Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Grim Tuesday]

I always assumed it was a known thing, I've been doing it since I picked him up last year o_O

I already thing ROB is a bit underrated, just judging from OCEAN. I don't really see the American ROBs trying to emulate him though; too set in their ways? Iunno.

I know that OCEAN learnt a lot from the American ROBs, though, his strategy became a lot more solid and less based on gimmicks when he started interacting with the community through Youtube and ****, imo.

EDIT: Tesh
You can mix it up with things - not an easy stage spike.
It is not difficult to do, human error shouldn't come into it if I can do it perfectly 100 times in a row after playing Brawl for the first time in a week.
It lets you renew invincibility - how is that not good? You don't need to string them together.

Can someone test if it is fully invincible?

 

[Tesh]

Wastes ledge grabs really fast. How exactly does this pressure me to do anything? I can just sit there and shield and you still have to approach me eventually.

Thats why no one cares about planking techniques anymore. Its a good thing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Reading.

Siiiiiiighhhhh

This was initially talking about DK/ROB, right? I play this match-up a ****-ton, and DK can pressure ROB to the ledge just because of the way the characters work.

At this point, if ROB grabs the ledge he can easily take back momentum due to all of his ledge options - DK going back to centre stage is exactly what ROB wants.

If he chooses not to grab the ledge because he is afraid of the LGL, he will probably eat some damage and maybe get KO'd.

Which is why I said DK/ROB is only even if ROB chooses to never touch the ledge. Planking isn't just about forcing an approach, it's about creating opportunities to approach.

Comprehension.

 

[Tesh]

I get your point, I'm just pointing out that you are wrong and planking doesn't create opportunities if your opponent is patient enough to let the LGL work for him.

Every character with a shield can just wait at a safe distance, close enough to punish ROB coming off of the ledge.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't see how when ledge-hop fair is safe on shield against pretty much everyone at max range.
And I'm pretty sure shields go down.

Theory-craft all you want, but ROB does not have a hard time getting back on stage. You can tell just from actually watching the character play.

 

[smashkng]

Fair isn't really safe against good ledge trappers. It's definitely also punishable on whiff. And I don't see how will ROB reliably space Fairs to get it spaced perfectly from ledge hops, especially with ROB's mediocre horizontal aerial movement. I don't see any reliable ways for ROB to get back onstage against characters like Meta Knight and Marth.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

DONKEY KONG.

GUYS.

caps

 

[Claire Diviner]

I don't see how when ledge-hop fair is safe on shield against pretty much everyone at max range.
And I'm pretty sure shields go down.

Theory-craft all you want, but ROB does not have a hard time getting back on stage. You can tell just from actually watching the character play.

DONKEY KONG.

GUYS.

caps

As a former R.O.B. main, I can tell you that Fair isn't the safest option as characters, including DK, can shield it and punish accordingly. It doesn't really do anything to shields, it doesn't have much in the way of a disjoint, and the ending frames last long enough to punish with a grab or some other OoS option. There are other ways R.O.B. can get back on, like Nair or Uair, but overall, his ledge game is only decent from a distance. Up close, there are quite a few characters that shouldn't fear him if they know well what R.O.B.'s options are.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

As a current ROB secondary, quiet you . Bad arguments are backing me into corners and making me say stupid ****.

ROB/DK is +1 ROB's favour; ROB has enough mix-ups to get back on stage against most characters (including DK); planking creates openings for characters to get back on stage because invincible aerials are threatening; the end.

 

[Claire Diviner]

But R.O.B. has no invincibility aerials. In fact, I don't believe any of his moves have invincibility frames. Yes, he can mix up his ledge game, but his ledge options are still few and fairly predictable. Nair is easily telegraphed, Fair is easily shielded, Uair doesn't really deal much knockback at all unless you're somehow fortunate to get that last hit in, Gyro and Laser up close is as punishable as a whiffed/blocked Nair/Fair. R.O.B. pretty much becomes hard-pressed to get back onto the stage. Planking won't do any good as it'll drain his fuel and LGL, giving the opponent a serious advantage real quick. The only other option I can see is either jumping up from the ledge and air-dodging, holding the L/R button, or using a ledge attack and hope that catches the opponent off guard.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I was talking about the invincibility you get from the ledge.
I already explained how ROB's planking doesn't need to drain fuel, and why the LGL doesn't actually matter.

I'm out, this is dumb.

 

[Luigi player]

Giant punch though.

I could see the mu being potentially 55:45 for rob but it wouldnt deserve a +1.

I havent played the mu enough to really see what is all possible. :/

 

[Orion*]

He has several mix-ups to get back on stage; jump away > laser > up-b > nair, air dodge > Dsmash, fair

You can't airdodge as a mixup after upB though unless your notation of what you are trying to accomplish is unclear, and you want to like nair then airdodge which is more dumb sounding imo.

Once again: I was under the impression that the LGL did not come into play unless there was a time out.

Gotta be honest if you're planking me and eating minutes, it wouldnt be hard to not die for like 4 minutes even with 1 stock probably against a character like ROB with most top tier, or viable characters.

Check and mother-****ing mate.

how is that a checkmate?
Even if you proved some random point you made earlier it's not a viable planking solution, it just refreshes invincibility. I'm pretty sure like any character with a half decent read could walk shield torwards the ledge incase you decide to shoot, and then grab the ledge when you drop, assuming you upB on some insta ish you will get hit.

You could drop low, but that uses more fuel. Getting hit by uair and fair aren't really scary enough punishes to make me not want to do this, unless im like falco or something.

Fair isn't really safe against good ledge trappers. It's definitely also punishable on whiff. And I don't see how will ROB reliably space Fairs to get it spaced perfectly from ledge hops, especially with ROB's mediocre horizontal aerial movement. I don't see any reliable ways for ROB to get back onstage against characters like Meta Knight and Marth.

This x10

POST

I don't see how when ledge-hop fair is safe on shield against pretty much everyone at max range.

COMPREHENSION

^ reading this
^ assuming you almost mean everyone, and not DK because you said everyone
^ you get your balls in a nut like other people can't read your posts
^ smh

 

[Claire Diviner]

I was talking about the invincibility you get from the ledge.
I already explained how ROB's planking doesn't need to drain fuel, and why the LGL doesn't actually matter.

I'm out, this is dumb.

The only thing I see useful for the invincibility is edge-hogging a recovering opponent. But why do that when R.O.B. is actually a fairly good gimper? Also, I don't believe invincibility frames from grabbing a ledge will carry over to aerials. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the invincibility wear off the moment the ledge is released, assuming one can let go of the ledge fast enough?

Giant punch though.

I could see the mu being potentially 55:45 for rob but it wouldnt deserve a +1.

I havent played the mu enough to really see what is all possible. :/

The MU, in my opinion, is in R.O.B.'s favor, but not by a whole lot assuming both players know the MU well enough. I know the same holds true for other MUs, but this one especially is a testament to this view.

 

[Luigi player]

Invincibility carries on.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Invincibility carries on.

Thanks.

Knowing that, I don't believe it lasts long enough to improve R.O.B.'s ledge game. In the end, R.O.B. really has nothing in the way of unpredictable tools to getting back on stage.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Glad to see we've managed to break down 4 years of first hand experience and conventional wisdom in one page of this forum thread.

Anyway, most characters in Brawl have terrible ledge options.

You have to be able to go through the stage to come back reliably.

 

[Luigi player]

Thats just a really unsafe gimmick.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Thats just a really unsafe gimmick.

YOu can actually land on the stage.

 

[Luigi player]

I know, but you can easily get hit while doing that.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I know, but you can easily get hit while doing that.

Ah yeah I don't disagree that it's a gimmick. I was making sure you knew you could land though. Obviously if you can't, the guy can just grab the ledge which is what I thought you were referring to.

 

[Orion*]

Invincibility carries on.

sadly i dnot think enough to help rob do anything... maybe drop fair in like rare unrelated gimping circumstances?

Anyway, most characters in Brawl have terrible ledge options.

any character that doesnt have RCO lag always has airdodge, which is quite broken when does perfectly and buffered with the appropriate mixups upon landing. It's not good enough to spam or something, any lingering hitbox while **** it, but frame wise it really is obnoxiously safe and waiting for the right moment to do that is really should be essential for a lot of characters imo

edit: has anyone tested what happens when you get spiked through the stage, and then tech inside the stage XDDD would you just fall out or what??? it would be funny in teams to have like ZSS stock tank inside the stage and poke with dsmash/side B for edge gaurds and like upB vertically.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Air dodge onto the stage is OK but it's risky for the same reasons air dodging into the ground from the air can be risky IMO.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

DK vs ROB is definitely even

 

[infiniteV115]

Ah yeah I don't disagree that it's a gimmick. I was making sure you knew you could land though. Obviously if you can't, the guy can just grab the ledge which is what I thought you were referring to.

Just so you know, even if you don't land on stage, you can easily make it to the other side and grab that edge XD

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Just so you know, even if you don't land on stage, you can easily make it to the other side and grab that edge XD

True, I still agree with LP that's a pretty abusable gimmick :\

 

[Orion*]

Air dodge onto the stage is OK but it's risky for the same reasons air dodging into the ground from the air can be risky IMO.

assuming you can do it perfectly, have 2 frames of lag to punish a landing with a hitbox if they shield, or 3 with a grab if they buffer a spot dodge is not as easy as you think. Like 99% of players do it, and you can just der mash that ish.

assuming your character has good, or even relatively average ones buffering rolls, jab, or other fast options is also extremely good.

Airdodging to the ground is much more telegraphed, assuming you fast fall (which is better) you have 6 (iirc, might be 4 or something but Im pretty sure hard landings are 6) frames of lag instead of 2, which is a significant difference in terms of punishment. It's also much easier to frame trap and option cover someone who just decides to do this without even taking a read. In case of the ledge, you can get unlucky if someone just stuffs hitboxes out, but for a large majority of the cast ledge trapping it is hard, because they just don't have the right hitboxes.

ZSS's downsmash covers that option like on autopilot, and nado also really just destroys it among many other ledge options as well. However I think most other characters aren't gonna be able to do that so easily. Characters like marth you have a small leeway to get in, and if you mess up it's pretty bad (if they read it tipper, or 2nd hit nair option covers a lot of stuff), but his hitboxes just aren't out long enough for him to punish it without him being near perfect, or hard reading you.

 

[infiniteV115]

Marth's dtilt is pretty good as an airdodge landing punish, it's not a strong punish but it's a reliable and safe one

 

[C.J.]

Marth's pivot grab destroys AD landings.

Actually, PGs in general do really well vs AD landings.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Depending on the match up Marth doesn't need to read. He can force responses then just stick out a hitbox where his opponent will land. Usmash, dtilt, nair and dsmash all do the job. I feel only him, mk and a few other chars actually have a metagame based around traps and solid 50/50s. Other chars can do it but those two along with diddy pika, falco and I guess zss...they do it the best IMO. Though diddy and falco are stage control first and foremost.

 

[Dabuz]

But R.O.B. has no invincibility aerials. In fact, I don't believe any of his moves have invincibility frames. Yes, he can mix up his ledge game, but his ledge options are still few and fairly predictable. Nair is easily telegraphed, Fair is easily shielded, Uair doesn't really deal much knockback at all unless you're somehow fortunate to get that last hit in, Gyro and Laser up close is as punishable as a whiffed/blocked Nair/Fair. R.O.B. pretty much becomes hard-pressed to get back onto the stage. Planking won't do any good as it'll drain his fuel and LGL, giving the opponent a serious advantage real quick. The only other option I can see is either jumping up from the ledge and air-dodging, holding the L/R button, or using a ledge attack and hope that catches the opponent off guard.

Up-B has 1 invincibility frame both grounded and aerial.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Up-B has 1 invincibility frame both grounded and aerial.

That's good to know, though as a defensive option for avoiding attacks, it's pretty much crap as most moves have more than a single frame. Thanks though.

 

[infiniteV115]

Dabuz
Why on earth would you choose ****ing olive green as your font colour?!

 

[Dabuz]

Dabuz
Why on earth would you choose ****ing olive green as your font colour?!

"Why wouldn't I?" is a better question.

 

[infiniteV115]

Thank you for responding with a different font colour.
And that question is not better, because the answer is, olive green is the most unpleasant anything ever. That **** smells bad.

 

[Dabuz]

Thank you for responding with a different font colour.
And that question is not better, because the answer is, olive green is the most unpleasant anything ever. That **** smells bad.

Hater, every color is made equal.

 

[infiniteV115]

What's with you and multiple colours?
You switch your costume to be colour-coordinated with each map, and now you type in multiple colours.

You're weird.



Though I suppose it kinda makes sense cause you play Olimar, he's like the only character in the game where (almost) each of his moves has 5 different colours.

 

[Dabuz]

I just like using different colors. The camouflage thing in brawl is a legit strategy to enhance the fact that people struggle to differentiate oli's moves.

Posting wise, I've done this for years because it looks nice ^^;

 

[Sunnysunny]

Thats...actually really freaking clever.

That'd probably be a pretty decent strat as game and watch as well.

 

[infiniteV115]

I think that's more or less why I began to stick with pink ZSS

I mean now, I stick with pink cause it's the best looking one imo, but back when I was a scrub sometimes I couldn't see what I was doing during the dark parts of the background of FD if I was using black...so I went with pink cause it was visible everywhere.

Nick Riddle needs to get off that green&yellow ZSS though. ****'s ugly as ****. It's almost as bad as posting with a ****ing olive green font holy **** DABUZ WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH YOU MAN