Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Ussi]

He probably meant not dying early to MK shenanigans.

ESAM didn't die early anyways, MK has an easier time landing kill moves than Pikachu so Pika should die first anyways.

 

[infiniteV115]

Pikachu lives longer (ie he lives to higher percents) than MK does. Higher weight, and better momentum cancelling due to better fastfall and his sideB.

 

[Luigi player]

They both did do pretty well against him, but ESAM said it on stream after facing Anti and before facing Nairo. So when he said it, it had nothing to do with Nairo.


Anti did a lot better than Nairo did against ESAM's Pikachu too, he really knows the MU. ESAM switched to ICs for games 2+3 and won the set, but game 1 (:) he was beaten pretty bad iirc.

You shouldn't base anything off of one match...

 

[Luco]

You shouldn't base anything off of one match...

That's true but ESAM went up against a few MKs in top 8. I saw almost every match in top 8 + the one below it so I can understand what he means. Still... In any case, the upB madness he did on Nairo in like the second or third game was insane, so I wouldn't discount Pikachu yet.

 

[Ussi]

Pikachu lives longer (ie he lives to higher percents) than MK does. Higher weight, and better momentum cancelling due to better fastfall and his sideB.

%wise Pika lives longer, but in the MU MK damages Pika easier and lands kill moves easier.. So Pika dies first in the MU over Mk as Mk gets Pika to kill % sooner than the otherway around

 

[Cassio]

Landing kill moves when the opponent is in neutral is never really a viable option. Yeah it can be easy to PS pikas ground moveset, but placing him in low-option situations isnt an easy task. A lot of times its a result of pika putting himself at risk to land a hit.

Watching the match now its kind of weird, its almost as if ESAM's never fought a top level MK who knows how to properly edge/ledgeguard pika because the options he chose were rather terrible, like he was just expecting to get away with BS. Then again he was trying to tell me that skull bash was a reliable recovery option against MK only a couple weeks ago...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Then again he was trying to tell me that skull bash was a reliable recovery option against MK only a couple weeks ago...

I giggled a little bit.
Jason used to have some funny ideas too.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Used to? lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

Used to? lol

I was trying to be nice...

 

[Ussi]

Landing kill moves when the opponent is in neutral is never really a viable option. Yeah it can be easy to PS pikas ground moveset, but placing him in low-option situations isnt an easy task. A lot of times its a result of pika putting himself at risk to land

MK's fsmash is safe...

 

[Luco]

MK's fsmash is safe...

o.O

I always thought Fsmash was a nono with MK unless in very particular situations. The usual standard MK smashes I see are Dsmashes.

Guess that's me though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fsmash is way less punishable than Dsmash after the damaging frames; has higher knockback and a different hitbox position.

Definitely a solid move.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Its just the start up thats bad.

Honestly it bugs me. His only slow move, and its almost completely safe on block and functions as a great kill move to boot. Wheres bowsers safe f-smash maaaaan?

 

[Z'zgashi]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Bowser's fsmash NEEDS to be safe next smash.

 

[Ussi]

MK's fsmash is -12 on block and pushes you away so move quick moves can't punish it anyways unless Mk didn't space it lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Olimar can grab it, can't he?

BROKEN

 

[Exceladon City]

Olimar can grab it, can't he?

BROKEN

Nope. Olimar's grab is 11 frames. Fsmash is completely safe on Olimar's shield.

 

[infiniteV115]

MK's fsmash is -12 on block and pushes you away so move quick moves can't punish it anyways unless Mk didn't space it lol

Nope. Olimar's grab is 11 frames. Fsmash is completely safe on Olimar's shield.

One of you is wrong.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

EDIT: Nevermind, it's late and I'm reading things wrong.

 

[Ussi]

The question is does the pikmin reach MK by 13 frames, as 11 is just the start of the grab hitbox. (Olimar's entire grab frames is like 12 frames)

 

[Cassio]

MK's fsmash is safe...

Pikachu's fsmash outranges it, its not too hard to deal with. You can also punish it with jolt and QA dependant on the situation, but fsmashing him back is the best thing.

I've been the biggest advocate lately of punishing whiffed attempts to outspace pika with fsmash vs dashing in since fsmash outranges almost everything. It wrecks snakes tilts and Ikes jabs/aerials.

Heres some stuff I wrote about on it a few months ago.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14438681#post14438681

 

[Seagull Joe]

Pikachu's fsmash outranges it, its not too hard to deal with. You can also punish it with jolt and QA dependant on the situation, but fsmashing him back is the best thing.

I've been the biggest advocate lately of punishing whiffed attempts to outspace pika with fsmash vs dashing in since fsmash outranges almost everything. It wrecks snakes tilts and Ikes jabs/aerials.

Heres some stuff I wrote about on it a few months ago.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14438681#post14438681

Is the only character who is good at punishing 's Fsmash super consistently? Everytime it whiffs are shield that is a free Fsmash from . 's punish moves against are pretty strong and his aren't by comparison. He has problems killing if he doesn't get the cg. just has that dumb cg tis all. Matchup still should be -2 because it's not unwinnable and we have options on certain stages outside of Fd.... we have almost no safe stage choices outside of Brinstar, which isn't legal and Battlefield.

In regards to 's Fsmash being safe on block, I don't think you're taking people with fast dash grabs into account (Like ).

 

[Cassio]

LOL, screw wolf. I tried doing this to him when I'd just started testing this out and it backfired big time. The issue isnt even that he can punish it on shield since most ppl can, its that he outright outranges it with his own fsmash.

Fsmash is definitely not safe on block and as I sorta mentioned in that post shouldnt be used as a spacing tool so much as a counter spacing tool. I came up with it when I was discovering counter-strategies to peach. Specifically for situations like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp1lWe_7fmA#t=06m52s
and then started applying it to other MUs.

The idea is something like this, if an opponent is reacting to approaches using a spacing move like a jab or tilts (many aerials too since fsmash reaches high), you want to bait or read the commitment and punish it. Eventually the opponent will stop reacting or being baited into those situations, but thats generally the idea. You want to make Ike second guess tossing out that jab, or have MK second guess tossing out that tilt on reaction. It actually makes snakes tilts completely unviable in the MU unless the pika really screws up.

Regarding MKs fsmash, the only time it should be hitting pika is from a spot dodge read.

 

[Ussi]

ESAM got hit by fsmash as he would run in on Anti/Nairo. Its the fact its safe on shield is what let them continously pressure ESAM's shield with fsmash, trying to bait a roll/spot dodge, without Mk getting punished for taking the low-risk/high reward move.

Also Ike's jab2 deals with people trying to outspace jab1, if you stay out of jab2 range then i'm questioning why the Ike jabbed on the first place.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

MK's fsmash is safe...

F-smash should rarely be hitting Pika especially since he has such a great projectile to counter it.

 

[Judo777]

F-smash should rarely be hitting Pika especially since he has such a great projectile to counter it.

He has an ALRIGHT projectile to counter it. And who cares if the projectile hits MK for it. His fsmash is punishable by Sheik hardcore, doesn't make it not a huge problem still. Sheik can needle it, DA it (if you are perfect), and DACUS it (if you are perfect practically on the level of an extremely hard read of when he will release) but who cares, His risk reward on that move is preposterous. You might catch him with TJolt 11 out of 12 times but the one time you get hit more than makes up for it. Because when you get hit by it you are losing a stock if the MK isn' using it at the wrong times.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

He has an ALRIGHT projectile to counter it. And who cares if the projectile hits MK for it. His fsmash is punishable by Sheik hardcore, doesn't make it not a huge problem still. Sheik can needle it, DA it (if you are perfect), and DACUS it (if you are perfect practically on the level of an extremely hard read of when he will release) but who cares, His risk reward on that move is preposterous. You might catch him with TJolt 11 out of 12 times but the one time you get hit more than makes up for it. Because when you get hit by it you are losing a stock if the MK isn' using it at the wrong times.

My point is that it's not really safe, especially in this match up. Also, very few characters have the option of punishing a grounded move with an aerial projectile so I'd say it's better than ALRIGHT

 

[Cassio]

ESAM got hit by fsmash as he would run in on Anti/Nairo. Its the fact its safe on shield is what let them continously pressure ESAM's shield with fsmash, trying to bait a roll/spot dodge, without Mk getting punished for taking the low-risk/high reward move.

Also Ike's jab2 deals with people trying to outspace jab1, if you stay out of jab2 range then i'm questioning why the Ike jabbed on the first place.

Watch the video I linked you to. He was falling for the same thing over a year ago against different character. Consider the difference a charged stutter stepped fsmash wouldve had instead of dashing into an attack. The same applies to Metaknights fsmash, and Ikes jab when intended to cover being punished by a dash in grab/attack (tons of characters jab on whiffs in leui of shielding/spot dodging. Heres an example of what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4PSfJ6gpq4#t=06m43s).

He has an ALRIGHT projectile to counter it. And who cares if the projectile hits MK for it. His fsmash is punishable by Sheik hardcore, doesn't make it not a huge problem still. Sheik can needle it, DA it (if you are perfect), and DACUS it (if you are perfect practically on the level of an extremely hard read of when he will release) but who cares, His risk reward on that move is preposterous. You might catch him with TJolt 11 out of 12 times but the one time you get hit more than makes up for it. Because when you get hit by it you are losing a stock if the MK isn' using it at the wrong times.

If a move is frequently punishable how is its risk rewards preposterous? That could be said about virtually every move in the game.

 

[Delta-cod]

Even if he's getting punished, the punish isn't strong at all, so the risk of using the move is near moot.

As an extreme example, imagine if Jiggs could consistently punish MK's Fsmash with her jab. She did so 11 out of 12 times. The risk/reward for MK's Fsmash in that situation is still ridiculous because, of the 12 times, he got hit with a "Who the **** cares?" move 11 times and killed Jiggs once.

 

[Cassio]

I dont agree with the example. I cant think of a move that would be punished 11 out of 12 where the 12th time wouldnt be a screw up by the opposing player.

The reason fsmash is great is because most characters cant reliably punish it.

 

[infiniteV115]

What is the frame disadvantage on fsmash on shield?

Cause if it's only safe because of the push, couldn't you just SSDI it into a grab?

 

[C.J.]

*points upwards

-12

 

[infiniteV115]

Funny that I brought up SSDI for this, because the video that taught me about SSDI actually used MK's fsmash as an example XD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRZeUndPaX4

 

[Grim Tuesday]

11 out of 12 is an odd ratio lol

 

[Judo777]

Watch the video I linked you to. He was falling for the same thing over a year ago against different character. Consider the difference a charged stutter stepped fsmash wouldve had instead of dashing into an attack. The same applies to Metaknights fsmash, and Ikes jab when intended to cover being punished by a dash in grab/attack (tons of characters jab on whiffs in leui of shielding/spot dodging. Heres an example of what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4PSfJ6gpq4#t=06m43s).


If a move is frequently punishable how is its risk rewards preposterous? That could be said about virtually every move in the game.

Because you cant punish it with anything worthwhile? If I do a 25/75 setup which means you have 3 out of 4 chance of being right, and when you are right you deal 5% but on the 1 out 4 that you are wrong you take 60%...... it very worthwhile despite the fact that it is frequently punishable.

This is not an example of MK's fsmash but it answers your question. MK's fsmash is most useful when ur on the ledge or after dthrowsm or situations where you dont have alot of space. He might mess up and take a hit but its much more devastating the few times you get hit.

Ike is a character who build a large part of his game on this principle.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Any character with a decent projectile can punish F-smash without ever putting themselves in danger.

 

[-LzR-]

Yes and MK is just gonna stand there and throw Fsmashes against characters with projectiles?

 

[Alphicans]

Any character with a decent projectile can punish F-smash without ever putting themselves in danger.

Wow this kid is a genius

 

[Luco]

Because you cant punish it with anything worthwhile? If I do a 25/75 setup which means you have 3 out of 4 chance of being right, and when you are right you deal 5% but on the 1 out 4 that you are wrong you take 60%...... it very worthwhile despite the fact that it is frequently punishable.

This is not an example of MK's fsmash but it answers your question. MK's fsmash is most useful when ur on the ledge or after dthrowsm or situations where you dont have alot of space. He might mess up and take a hit but its much more devastating the few times you get hit.

Ike is a character who build a large part of his game on this principle.

That doesn't really apply to some characters... Lucas' Usmash is very rarely a good option to use unless the person really isn't expecting it.

Then again Lucas has other kill moves that are much faster, like the bat.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Yes and MK is just gonna stand there and throw Fsmashes against characters with projectiles?

That's what Judo seems to be arguing