Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I can, but this is a more precise way of addressing a certain issue.

No it isn't

Neigh, you are my friend. You claimed that jiggs was a niche character implying that just since Jiggs does well against the best characters, but not the whole cast, she was top tier.

No he didn't.

Grim can respond to the rest of your absurdity.

 

[Man Li Gi]

No it isn't Yes it is


No he didn't. Yes he did

Grim can respond to the rest of your absurdity.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I don't think everyone has a pocket Ganon (if they do, prove it).

Show me someone that doesnt have a pocket Ganon for at least friendlies. Now find me even just 1 or 2 people that will even touch Bowser outside of Random select at any given tournament.

I argue that Ganon is harder to use because at least Bowser has an OoS killer in the Fortress and has his Utilt.

Except both of those are still easily punished. The reason Bowser is hard is because he has no go to option in any situation, where as 95% of the time youre attacking with Ganon, it's either uair or dair.

Precise spacing for Ganon's Fair is also needed as it really does net a kill.

Precise spacing is required for any bad character. Besides, Ganon's fair doesnt need spacing, it needs reads, no matter how good you space it, youre going to get punished for it if it doesnt hit.

To me Ganon is way better than Bowser still.

It pains me that anybody can say this and actually mean it.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

No he didn't. Yes he did

Reading comprehension buddy. What he actually said was that Brawl Puff doesn't fill a niche, while Melee Puff does, which causes people to not experiment with Brawl Puff nearly as much as they did with Melee Puff.

And just to help you understand what Grim's point actually was, the the Niche Puff fills in Melee is highly mobile aerial character. Being the only character that plays like that in that game, people used Puff and figured stuff out with her. Brawl has MK and Wario filling that niche though, and so nobody experimented with Brawl Puff because she wasn't as good as the other characters that play similarly.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Results don't lie my friend. 95% of Ganon's moveset is viable after FC, probably the most 2nd most after Uair. Dair is a close 3rd. I play with Bowser quite frequently for friendlies anyway, but Manon is just cooler to me. His fair, the sweetspot is pretty decent on shields. It pains me that people want argue that Bowser is better than Ganon while complaining how tough he is to play in general. Ganon has always been a straight-forward character, so there really should any complaints about how he plays.

Reading comprehension buddy. What he actually said was that Brawl Puff doesn't fill a niche, while Melee Puff does, which causes people to not experiment with Brawl Puff nearly as much as they did with Melee Puff. She still fills the WoP role she did in Melee.

And just to help you understand what Grim's point actually was, the the Niche Puff fills in Melee is highly mobile aerial character. Being the only character that plays like that in that game, people used Puff and figured stuff out with her. Brawl has MK and Wario filling that niche though, and so nobody experimented with Brawl Puff because she wasn't as good as the other characters that play similarly. I guess Peach, Yoshi, Ness, Luigi, M2 and to a lesser degree, Kirby are also not mobile in Melee. I assume you are referring to the fact that in Melee, she was the best at making a WoP.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Wall of Pain = All Puff can do apparently

Every post you make betrays how little you understand about Smash.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ganon has always been a straight-forward character

You literally just said Ganon was hard to play, and now youre saying he's straight forward? Do you even know what either of those statements mean?

And Gerudo is DEFINITELY not his best move, its SO easy to punish on whiff. It may be great for tech chases and reads, but it is NOT a good move to just throw out there or rely on, unlike uair or fair which are relatively safe to throw out in pressure situations.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Ganon's best moves are easily up air and dash attack. I play much more Ganon then I do Bowser in friendlies, but I'll say that Bowser is absolutely better, he has range with decent speed, kill setups, potential huge damage from grabs, and an aerial tech chase can lead into an upair killing at 70 which is absurd.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Every post you make betrays how little you understand about Smash. WoP is not the only thing about Jiggs, but it is the best and most important thing about Jiggs (well besides Rest).

You literally just said Ganon was hard to play, and now youre saying he's straight forward? Do you even know what either of those statements mean?

And Gerudo is DEFINITELY not his best move, its SO easy to punish on whiff. It may be great for tech chases and reads, but it is NOT a good move to just throw out there or rely on, unlike uair or fair which are relatively safe to throw out in pressure situations.

Since when do Ganons just throw out Fairs in Brawl? Shows your familiarity. Of course Ganon is hard because of the lag of his attacks, but is relatively straight-forward compared to some other Low Tiers like Zelda's counter offensive playstyle and other low tiers. FC is not his best attack, but one the most used ones. His DA is an amazing option, but stales too quickly.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Since when do Ganons just throw out Fairs in Brawl? Shows your familiarity. Of course Ganon is hard because of the lag of his attacks, but is relatively straight-forward compared to some other Low Tiers like Zelda's counter offensive playstyle and other low tiers. FC is not his best attack, but one the most used ones. His DA is an amazing option, but stales too quickly.

Every post you make betrays how little you understand about Smash.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Man Li Gi:
It might be more precise for YOU to reply like that, but it's a headache for everyone else because we can't just quote it.

Being able to beat someone who doesn't know the match-up says nothing about how good the character is.

"You claimed that jiggs was a niche character"
I said that Jigglypuff fills a niche in Melee (as the best floaty, mobile aerial-based character). She doesn't fill this role in Brawl.

"Implying that just since Jiggs does well against the best characters, but not the whole cast, she was top tier."
I didn't say or imply anything even closely related to this. Jigglypuff does pretty much equally well against the whole cast, but certainly slightly better against lower tiers.

Wall of pain is the dumbest term and people should stop saying it. Not only is there discrepancy between whether it refers to the wall that Jigglypuff puts up with bairs, or the way she can carry people across the stage, but both of these aspects of her character are exceedingly broad. Trying to label them as a specific technique is beyond ********, and

betrays how little you understand about Smash.

 

[BlueXenon]

Since when do Ganons just throw out Fairs in Brawl? Shows your familiarity. Of course Ganon is hard because of the lag of his attacks, but is relatively straight-forward compared to some other Low Tiers like Zelda's counter offensive playstyle and other low tiers. FC is not his best attack, but one the most used ones. His DA is an amazing option, but stales too quickly.

I don't understand any of your posts. You may have some misconceptions about the game or you need to learn more about how top level play works.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I don't understand any of your posts. You may have some misconceptions about the game or you need to learn more about how any level play works.

fixed that for you

 

[BlueXenon]

fixed that for you

You didn't fix it. You made it sound more rude.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Man Li Gi:
It might be more precise for YOU to reply like that, but it's a headache for everyone else because we can't just quote it.

Being able to beat someone who doesn't know the match-up says nothing about how good the character is.

"You claimed that jiggs was a niche character"
I said that Jigglypuff fills a niche in Melee (as the best floaty, mobile aerial-based character). She doesn't fill this role in Brawl.

"Implying that just since Jiggs does well against the best characters, but not the whole cast, she was top tier."
I didn't say or imply anything even closely related to this. Jigglypuff does pretty much equally well against the whole cast, but certainly slightly better against lower tiers.

Wall of pain is the dumbest term and people should stop saying it. Not only is there discrepancy between whether it refers to the wall that Jigglypuff puts up with bairs, or the way she can carry people across the stage, but both of these aspects of her character are exceedingly broad. Trying to label them as a specific technique is beyond ********, and

Considering other characters can be completely shut down approaches or wall out the options....WoP is an apt name.

I don't understand any of your posts. You may have some misconceptions about the game or you need to learn more about how top level play works.

I understand how it works.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN

Is Man Li Gi cleverbot?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The most elaborate troll in Smash Boards history, lol.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Btw, when I said fair, that was a typo, I meant dair, damn D and F key being next to each other on the keyboard. Also, bair could also be added to that list but usually you'd want to just uair in order to keep bair fresh for a KO later.

 

[Thor]

When the **** did Grim say anything about Murdering and harassing gay people?

When he said "believing that Jigglypuff is bottom tier in 2014 is as backwards as not supporting equal rights for homosexuals there's just no excuse for it anymore," it is quite clearly equivocating: to not move Jigglypuff out of the bottom tier is to be advocating that gays are not worthy of rights, which manifests through murdering and harassing gay people all over the world [because they are labeled subhuman], therefore not moving that piece of code up on a list of viability is just as bad and backward as murdering and harassing gay people.

Other Low tier players don't argue because they know they're wrong.

Other low tier players don't argue in here because they know you're wrong and to explain why would be a waste of time because you'd just ignore them. And now we have each provided statements without proof. This will obviously go somewhere quickly...

Or get some of them in here so they can agree with you and I'll say whatever, then you'll need to have the BBR fix the list and move Jiggs up, then I'll believe it. But I'm fairly certain that neither of these things will happen.

Nobody was arguing that Jigglypuff is Top Tier at all... Are we reading the same thread?

You Jigglypuff hacks always take it to "Jigglypuff for SSSSSSSSS tier, Fox for Z tier" so I decided to debunk it right there. I also said "nowhere near top tier" to imply (like Vex said) she's at best low mid tier (Luigi tier at the highest in my opinion, MAYBE right below Yoshi at the very bottom if they're generous). This was more a response to where this thread usually goes than to where it's actually been recently.

When Hbox air dodges more than he bairs you know he isn't taking it seriously at all. Besides, put a Melee player using a Low tier against one of the best MK mains in the world what the **** do you think is going to happen? Linking to that match to prove any point other than "Hbox doesn't care about Brawl" is like using this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UKpl9VbPBM to say that Ganon beats MK.

I was half making fun of Hbox for playing like dirt (the only Brawl footage of him I can find) and half agreeing with Grim's point that most Jiggs suck, because the commentators are like "ooh, Hbox, it's Hbox he must be good." That's why I put "Oh wait, he's good at Melee..." or something like that.

Genuinely I wanted to ask if someone knew where this Dapuffster vs M2K footage mentioned in the match was, because I couldn't find it and it sounded both entertaining and like something worth seeing. Then I forgot to mention that in my last post so it turned to drivel.

I did enjoy that match you posted though. That final smash and M2K planking.

EDIT: Man, you guys are so good at steering it back to Jiggypuff... didn't we leave off somewhere about Dedede's inhale being really good for landing vs ICs, and that ftilt trades with blizzard?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Dapuffster vs. M2K happened in like 2008 or some ****, no footage exists as far as I know

When he said "believing that Jigglypuff is bottom tier in 2014 is as backwards as not supporting equal rights for homosexuals there's just no excuse for it anymore," it is quite clearly equivocating: to not move Jigglypuff out of the bottom tier is to be advocating that gays are not worthy of rights, which manifests through murdering and harassing gay people all over the world [because they are labeled subhuman], therefore not moving that piece of code up on a list of viability is just as bad and backward as murdering and harassing gay people.

Yes, that's quite clearly what I was equivocating

You've uncovered my secret vendetta against the homosexuals, and for that I applaud you

 

[infiniteV115]

Dunno who said it cause apparently they're on my ignore list but I don't know where you got the idea that moves don't stale in Melee. They most certainly do.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Btw, when I said fair, that was a typo, I meant dair, damn D and F key being next to each other on the keyboard. Also, bair could also be added to that list but usually you'd want to just uair in order to keep bair fresh for a KO later.

You said the right words this time and a like is what you receive.

Dunno who said it cause apparently they're on my ignore list but I don't know where you got the idea that moves don't stale in Melee. They most certainly do.

I thought they just stale in percentage not in knockback. Could be wrong.

The most elaborate troll in Smash Boards history, lol.

I will take that title with stride:

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Knockback in Melee is calculated with a move's fresh percentage, where-as it is calculated with the staled percentage in Brawl

Aside from projectiles, which are calculated Brawl-style in both games

 

[infiniteV115]

Huh I didn't know that. Source?

 

[Man Li Gi]

Huh I didn't know that. Source?

I was also surprised by the statement.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't have a source, I'm afraid, it's a piece of information I picked up along my travels.

If someone with the know-how can either confirm or deny it, that'd be appreciated.

 

[Man Li Gi]

This is the best I could muster up:http://clashtournaments.com/mew2kings-melee-information-and-discoveries/.

 

[infiniteV115]

It only mentions percentages, which I assume is supposed to be representative of damage (and not knockback) under the Attack Power Deterioration category

 

[Man Li Gi]

Yeah I know. I thought if anyone had in depth knowledge of the specifics in Smash, M2K would be the best. Anyway, it is strange how the Brawl thread always end up talking about Melee.

 

[1PokeMastr]

You know, it's really easy to check by yourself, in game.

 

[Man Li Gi]

You know, it's really easy to check by yourself, in game.

If we are still talking about Melee in a Brawl thread and the specifics of staling in Melee, I have tested it out multiple times beforehand, and never has the knockback deteriorated, but damage does. I brought M2k's stat sheet so others can see it. That is all.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I was talking about brawl by using the base percents and having it reset to 0.
Might take 5-10 minutes for character to be done but.. meh.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

We know how staling works in Brawl
the uncertainty was how it works in melee

 

[1PokeMastr]

I think Luigi beats Snake.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Please tell me you are serious. I have been preaching to my friend that Snake suffers against airborne characters like Luigi, Ness (though the GR realese could be tough as GR->F-tilt or GR->Jab->Ftilt), and maybe Wolf (though Wolf doesn't really have anything as ranged as Snake U-tilt bar the Blaster). I think I have already said that. Maybe it was in a different thread though.

 

[tekkie]

Snake suffers against Ness, and maybe Wolf

this ruseman right here

 

[Z'zgashi]

Snake gets countered by Honey Badgers.

 

[Man Li Gi]

this ruseman right here

If you are saying that I am trolling, I am not. SGJ and Shaky have beaten plenty of Snakes, heck even Kain and FOW did too. Plus I did note that it is possible, but Snake has a plethora of tools to keep them back.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

If you are saying that I am trolling, I am not. SGJ and Shaky have beaten plenty of Snakes, heck even Kain and FOW did too. Plus I did note that it is possible, but Snake has a plethora of tools to keep them back.

Did Seagull, Kain, Shaky and FOW beat any good Snakes?