardly.
Step #3: Lose badly, blame the character for your own inadequacies.
Step #4: Jigglypuff is now trash tier, in your opinion!
Considering I started out trying to learn Jiggs in all 3 iterations, this condescending statement is not needed. I abuse the Bair, Fair, Uair, and even the Drill (only in 64 though). Rests are only done if I can get a jab reset in Melee, or I read my opponent.

Lol, everyone has a pocket Ganon which is why he even has results. Plus DLA and Verm. And if youre talking combos, you clearly dont know how Bowser works, he has jab resets on most of the cast and grab releases on the entire cast (except DK) which can even confirm kills on at least half. He also has an air grab that auto cancels in literally 0 frames, top 10 air speed, a great fair (his arms are intangible during the attacks where he claws with them) and has a decent out of shield game. Just nobody plays Bowser because hes actually really hard to use and requires precise spacing and such, then even after that hes still +4'd by a couple characters and isnt that good, whereas Ganon is like 'lol auto cancel dairs and spam uair'. Having a scrub destroying Ganon is easy You have to be joking, but having a scrub destroying Bowser requires knowing the character, and when youre Low Tier and hard to use, you hardly see any use at all.

I don't think everyone has a pocket Ganon (if they do, prove it). Yeah I know Bowser (I think I said I tried to learn each Low tier). I argue that Ganon is harder to use because at least Bowser has an OoS killer in the Fortress and has his Utilt. Precise spacing for Ganon's Fair is also needed as it really does net a kill. To me Ganon is way better than Bowser still.