Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Jimmyfosho]

I have no ZSS experience but the matchup is 60:40.

Lmao, I was hoping I wasn't the only one that noticed it.

 

[RaptorTEC]

@V115 80% of SWF posts in topics like these are theory-crafting. Where've you been?

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Sheik vs ZSS is a +2 Mu for Sheik

 

[infiniteV115]

wa t
no

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I used to be terrified of the Sheik matchup

Back in early 2011 or so, I played dMT who was at the time one of the better Sheik players in the NY area in a few tryhard friendlies and won them all. I talked with him about it after and we both though it was even.

A few little-known facts about the match-up that can be abused: ZSS has a CG on Sheik that puts her off-stage and it's pretty easy to grab Sheik compared to a lot of other characters due to her fall speed. Plus there's the whole "dsmash chain to 90%" thing. I was able to land the CG and chain a few times, it isn't that situational :\

ZSS however gets absolutely destroyed off-stage if she isn't careful, needles are annoying, and Sheik's chasing game (that is, once she hits ZSS once) is absurdly good in the match-up. It almost doesn't matter where ZSS goes, Sheik will find you.

 

[NickRiddle]

Sheik is easy enough.

 

[da K.I.D.]

how do the matches with you and ed typically play out.

 

[NickRiddle]

I win, I don't wreck him, but I am usually in control most of the match. I just d-smash too often so it leaves me vulnerable against how Sheik moves.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

In the ZSS vs Diddy MU, Diddy can duck the banana toss as long as he stays close to ZSS

 

[NickRiddle]

Glide-toss down.
Don't tell me the counter to that is to not be THAT close, your statement was just stupid so I replied with a stupid statement.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That's the only time I could see us really being forced into shield and that is just another option we have.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Key word being almost, I think the only zss to ever beat any good diddy is quiksilver

Yeah, but the good players for the characters are in different regions for the most part. How much of this MU do we get to see that wasn't P1/DRN?

6-4 seems extreme.
Just shield seems stupid. Shielding is good against ZSS and saying it's not is also stupid but she has legitimate shield pressure with or without a grab and the option to grab (while worse than most characters) is still present.

The only one who answered me about why the MU is what it is was Zinoto who admitted to having no experience and he just talked about standing there shooting peanuts which you cannot do for an entire match. You shouldn't even be able to do it most of a match on a lot of stages. Especially with ZSS having a good item game which tends to leave bananas in places that aren't directly in front of Diddy.

Infinite and shield options are part of it, but what happens when Diddy gets hit vs what happens when ZSS gets hit?

 

[Fuujin]

Yeah, but the good players for the characters are in different regions for the most part. How much of this MU do we get to see that wasn't P1/DRN?

6-4 seems extreme.
Just shield seems stupid. Shielding is good against ZSS and saying it's not is also stupid but she has legitimate shield pressure with or without a grab and the option to grab (while worse than most characters) is still present.

The only one who answered me about why the MU is what it is was Zinoto who admitted to having no experience and he just talked about standing there shooting peanuts which you cannot do for an entire match. You shouldn't even be able to do it most of a match on a lot of stages. Especially with ZSS having a good item game which tends to leave bananas in places that aren't directly in front of Diddy.

Infinite and shield options are part of it, but what happens when Diddy gets hit vs what happens when ZSS gets hit?

Can we be done talking about ZSS now?

Yes we know she has a bad grab.
Yes we know sucks against shields.
Yes we know she has a really high short hop.
Yes we know she has banana infinites or some ****.

NEXT

 

[Z'zgashi]

And yet shes still 5 tiers higher than Zelda.

 

[| Big D |]

Still though it's not like she can't grab or anything. People start to shield camp, throw out a grab and condition people to stop shield camping.

 

[Z'zgashi]

btw, what can ZSS do to you out of a grab?

I honestly dont know much about ZSS, and I never play her cuz I forget she exists due to her not even being on the character select screen.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The cruel joke is that ZSS has pretty awesome throws.

Fthrow is a chaingrab on lots of characters and has good followups (lots of frame advantage), it does 9 damage which is pretty decent. I think dthrow is 7, it seems like it shoudl be better but it isn't because there's no frame advantage. Back throw gives you 11 frames to do whatever you want to the guy and throws them off-stage. Uthrow sucks.

She's also got a bunch of grab release cgs/followups and an infinite or two.

I only answered this because I don't like fuujin.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sets up her juggles, GR some characters, fthrow can link into things due to speed if they don't DI properly

Ninja'd. And her infinites don't involve grab, do they?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sets up her juggles, GR some characters, fthrow can link into things due to speed if they don't DI properly

Ninja'd. And her infinites don't involve grab, do they?

There's a grab release infinite on squirtle and probably wario.

She also grab release->aerials a bunch of characters because she's ridiculously tall

 

[| Big D |]

If Wario has his bike off stage then I think she has an infinite.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If Wario has his bike off stage then I think she has an infinite.

Err... so some context on the wario infinites:

In 2008 we thought we had an infinite where you'd grab release wario, dsmash him, then pivot grab him so that his feet would slide across the ground, allowing you to grab release->dsmash again. Pretty simple. For a while it worked.

Then Wario players realized they could bike out of the dsmash, so we thought "ok, its infinite if the bike is on stage."

Then, they realized they didn't even have to bike out: they can just DI away (and jump of course).

The dsmash infinite doesn't work, but grab is 3 frames faster and still works with or without the bike.

 

[| Big D |]

Well damn, the more you know.

Has anyone ever talked about the stalling potential of characters grab releases on Wario?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Probably. The issue is that pummels don't deal very much damage and most of the regrabs are buffered, which can be weird to do out of a grab release. It isn't impossible and on paper should really destroy him, but the reality is Wario can probably mash out before like 50%, and after you'd have to successfully perform a million rotations to kill him, with him being so heavy and all.

If you grab Wario at 60% and can manage to do like 40 grab release rotations and kill him with an aerial, more power to you. lol

Oh, stalling. Well as for stalling... isn't it banned?

 

[| Big D |]

Just thinking for characters like Yoshi who have an easier regrab.

You never knows, some TOs may call it while other TOs don't.

Our TO is a Yoshi main so...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lol, just get 1% ahead and regrab him until time.

awesome.

 

[NickRiddle]

Regrabs with no pummels is stalling.
You need to grab him at like 80 to reliably do it to somebody like Reflex.

 

[Delta-cod]

Probably. The issue is that pummels don't deal very much damage and most of the regrabs are buffered, which can be weird to do out of a grab release. It isn't impossible and on paper should really destroy him, but the reality is Wario can probably mash out before like 50%, and after you'd have to successfully perform a million rotations to kill him, with him being so heavy and all.

If you grab Wario at 60% and can manage to do like 40 grab release rotations and kill him with an aerial, more power to you. lol

Oh, stalling. Well as for stalling... isn't it banned?

I mean, Yoshi can do the Wario GR infinite, which I'm pretty sure is also a buffered standing grab cycle, so I don't wanna here the it's too hard excuse. It's really not that difficult to do anyways.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It isn't exclusively the difficulty, it's more about the risk vs reward. You have to do it perfectly like 100 times when you could just fair him for the easy 17% and be done with it. If you mess up you get farted. Not cool.

 

[Tesh]

The cruel joke is that ZSS has pretty awesome throws.

Fthrow is a chaingrab on lots of characters and has good followups (lots of frame advantage), it does 9 damage which is pretty decent. I think dthrow is 7, it seems like it shoudl be better but it isn't because there's no frame advantage. Back throw gives you 11 frames to do whatever you want to the guy and throws them off-stage. Uthrow sucks.

She's also got a bunch of grab release cgs/followups and an infinite or two.

I only answered this because I don't like fuujin.

Hey upthrow aint so bad. It does 11 damage and kills!!

 

[Z'zgashi]

It isn't exclusively the difficulty, it's more about the risk vs reward. You have to do it perfectly like 100 times when you could just fair him for the easy 17% and be done with it. If you mess up you get farted. Not cool.

As a Bowser+Yoshi main, both of their standing infinites are pretty easy to do, Bowser's more so cuz his grab is more immediate (although once you learn the visual cues for Yoshi's its pretty easy as well). The problem is you just do damage sooooooo slow. 1-2% per release is sooooo long lol.

 

[infiniteV115]

Xonar told me that buffering the regrab causes it to come out too early, and that you have to initiate the grab on the 3rd-4th available frame (to do the standing regrab infinite on Wario)

Maybe this'll give you something to test, SFP.

 

[Luco]

Just played some people online, whose mains were mostly snake and marth... and they knew what they were doing. I think I did well but man I really hate my marth match-up. Snake is meh. Falco felt easy in comparison. ><

And how do you get an air release infinite with yoshi? I imagine it takes foot stooling and stuff like that?

 

[Xyro77]

I can see Peach's struggle with Samus' heavy weight. It also must be hard for her to get around zair [she's slow on the ground and her aerial movement via float is rather telegraphed] and Samus' upB out of shield looks like a reasonable answer to Peach's so-called 'shield pressure'. I wouldn't be surprised if it actually was even. Too bad the match-up has never been played in tourney a lot other than Xyro vs Illmatic. I would love to see how quiK plays it against reaper / Leon and how YB does against Kie.

I've beat ever peach main I've ever faced. Razmakazi/Nicole/Silly Kyle/Illmatic (he's also beat me a lot too). I'm not saying I'm better or anything I'm just saying I think peach vs samus is EVEN.

Also, UP+B Is not safe on anything peach has unless you power shield or they are slow.

 

[infiniteV115]

No Luco, just buffered standing regrab iirc

Or maybe it isn't buffered, but it's just a standing regrab. Wario air releases and falls right back into his standing regrab lol

Or maybe it's a pivot grab. But I'm fairly certain it's a buffered standing regrab.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wow, how bad does a character have to be to go even with Samus?

...

 

[Luco]

No Luco, just buffered standing regrab iirc

Or maybe it isn't buffered, but it's just a standing regrab. Wario air releases and falls right back into his standing regrab lol

Or maybe it's a pivot grab. But I'm fairly certain it's a buffered standing regrab.

That raises more questions than it answers lol. o.O

But okay. :D

 

[infiniteV115]

My point was that you don't need to footstool.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi can standing regrab infinite Wario.

He can also retreating pivot grab infinite Wario.

He can also cross-up pivot grab infinite Wario.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Whos GR is a bigger problem, wario or ness?

 

[infiniteV115]

Ness', cause Wario doesn't have the frame disadvantage that Ness/Lucas have, which allows for stupid things out of ground release like

Snake ftilt
Marth, Lucario, MK, Charizard (and probably a lot of other characters) regrab
Falco usmash
Probably Diddy dsmash

..A lot of nasty ****

And with Ness and Lucas, you can freely pummel to build up damage and refresh your other moves and they're almost guaranteed to break out on the ground, which allows for the nasty followups I just mentioned.

If Wario breaks out of the pummel onto the ground, he doesn't get ****ed over as badly as Ness/Lucas do