Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[infiniteV115]

When's v115 gonna come out?

 

[Luco]

When's v115 gonna come out?

Apex next.... year? o.O

New MU chart probably isn't that far off, I hear they're in the 'discussion with other panels' stage if not further by now.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah we're in that phase atm. However not all proposed MU changes are being discussed atm, they're being discussed in chunks.
eg I think the ZSS panel pushed for 7 MU changes, but right now we're only discussing 3 or 4 changes to our MUs (not all of which were proposed by us)

 

[Shaya]

ZSS wins a tournament?
+1 to every match up.

 

[infiniteV115]

u kno dats actuly a gud idea brb

 

[Luco]

I would laugh so hard if all 7 MUs suddenly became +4's for ZSS.

Also, nice try, devs, nice try.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

When's v115 gonna come out?

Whenever you're ready.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Whenever you're ready.

....Dude.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

....Dude.

He knew that was coming. He knows me too well to NOT expect that.

 

[infiniteV115]

Your post sucks.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You know you love it.

And to put this back on topic, what do you guys think about the Snake vs Falco MU?

I used to think Falco wins, but then I started using Snake and played against some Falcos and now I think the MU is even.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, the MU chart has it written down as 0...

Although, I'd be more inclined to believe that a perfectly defensive Falco actually has the advantage against Snake. An even makes enough sense, though.

Edit: Aside from the camping factor, I find that Snake shares a few features of that MU with DDD. A highly damaging grab-game, great kill move in utilt (disjoint instead of invincibility), good moves, especially tilts, for stuffing Phantasm and laying on damage, and a HUGE aversion to being grabbed. However, while Snake can counter-camp better, he can't platform camp or avoid lasers with Waddles and spot-dodge like DDD can.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Falco vs Snake is a matchup with generally few options - they cover each other pretty well. I think it's even if played well on both sides but most Snake players aren't better than decent so they rarely beat Larry / Masha / SLS / Shugo.

For Snake it's mainly about avoiding the grab at CG%, not using C4 before CG%, powershielding lasers, covering phantasm and covering Falco's recovery options. A lot depends on good reaction times on Snake's part. For Falco it's about not losing the camping battle before CG% finish, baiting openings for phantasm, juggling and covering Snake's recovery. A lot depends on technical skill and precision.

 

[Luco]

Isn't snake one of those characters that can literally just duck to avoid lasers...?

I'd check now but i've gotta go to school.

 

[ぱみゅ]

He can... but then what? Falco still can Shine, Jab and Phantasm cross-up. Heck, he can run offstage and time the lasers to travel at almost ground level.
I feel crouching limit Snake's options.

This one Matchup is what stopped me from using Snake, it's just too frustrating from both sides: both camp the hell out of each other. Falco abuses everything on Snake, who doesn't die and deals tons of damage on few hits to kill very early because, well, he is Snake...

 

[infiniteV115]

Pretty sure Shine won't hit a crouching Snake. ZSS can crawl under Falco's Shine and Snake's crouch and crawl go a lot lower than ZSS' crawl.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Also I don't buy that crouching isn't good. Doesn't crouching make powershielding really easy? Wouldn't that protect against phantasm and to a lesser extent, jab?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't see how it can make PS easier, it's still about timing lol.
The thing I have against crouching is the fact you have to hold the stick downwards, idk, I feel clumsy when trying to move too much from there.
Also my reaction time is terrible and that's the reason I stopped trying to use Snake, but that's beyond the point.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

AFAIK crouching makes the PS window wider.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Crouching kind of forces the game into a stalemate scenario. It's alright when Snake has a lead.

 

[infiniteV115]

Don't know about crouching making the PS window wider. It's just that crouching makes PSing things such as lasers easier because you PS things when they hit your shield during the first 3 frames that your shield is up. Shielding also forces you to stand, and shields come out on frame. So if you press the shield button at any time that you're crouching, you automatically stand and shield the next frame, and the laser hits your shield.

In other words, I'm pretty sure that you will only PS if the move hits your shield during the first 3 frames that it's out, it's just that crouch --> shield against lasers makes it a lot easier to get the laser to hit your shield on the first frame that your shield is up.

Not very useful in Brawl cause crouching just avoids the lasers anyway (at least, with Snake), and PSing doesn't really do much. In Melee it's useful because PSing can reflect the laser back at your opponent and hit them, so you'll see Marth players taking advantage of crouch --> PS against lasers.

 

[Dekillsage]

That's interesting lol. I would crouch so people would have to attack lower in order to hit me (when they're in the air) making powershielding easier.

example: I hit rob and he's above me and does yolo nair. I crouch so nair can't hit me and block to stand up powershield like you were saying. its pretty good for snake

 

[infiniteV115]

Good against nado too. The MK is usually aiming to hit the top of your shield with nado so that it eventually pokes. Crouching/crawling forces them to either go a lot lower than they normally would, or just not nado you at all.
If the former, you get the standing PS and now they're nadoing the middle of your shield (with about half of the nado duration with which they would normally want to eat your shield)

 

[bubbaking]

Falco vs Snake is a matchup with generally few options - they cover each other pretty well. I think it's even if played well on both sides but most Snake players aren't better than decent so they rarely beat Larry / Masha / SLS / Shugo.

Huh? There are more high/top-level Snakes than there are Falcos, aren't there? For Snake, there's Ally, Razer, and Fatal at top level, then there's Havok and MVD at that high-possibly-top level, and then there's Bizkit and a whooole bunch of high-level snakes. For Falco, we have DEHF, Masha, and Shugo at top level, then there's Kismet, Xzax, and Bloodcross at that high-possibly-top level, and then there's Keitaro and Pelca at high-level.....and that's it. The names I gave are comparable in number, but I'm sure I missed a good deal of Snakes. The same doesn't apply for Falco. I think if Snakes don't beat Falcos, then Snake loses the MU.

He can... but then what? Falco still can Shine, Jab and Phantasm cross-up. Heck, he can run offstage and time the lasers to travel at almost ground level.
I feel crouching limit Snake's options.

This one Matchup is what stopped me from using Snake, it's just too frustrating from both sides: both camp the hell out of each other. Falco abuses everything on Snake, who doesn't die and deals tons of damage on few hits to kill very early because, well, he is Snake...

Snake's dtilt is pretty good, though.....

Lolz, THIS MU stopped you from using Snake? I would think that DDD:Snake would be a much 'cheaper' MU. One CGs the other hard and blows up his recovery hard with more damage. One camps the living daylights out of the other and has stupid tilts.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It was more of a practice thing than a bad Matchup.
The local Falco never plays anything other than Falco, and while I was trying to figure out what I could do, he'd rush in and abuse everything. It was frustrating as hell.
Also, I have never played other DDD. And I am glad.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Huh? There are more high/top-level Snakes than there are Falcos, aren't there? For Snake, there's Ally, Razer, and Fatal at top level, then there's Havok and MVD at that high-possibly-top level, and then there's Bizkit and a whooole bunch of high-level snakes.

Razer quit and hardly ever played against Falco before that. Fatal / Havok / MVD are definitely not top level. They have very few or no positive records against top level players.

Masha has placed 4th / ~200 at SRT, beat M2K and Earth and has huge winning records against kakera and Brood. That's leagues beyond what those Snake players have to offer. And Masha is only considered the second best Falco in Japan, to SLS. And since Larry is nearly on Ally's level - whom at this point no other Snake can be compared to - that's a clear 3:1 for Falco in terms of player skill.

 

[ぱみゅ]

And that's ignoring the plethora of top-level Snakes in Japan.

Anyway, why is this important to know/discuss, again?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There are no top-level Snakes in japan.

Anyway, why is this important to know/discuss, again?

Because it's interesting to know how much the results in this matchup are based on player skill.

 

[bubbaking]

Razer quit and hardly ever played against Falco before that. Fatal / Havok / MVD are definitely not top level. They have very few or no positive records against top level players.

Masha has placed 4th / ~200 at SRT, beat M2K and Earth and has huge winning records against kakera and Brood. That's leagues beyond what those Snake players have to offer. And Masha is only considered the second best Falco in Japan, to SLS. And since Larry is nearly on Ally's level - whom at this point no other Snake can be compared to - that's a clear 3:1 for Falco in terms of player skill.

This may be true, but you can't assume that high-level players don't know how to play the MU, especially against a char as common as Falco. Heck, some high-level players may know certain MUs better than top-level players.

Not very useful in Brawl cause crouching just avoids the lasers anyway (at least, with Snake), and PSing doesn't really do much. In Melee it's useful because PSing can reflect the laser back at your opponent and hit them, so you'll see Marth players taking advantage of crouch --> PS against lasers.

I'm not sure how it works, but I believe PS's in Melee are also easier when one is retreating, like during a pivot/DD backwards. Not sure why this is so, though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This may be true, but you can't assume that high-level players don't know how to play the MU, especially against a char as common as Falco. Heck, some high-level players may know certain MUs better than top-level players.

Isn't that quite irrelevant for the discussion we have though?

 

[bubbaking]

Actually, it's VERY relevant. I was saying that a perfectly defensive Falco probably wins the MU +1 but practically, as it is now, it's even. Then you said that the MU is"even if played well on both sides but most Snake players aren't better than decent", which lends to the assumption that high-level Snakes can't play the MU well against top-level Falcos, and therefore, Falco wins the MU. I think high-level vs top-level can still display the MU if both sides know the MU and have good enough execution to take advantage of the bare-bones essential features of it. Where skill level starts making a difference is in 'high-end' execution consistency and certain choices, such as reads.

 

[infiniteV115]

This may be true, but you can't assume that high-level players don't know how to play the MU, especially against a char as common as Falco. Heck, some high-level players may know certain MUs better than top-level players.


I'm not sure how it works, but I believe PS's in Melee are also easier when one is retreating, like during a pivot/DD backwards. Not sure why this is so, though.

Moving in same direction as laser = keeping laser close to you for longer period of time (compared to standing still/moving in opposite direction = more likely that it will hit your shield in the first 3 frames

 

[Attila_]

to be fair, america has no top level snakes. lots of good snakes, but no one on the same level as m2k/esam. dehf is probably the only top level falco in the us. i've never seen larry play ally's snake, but i'd imagine it would be a very entertaining match. but outside that, we aren't going to see this matchup played at it's highest potential from anyone else.

There are no top-level Snakes in japan.

i love how much you changed your tune after apex. it's hilarious.

 

[infiniteV115]

Pretty sure I recall him saying essentially the exact same thing (ie Japan's Snakes are good but still nowhere near as good as Ally's) quite a few months ago. And I don't remember him saying anything to the contrary.

 

[bubbaking]

to be fair, america has no top level snakes. lots of good snakes, but no one on the same level as m2k/esam.

So Ally doesn't count? Huh.....

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah, Ally's Canadian.

 

[bubbaking]

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

America has no top level Snakes. Ally doesn't count because he's Canadian.

 

[bubbaking]

I didn't know Canada wasn't a part of North America. I guess this thread was always just a lie, then.....

Edit: Before you even think about playing coy, everyone ALWAYS factors in Canada and Mexico when talking about players in America, especially when comparing America to the rest of the world. I've never seen anyone distinguish between Canadian players and US players during those convos.

 

[infiniteV115]

When people say America, they're referring to the U.S.A (as I'm sure Attila was). When they want to refer to Canada+USA+Mexico, they say North America.
We're not playing coy, this is how people speak. Or at least, definitely me and Attila and every Canadian person I've ever met in my life. Maybe this is just a cultural difference between USA and the rest of the world.
That thread doesn't even have the word 'America' anywhere on the first page (I just CTRL-F'ed it), so idk how you're using that as a reference for anything.

Do people in the US really think of the entire continent of North America every time they hear the word "America" or "American"? Or is Bubba just being silly?

It was never America vs The World, it was USA vs The World (eg IMPULSE and Apex 2013 crew battles. Ally was on the World crew for both, because he's Canadian). When people compare regions it's always NA, Europe and Japan. Maybe you've just been listening/talking to the wrong people, or you've been misinterpreting everything. XD