Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Emblem Lord]

Ok but look at the matches vs the Marths. I have seen a lot of esam vs Marths and while esam almost always plays amazingly well I cannot say the same for the Marths.

Take Leon for example. Never in my life have I seen such blatant disregard for spacing and fundamentals. The man just goes and esam smashed him for it as he should have. There were so many times he had pika in solid option selet scenarios and trap situations and he would do random stupid stuff like run up sh nair through an air dodging pika not even bothering to di back to maintain spacing.

Don't just look at results of tournies. Look at the matches and analyze them. When u look at those matches do you think those chars are played to their full or near full potential with intelligence and smart usage of their options? If not then the match is disregarded. Does it seem both players know the match? No? Then the math is disregarded. Leon has very little pika practice for example. So should those matches be seen as legit?

The answers are obvious and logical.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

And also very subjective.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think my main point of esam trashing a lot of Marths because of their own errors is in fact an objective point based purely on observation. Look at his matches vs the majority of Marths he fights.

They make a lot of poor choices. mike haze made good ones till he got very risky. Talkin bout mlg for mike. Idk bout his match with ramin though I heard he played well.

How can you use bad matches like Leon vs esam if Leon ignores wut his char is supposed to do and plays extremely unsafe and risky despite being punished for it consistently?

 

[Ayce God]

Ok but look at the matches vs the Marths. I have seen a lot of esam vs Marths and while esam almost always plays amazingly well I cannot say the same for the Marths.

Take Leon for example. Never in my life have I seen such blatant disregard for spacing and fundamentals. The man just goes and esam smashed him for it as he should have. There were so many times he had pika in solid option selet scenarios and trap situations and he would do random stupid stuff like run up sh nair through an air dodging pika not even bothering to di back to maintain spacing.

Don't just look at results of tournies. Look at the matches and analyze them. When u look at those matches do you think those chars are played to their full or near full potential with intelligence and smart usage of their options? If not then the match is disregarded. Does it seem both players know the match? No? Then the math is disregarded. Leon has very little pika practice for example. So should those matches be seen as legit?

The answers are obvious and logical.

like this is genius, some of you are just saying dumb stuff or saying marth isnt a good character bc you have no success with him. ill stop arguing the fact bc its pointless, one person wins vs a few marth and its even? the logic is ********.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEe-bS4_wig look at the options esam uses, look at the CLEAR inexperience ramin has. look how the ONLY way he can kill ramin is exploiting the fact ramin doesnt know how to di most of pikachus attacks. the match up is even bc ramin cant di thunder?? no esam just out played him. THATS ALL. if you can honestly look at this entire match and say its still even then cool. im cool with that.

 

[| Big D |]

-2
-2
-3
-3

The numbers system can be done well, but there is still quite large gap in difficulty within the same ratios.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

like this is genius, some of you are just saying dumb stuff or saying marth isnt a good character bc you have no success with him. ill stop arguing the fact bc its pointless, one person wins vs a few marth and its even? the logic is ********.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEe-bS4_wig look at the options esam uses, look at the CLEAR inexperience ramin has. look how the ONLY way he can kill ramin is exploiting the fact ramin doesnt know how to di most of pikachus attacks. the match up is even bc ramin cant di thunder?? no esam just out played him. THATS ALL. if you can honestly look at this entire match and say its still even then cool. im cool with that.

Don't try and base a MU off of a single match, pal.
When it comes down to the nitty-gritty, like this match-up has, it is time to jus accept the opinions of the people who actually play the game at top level over your own, for lack of a better match-up determination.

 

[Ayce God]

im not going off one match, pal. and its only esam that believes its even the rest of you are just riding the esams right bandwagon. not even giving reasons why you think it even. its pointless talking with someone with your lack of intelligence on the matter. call me when esam chimes in.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh, ouch.
No one is posting "reasons" because baseless theorycraft is stupid. This is something you'll learn later on, if you stick around.

 

[Atomsk_92]

Just shield vs ZSS. Also hype at homestuck avy^

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm trying to entice fellow SWF Homestucks to talk to me, so I'm glad it's working

 

[NickRiddle]

The only thing that sucks about Homestuck... is what it's done to anime conventions.
Homestuck Con: feat. anime

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The only hope is for an amazing, easy-to-cosplay anime to come out.

Spoiler

Death Note

 

[Emblem Lord]

Saying sumone is being outplayed based n clear observation and evidence is not theory. It just mean I'm not blind. also jiggs is useless garbage that has no effect on the metagame.

Wanna know when I will take these vids more seriously? When I stop seeing Marths doing run up dancing blade on shielding opponents and when I stop seeing them full hop fair on grounded opponents.

Nonsense gameplay should be disregarded. Ramin did way better then other Marths though after watching his vids.

 

[Orion*]

I don't remember if you were active back then, but this used to be THE #1 THING people said about ZSS until like late 2010, and in NY/NJ still is, even with Salem doing well.

I remember when Ally played Nick Riddle at MLG, I think NickRiddle won the first set and then Ally won the second set. Reportedly Atomsk said something to Ally like "oh you can just shield everything and win" which everyone swore lead to him winning the set. This was in 2010, this is still a very very prevalent line of thought in some regions.

Orion/Thiocyanide and I used to have like flame wars over this. Then we got some good frame data, Salem's Concentrate videos came out and I think this viewpoint died for the most part.

Oversimplifying it, but shield is still broken vs her. If you sit in your shield you will get *****, although I think that's something that was as easy to take advantage of until like 2011. Shield still beats or resets to neutral vs a huge majority of her options.

 

[Jimmy?]

For whoever it was that said ESAM only beats Marths by exploiting their match up inexperience.... um, how do you know that? If someone doesn't know the match up and you exploit that, it doesn't mean you couldn't otherwise win.

So your objective facts, which amount to "ESAM knows how to play against Marth," don't really prove your point. You're just throwing an internet tantrum about a game for children. ._.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Saying sumone is being outplayed based n clear observation and evidence is not theory. It just mean I'm not blind. also jiggs is useless garbage that has no effect on the metagame.

Wanna know when I will take these vids more seriously? When I stop seeing Marths doing run up dancing blade on shielding opponents and when I stop seeing them full hop fair on grounded opponents.

Nonsense gameplay should be disregarded. Ramin did way better then other Marths though after watching his vids.

Seeing as lots of people disagree with you, it isn't a 'clear observation' at all; hence, the discussion would devolve into theory-craft.

Not even sure what Puff has to do with anything.

 

[_Kain_]

Seeing as lots of people disagree with you, it isn't a 'clear observation' at all; hence, the discussion would devolve into theory-craft.

Not even sure what Puff has to do with anything.

Lots of people also agree.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm not trying to say his opinion is stupid or anything, lots of people do agree and with good reason.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

For whoever it was that said ESAM only beats Marths by exploiting their match up inexperience.... um, how do you know that? If someone doesn't know the match up and you exploit that, it doesn't mean you couldn't otherwise win.

So your objective facts, which amount to "ESAM knows how to play against Marth," don't really prove your point. You're just throwing an internet tantrum about a game for children. ._.

This post is actually kind of a grand slam LOL

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Oversimplifying it, but shield is still broken vs her. If you sit in your shield you will get *****, although I think that's something that was as easy to take advantage of until like 2011. Shield still beats or resets to neutral vs a huge majority of her options.

Yeah I touched on this a few pages ago, but ZSS' biggest weakness is probably that you can't just run up and hit someone's shield with anything. She also doesn't have like Falco lasers and jabs, Snake's close-range shield stun, MK's 6 jumps and fast aerials, Marth fair, bananas, etc. All these good shield pressure tools are what make top characters so safe.

Like, bair is safe on shield but her shorthop is too weird to use it neutrally. Dsmash is safe on shield but all that does is prevent people from running up to you and shieldgrabbing you if you charge it. That's strong (ZSS is really good at stopping approaches between uair fair and dsmash, like if you watch Will vs Salem he just tries to hit her over and over again and gets owned for it) but it doesn't like, a safe ground approach.

I think the most optimal way to deal with that as a ZSS player is to bait with what looks like an easy approach, which is where things start to get hazy. Like, one could argue that an experienced player will know when ZSS is baiting and just not take the bait. But it isn't that simple, ZSS' mix-ups are close to human reaction time. I can foxtrot forward, back, and reverse paralyzer. If you pulse your shield neutral B hits you and if hold it, it takes damage (plus knowing whether or not she'll charge it). If you hold it, I dash to a good spacing and wait, or charge dsmash.

So yes, on paper, hitting shield when ZSS does something is very strong, it can be pretty hard to know when she's going to do something. That's the essence of the ZSS style we're seeing happen. Yeah, you get ***** against ZSS if you just hold your shield, so you want to pulse it when you're going to be hit, but if you're not going to be hit, you're suddenly holding your shield or not shielding, which is pretty bad.

I didn't mean to make this about ZSS (it happens!) but more about how a few characters in Brawl, notably Pikachu, ZSS, Fox and to an extent MK have **** that is difficult to deal with because of mobility and unpredictability and for no other reason. That's why ZSS, Fox, and Pikachu are always going to do relatively well no matter how bad the forums say they are.

 

[Ayce God]

For whoever it was that said ESAM only beats Marths by exploiting their match up inexperience.... um, how do you know that? If someone doesn't know the match up and you exploit that, it doesn't mean you couldn't otherwise win.

So your objective facts, which amount to "ESAM knows how to play against Marth," don't really prove your point. You're just throwing an internet tantrum about a game for children. ._.

yea, bc ya know expressing ones opinion without shouting or cussing is clearly throwing a tantrum. k gotcha

and that doesn't make sense. "just bc esam chooses to out play his opponent doesn't mean he couldn't win another way."

df is that? when esam starts using these "tools" to win instead of out playing his opponents then I'll agree with pikachu = marth until then it's ESAM > marth.

sorry for the tantrum

 

[Grim Tuesday]

im not going off one match, pal. and its only esam that believes its even the rest of you are just riding the esams right bandwagon. not even giving reasons why you think it even. its pointless talking with someone with your lack of intelligence on the matter. call me when esam chimes in.

This was a bit of a tantrum, mate.

 

[Ayce God]

uh not really....well.....eh....hmph.
i imagined you saying that in a australian accent
it made me smile

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I have edited my post to better reflect your imagined version of me.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I have edited my post to better reflect your imagined version of me.

Kangaroo cooktop blimey mate australia

 

[Ayce God]

I have edited my post to better reflect your imagined version of me.

you have no idea what adding one word will do to a sentence.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Just shield vs ZSS.

Just plank vs. Atomsk

 

[infiniteV115]

You could just space a sideB on their shield and stay safe you know... XD

I've always felt that ZSS can shield pressure at least decently with sideB+bair

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That's because you are a ZSS main and don't know how good it feels to have

A REAL MANs

shield presha

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Not very many characters in this game have good shield pressure tbh, it's like... the high tiers (MK, Snake, Falco, Diddy, Marth.. maybe a few others) and Peach. lol

Most other characters have shield pressure that's like, iffy and unreliable at best for any number of reasons.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Puff's is pretty good imo, just because of cross-up dair

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Puff's is pretty good imo, just because of cross-up dair

I can utilt it! ... I think.

 

[Cassio]

lol, Emblem Lord pushing an 'objective' point of view just like every other person in the community. The term you should be searching for is 'current metagame'.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Puff's is pretty good imo, just because of cross-up dair

Most bad characters have at least one good move, but that still doesnt mean that theyre good. For example, Samus has zair and Bowser has klaw, both great moves, but since the rest of their kit falls short or cant take full advantage of these great moves, they still end up being complete garbage characters despite both having a fantastic move, just like puff, only shes even worse than the other 2 i just mentioned.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

tbh puff is better than both of them it's just no one abuses how gay she can play. at top level i would put her with mario and lucas. especially if she is allowed to do her sleep infinite on the ledge (which i allow at my tournament). if you have a timer in your ruleset you have to accept that timing out and stalling is an in game strategy and puff can do that to people. you just don't ever see puffs anymore. mink = zss and dapuffster = diddy (not sure bout dapuffster but thats wat i heard). do any other jiggs mains that are good exist?

 

[Z'zgashi]

I cant see any way that Puff could be better than Samus. Bowser... maybe, but I REALLY dont think shes on his level either. The only thing Puff can really do is run away with a lead, which is stupid hard to get to begin with seeing as she has abysmal range and isnt very safe. Plus, if she DOES get the lead and gets caught off a simple mistake, she dies really early and has a VERY hard time killing. Her only kill move that really kills at a good percentage is Rest, which if she misses is basically a free stock on her. Its MASSIVE risk, decent reward. Sure, she can camp away a lead, but she cant get a lead reliably. As for Samus, sure she has a killing problem as well, but at least she has that amazing poke with zair that can apply pressure and damage insanely safely, and also has options to projectile camp well. And with Bowser, at least he has insane weight keeping him alive and has the ability to punish hard on a read, along with that command grab that does 19%. Samus can pressure well, Bowser can punish hard, and both survive long as well, Jiggs can only run away and dies stupidly early, not seeing how shes better than the other two at all.

And Puffster mains Jiggs as well as Mink plays a ton of Jiggs. There are also a few other random Jiggs players but most just use her for fun or arent that amazing.

 

[SoulPech]

Puff's is pretty good imo, just because of cross-up dair

She's still bad compared to Melee, but she shouldn't be as low as she is in Brawl I feel her best moves are Pound, dair, Dash Attack, and bair. Pound chunks away half of someone's shield (Except Diddy >.>), Dair is easy to follow up in a grab, Dash Attack has high priority and is a late kill move (>100 %) and bair when it's staled is great at walling out characters and can go into a string of hits.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imo Jiggs is fine where she is now and the more you play Jiggs the more you'll realize it. Shes a bad character, in fact a very bad character. I do enjoy her and think her mobility is fun to play around with, but I cant deny that she just isnt good at all. I think at mid level, her mobility and trickiness allows her to accel a bit more, but at a top level, Jiggs just lack SO MUCH. At best, I think she could possibly pass Falcon, but I think theres a solid bottom 5 (Falcon, Puff, Link, Zelda, Ganon in no specific order), a bit of a gap, and then Bowser, Samus, Mario, etc.

 

[SoulPech]

Imo Jiggs is fine where she is now and the more you play Jiggs the more you'll realize it. Shes a bad character, in fact a very bad character. At best, I think she could pass Falcon, but I think theres a solid bottom 5 (Falcon, Puff, Link, Zelda, Ganon in no specific order), a bit of a gap, and then Bowser, Samus, Mario, etc.

She's...all I use though. I've been using Jiggs since 64 -________-

 

[Z'zgashi]

By more I meant the better you get at the game. The closer you get to that Top Level of skill, the more you'll notice her flaws.