Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think people look at stuff like infinite and locks the wrong way, in general. For a lot of you, this is choir preaching kind of stuff, but I want to say it anyway: an infinite isn't a non-factor just because it's avoidable. Infinites are great if they're easy to land but still scary if they're not. For example, in Fox vs. ZSS, Fox can pretty easily avoid a pre-40% dsmash, but by doing so, he's making himself a little less bursty and more predictable.

The same is really true of Falco vs. Pikachu and any other similar match-up. It's true that Falco has tools to avoid being grabbed, but at what tactical cost? Pikachu controls the flow of the match for a large portion of every stock. That's not an insignificant problem for Falco, lasers or not.

To me, a lock or infinite changes a match-up pretty much always unless it's something like this and I don't really like statements like "that lock is easily avoided" without some kind of acknowledgement as to the tactical cost of avoiding it.

Dill and I argue a lot about whether or not the ZSS infinite on ROB is match-up changing a lot. I argue he has to play to avoid it (and also play to avoid low percent grabs which combo to footstool) and he argues that ROB plays the entire match-up in such a way that he wouldn't be dsmashed anyway. This is a good way to approach discussions about CGs and such.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I highly disagree that has fewer options then at a neutral position. 's approach options are fewer and he doesn't frame trap even close to as well. He only has a projectile, which fails in comparison to the godlike move that is Mach Tornado.

 

[Cassio]

I wouldnt say pika has more options in general, like Seagull said he doesnt have the same frame trapping ability. But in the specific MU its roughly even thanks to MKs transcendent priority.

Vs Falco, there arent really any pikas that know the MU well enough. I was one of the biggest proponents of moving it from -3 to -2, but I think it stays there solidly once pika's familiar with Falco. Fair can cause some havok on his moveset. The big issue, like Kyokoro said, is even if we land the chaingrab Falco is able to wrack up damage incredibly quickly himself if he isnt killed.

However in the last month a 0-death was actually discovered out of the chaingrab, so that might change things a bit, but I think a strong -2 is alright.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Anyway, Pikachu is a very mobile character with even more options at neutral than MK.

.

Nope.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's -2 at worst, no doubt. Pika can't kill and is going to have some trouble breaking through Falco's close-range game

Pikachu having more neutral options than MK is hilarious

 

[Shaya]

Having a good spot dodge is a pretty great neutral option.

 

[bubbaking]

I cannot see it being anywhere close to a -2/-3.
Maybe before when people were initially shocked at Pika's grab shenanigans, but not now, not with Falco's tools.
Or am I thinking another match up?

I can understand Pika:Fox, but if Pika:Wolf is a -3, I'm inclined to believe that, at best, Pika:Falco is a -2. Even though Falco arguably has a much better camping game, Wolf is just better at keep-away spacing than Falco is. A good example is the ICs, whom Wolf goes even with but Fox and Falco are thrashed by. If Wolf gets bodied by Pika (-3) due to CGs that he can't avoid, I'd want to say that Falco does too, maybe just little less hard (-2).

Spoiler

Testing.

Spoiler

You're doing it wrong.

Anyway, I don't use any of the two characters.... I just didn't want to make an "empty" post.

<______<

 

[infiniteV115]

I believe the CG is also harder on Wolf because it requires more specific %s and pummels and whatnot due to his ability to shine out.
Though on the flipside, it's easier to get the QAC lock --> jab lock --> thunder on Wolf because Pikachu doesn't need to uair him; he can simply dthrow --> footstool at certain %s.

But I do agree with what Bubba is saying. It seems like Wolf would do better against Pikachu than the other two spacies, and...well...McPeePants IS the only spacie that has beaten ESAM (to my knowledge)

 

[ぱみゅ]

The Chaingrab lasts longer on Wolf than Falco (I think it's a 0-to-death?).
And it will be changed to -2 anyway.

 

[Cassio]

McP won a single match that most agree was played sloppy on both sides.

Also I just mentioned that they discovered a way to 0-death falco. Regardless, Falco is harder than Wolf except probably on Smashville.

 

[bubbaking]

The Chaingrab lasts longer on Wolf than Falco (I think it's a 0-to-death?).
And it will be changed to -2 anyway.

Lolz, did you miss the part where V115 said that it requires more specific %'s and pummels and whatnot?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Harder =/= unviable/impossible/untranscendent, unless it's "ridiculously harder", like DDD's pivot regrab.
Pikachu's is harder to learn, and Wolf might be able to mash out of the pummels, but it's still a very important part of the MU.
Plus Falco racks damage up better, and has more kill options plus a Dair techchase. Wolf can Blaster and Bair and camp until the timer runs out.

 

[bubbaking]

No one said that "harder" means those things and no one said that the CG isn't an important part of the Pika:Wolf MU. I really don't think Falco can even kill that well. His kill set-ups are easy to see coming (and avoid).

 

[Seagull Joe]

vs is a -2 and is being changed in Matchup Chart 3.0 since all parties agreed this time around.

's cg involves needing a Fthrow or Pummel after 4 Dthrows at 0. This can be confusing for if he has already damaged with another move making him not at 0. The cg ends around 110 where can shine out. should never die unless he gets Footstool>QAC>Thunder'd/Fsmash'd at the edge of the stage. I've never been 0 to deathed by and I've played all of them lmao.

Esam is going to be staying at my house today. We'll play more and solidify matchup claims. Esam also wants to play me to never lose to a again .

I think vs is "Just as bad" according to the ratios given. vs is definitely a better matchup then vs , but to say either of them are -3's or -1's is just incorrect. Hence why I dislike using these exact descriptions for matchup.

In reality, vs is probably 35-65 and vs is 30-70. Both -2's, but obviously there can be discrepencies for EXACT ratios. definitely does better on . probably does better on

 

[ぱみゅ]

And you somehow managed to make your posts even more unreadable.

 

[Yobolight]

Eh I like Seagull's post style.

 

[Seagull Joe]

And you somehow managed to make your posts even more unreadable.

If anything, I made it more simplified with stage pictures. Gonna start posting stages now too. This new Swf made it easier to locate and post em. Godlike.

Eh I like Seagull's post style.

Thanks babe.

 

[pidgezero_one]

i can't wait till they bring back all the tiny icons and not just like random-ass sections of the character roster

inline icons = best

 

[Luco]

Yeah, i'm waiting for those last few ones to be done as well. Seeing and then is weird.

I also enjoy seagull's style, if not for the fact that it means more effort was put in to it to make it more friendly for the eyes (Gigantic walls of text can be little much for me unless i'm incredibly interested ha).

Also, 0 to death on falco from pika? This sounds like something pretty interesting, are there any vids? Would anyone care to try this out? ^_^

 

[bubbaking]

There's no need for us to "try this out" (to confirm it) unless you just want to do it for fun. Apparently, all the good Pika players know about it, so it must work. Also, I don't think it's necessarily harder for Seagull to put icons in. You just.....click on them, lolz.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I don't click them. I type them.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Yeah, i'm waiting for those last few ones to be done as well. Seeing and then is weird.

I also enjoy seagull's style, if not for the fact that it means more effort was put in to it to make it more friendly for the eyes (Gigantic walls of text can be little much for me unless i'm incredibly interested ha).

Also, 0 to death on falco from pika? This sounds like something pretty interesting, are there any vids? Would anyone care to try this out? ^_^

Buffer D-Throw CG -> Sh Uair -> Foot stool -> Quick attack lock once -> Charged Fsmash.

Boom!

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Buffer D-Throw CG -> Sh Uair -> Foot stool -> Quick attack lock once -> Charged Fsmash.

Boom!

Welp, guess I'm gonna stop arguing for a -1

 

[infiniteV115]

Oh cause an easy 0-(100-105) --> usmash is not enough to make it worse than -1 but a 0-death that is significantly harder to do and can be SDI'd to avoid the footstool (probably?) pushes it over the limit.

Right

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Oh cause an easy 0-(100-105) --> usmash is not enough to make it worse than -1 but a 0-death that is significantly harder to do and can be SDI'd to avoid the footstool (probably?) pushes it over the limit.

Right

With smart play it's not impossible to come back from the 100-105 and make it even again, while not having to worry about the grab because the CG is gone.

The 0-death makes it impossible to come back without having to worry about the CG, which leads to another 0-death

Basically, since grab = death against both Pika and ICs I'm now going to stop arguing that Pika is easier

 

[bubbaking]

With smart play it's not impossible to come back from the 100-105 and make it even again, while not having to worry about the grab because the CG is gone.

I see what V115 was saying. There's NO way you could argue that having to make up such a huge damage deficit that resulted from one grab is -1 material. -2's aren't impossible, you know, and neither are -3's.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I see what V115 was saying. There's NO way you could argue that having to make up such a huge damage deficit that resulted from one grab is -1 material. -2's aren't impossible, you know, and neither are -3's.

I never said it was impossible to make up the deficit from a 0-death, I said it was impossible to do so without worrying about the CG killing you again, making the Pikachu MU extremely similar to the ICs MU, which I think is -2.

Not having to worry about the CG while making your way back from the 100% deficit makes the MU significantly easier, since not focusing purely on avoiding grabs allows Falco to do normal Falco stuff, and Falco's Falco stuff is even with or beats Pika's Pika stuff.

Basically, in my opinion without the CG Falco beats Pika +1, the CG to 100 makes it -1, and the CG being a 0-death makes it -2

 

[bubbaking]

Well yeah, you don't have to worry about the CG; you just have to worry about EVERY OTHER FRESH MOVE GETTING YOU KILLED! And then if you die, you have to worry about the CG again. Not much of an improvement, IMO If anything, the 0-to-death changes the MU from an easier -2 for Falco to a harder one. If "Falco's Falco stuff is even with Pika's Pika stuff" then how the heck does a free 105% equate to to a -1? Btw, even if the dthrow CG didn't work, wouldn't Pika still have the fthrow CG on him? That could be pretty bad on walk-offs and would also equate to a bit of free damage + Falco offstage for a possible easy gimp or more damage while edgeguarding on other stages. So even without the dthrow CG, the fthrow CG would keep it at least even, IMO.

Question: Does Pika's fthrow combo into stuff (other than grab) on spacees like his dthrow does?

 

[Cassio]

Fthrow combos into upsmash at low percent, but its better to just fthrow then finish with a dthrow into a follow up like nair. For the record I think there is a decent difference between a high percent chain grab and 0-death, getting kills in brawl are difficult. But I also agree that it goes from a -2 to a harder -2.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, that question was assuming that the dthrow CG didn't work, so I'd also assume that it wouldn't combo into the regular stuff (although it could possibly still combo into moves like uair, usmash, etc. while not being a CG, so what you said would probably still work). Fthrow CG > usmash sounds like a decently damaging punish, though. Btw, Shiny Mew, it's more than just a "free 100-105". You still have to consider the usmash at the end.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Btw, Shiny Mew,

It's Shiny Mewtwo tyvm.

No longer responding since you mistook my glorious green self for that bumbling blue brat.

 

[bubbaking]

Mistook? My good man, if I said "Shiny Mew", then I meant it. Your stature has diminished in my view.

Edit: Would you rather I call you 'S&M'?

Edit 2: Oh hey, the troll emote is back! (^_^)

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Well then, I guess I'll call you bubbalord then. Or maybe bubbaknight. Yes, bubbaknight has a nice ring to it, I think I'll go with that.

 

[bubbaking]

There's a guy on here who calls me Bubblequeen. No one's managed to top that one yet.

 

[infiniteV115]

I'll call him Seaking.








**** YEAH SEAKING

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I'll call him Seaking.








**** YEAH SEAKING

I'm imaging you saying that irl and...

I just can't stop laughing

 

[Luco]

Heat seaking missiles...

Nup, doesn't work.

I think CGs have been known to change ratings before. In this case, the CG is harder but i'd say a -2 is reasonable, yes?

 

[bubbaking]

CGs should always change ratings because they change the MU. Thing is that a changed rating may still have the same MU value as before (e.g. easier -2 to harder one). The difficulty, and thus the rating, are different but not enough to garner a whole new value.

 

[Luco]

Oops, fail post. Meant to post in the other thread haha. ><

 

[JTsm]

When's v3 gonna come out?