Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[TheReflexWonder]

Actually, as far as blast zones are concerned, the character is treated as a specific bubble of space, no matter how their bodies are shifted. Snake/Pikachu B-Air won't help you live longer through being squishy. It's the same reason Ganondorf never wins on a Forward-B suicide, even though characters like ROB are clearly below him during the move.

 

[infiniteV115]

Huh. Good to know.
So for the character to die, their entire bubble of space has to pass the blastzone?

 

[Zankoku]

Either that or your "presence" bubble triggers a KO as soon as it collides with the blast zone wall.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I would put my money on the latter.

also note that is has to be done through momentum that is not your own.

thats why wario gets to ride his bike on the top part of the Rainbow cruise track without dying.

but at the same time, why can wario kill himself with fart?

 

[Espy Rose]

Either that or your "presence" bubble triggers a KO as soon as it collides with the blast zone wall.

I always felt like it was this one that determines the KOs.
When you get super giant, all it takes is a single limb or whatnot to touch the blastzone for your entire body to vanish.

 

[Life]

Yeah, I remember the Giant Yoshi event in Melee he would die before he was even all the way offscreen it seemed.

 

[Luco]

When you get big (as in, really big, Jigglypuff glitch big), all it takes is rolling to die. ><

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why dont we talk about how Sonic loses to Bowser

+3's Sonic all day.

 

[Dre89]

If you people talk about Bowser vs Sonic, it's better to just talk about how to play the MU. That'd be much more helpful for everyone than stating the ratio of an MU that pretty much never gets played at the top level as far as I understand.

Also, how on Earth did that MU even come up?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Dre MM me Sonic vs. Bowser

 

[bubbaking]

I would put my money on the latter.

also note that is has to be done through momentum that is not your own.

thats why wario gets to ride his bike on the top part of the Rainbow cruise track without dying.

I was always under the impression that there were two ways of dying off the top:

1. Suffering KB from a move, which includes windboxes
2. Standing on a part of the stage above the upper blastzone.

The second reason would be why Wario can ride around on the top of RC without dying. Likewise, as long as you stay in the air or cling to a wall, you can be above the top blastzone and never die. The moment you land, though, you're done. I remember John12346 would play around with this all the time during our friendlies on RC. When descending near the end of the stage's journey, he'd cling to one of the big checker blocks at the top and just stay there, upB'ing back into wall-cling when he fell off. However, if I just tapped him with anything, he'd instantly die.

but at the same time, why can wario kill himself with fart?

I think it's some weird glitch with Wario's 'fart pose'. Various mods of Brawl (Minus and I believe P:M) have removed this by causing him to enter a different pose when he farts. Like, in Minus, he looks around in his 'Looking for bike' pose instead of remaining in his 'fart pose'.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I wouldn't say it's a glitch, seems like a pretty deliberate thing to add to the game.

 

[Dre89]

Dre MM me Sonic vs. Bowser

Lol I'm happy to play your Sonic but I don't see what that'd achieve.

We're not exactly going to be a shining example of how the MU pans out at high levels.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I just felt like addressing you specifically for some reason
I want to play you in any match-up, I want to play everyone in Aus

You should be proud of Ghost and I btw, we use double Bowser in teams now

 

[Dre89]

I just felt like addressing you specifically for some reason
I want to play you in any match-up, I want to play everyone in Aus

You should be proud of Ghost and I btw, we use double Bowser in teams now

We already have played, but I'm keen to play again.

That's pretty gutsy to go double Bowser, considering he's even worse in doubles than he is in singles.

PM me when you wanna play, I can play now if you want lol.

I hate versing Sonic though, all the running away pisses me off. He must be one of those characters a lot of people hate versing. It's ironic because I find cautious defensive gameplay really fun when I'm the one doing it lol.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oooh, I don't really count wifi haha

And yeah the double Bowser is hilarious when it works.

 

[Z'zgashi]

If you people talk about Bowser vs Sonic, it's better to just talk about how to play the MU. That'd be much more helpful for everyone than stating the ratio of an MU that pretty much never gets played at the top level as far as I understand.

Also, how on Earth did that MU even come up?

I play X almost every tournament, and if I dont play him in bracket (and sometimes even if I do), I always play him in either a mm or at the least friendlies anyway. :D

And Sonic is free, that MU is easily +2/+3 Bowsers favor.

 

[Dre89]

I play X almost every tournament, and if I dont play him in bracket (and sometimes even if I do), I always play him in either a mm or at the least friendlies anyway. :D

And Sonic is free, that MU is easily +2/+3 Bowsers favor.

Ahk didn't know that. So you're a high level Bowser then?(Genuine question).

 

[Cassius.]

it's pretty safe to say that he's in the top 5.

he'll probably give a better/more detailed answer than this anyway.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I probably wouldnt consider myself HIGH level, im more like mid to high mid level.

But regardless, its probably the only instance of the MU being played frequently, and its at the highest level you can find I guess xD

EDIT: **** im tired, that took me like, 20 edits to get right loool

 

[Luco]

Well dre, from when I last saw you, obviously there was work there but you're definitely not a bad Bowser and you'd be able to clarify the MU. It's like how i'm decent-ish in terms of the Oli MU because my brother plays him all the time now. :o I'm also really eager to verse you again, i wonder if you'll go the same way invisi did (I beat him first time, he's beaten me every time since). :D

Sorry that went slightly off topic, continue Sonic vs. Bowser. >.>

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I dunno imo Sonic would have a decent amount of trouble getting past Bowser's wall of hitboxes.

It feels to me like Bowser can push Sonic to the edge pretty easily just by walking into him; fortress out of shield is incredible for obvious reasons, but it isn't his only option. Once he has got enough of a positional advantage on Sonic to force a reaction out of him, dash back > true pivot jab, dash back > true pivot up tilt, retreating SH fair > jab, etc... can cover Sonic so well.

With that said, all it takes is one good read for Sonic to get in and when he does... he gets in. Bowser has no real answer to Sonic's grab and spin mix-ups at lower %s, and no real answer to his Fsmash at higher %s (which will keep hitting him until it sets up for a bair, imo) - after Sonic has momentum, that is.

So +1 Bowser imo, but I've never played the MU. This is all theorycraft so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lol, I was just joking about +2/+3, honestly its a pretty solid even imo.

 

[Luco]

You know I honestly thought Jiggs was slightly faster than Ganon but apparently Ganon is ever so slightly faster. I was gonna say how it'd be interesting to look at the MU between the fastest character in the game and the slowest lol.

Speed here refers to ground mobility btw.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You should look at overall mobility lolz, where I believe Dedede would be the slowest.

 

[Z'zgashi]

^This.

Overall mobility (counting out specials though cuz then itd be too hard to judge), least mobile are:
Dedede > Ganon > Luigi > ICs > Ivy

Most mobile are:
Sonic > Falcon > Yoshi > Marth > Lucas

 

[Luco]

^This.

Overall mobility (counting out specials though cuz then itd be too hard to judge), least mobile are:
Dedede > Ganon > Luigi > ICs > Ivy

Most mobile are:
Sonic > Falcon > Yoshi > Marth > Lucas

If you're counting out specials, isn't Lucas only as overall mobile as Ness, seeing as you can't zap jump, wavebounce or magnet pull, anything tricksy like that?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Slight bias! maybe but I believe ZSS to be one of the most mobile characters in the game.

There are playstyles that don't take advantage of it, but it's there and very strong.

 

[Z'zgashi]

No, Lucas is faster both running and in the air. Lucas is just short of top 10 in both air speed and ground speed (which when combined makes him one of the fastest as most characters are either average in both or fast in one and slow in the other) where as Ness is average in both areas.

I also know DK is up there just short of the top 5 most mobile.

@SFP: I said I was discounting specials and such, and ZSS has terribad air speed.

 

[da K.I.D.]

and why isnt fox on that list.

also, lol @ bowser forcing a reaction from sonic.

sonic is the one that forces other characters to react. bowser is not peach or luigi or metaknight. he cant put hitboxes out fast enough for long enough to wall sonic out.

marth is pretty much the best walling spacing character in the game, and sonic breaks his spacing easily.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Cuz Fox has terrible air speed.

Sonic = #1 Ground Speed + #6 Air Speed
Falcon = #2 Ground Speed + #5 Air Speed
Yoshi = #11 Ground Speed + #1 Air Speed
Marth = #9 Ground Speed + #11 Air Speed
Lucas = #16 Ground Speed + #8 Air Speed

Fox = #3 Ground Speed buuuuut #25 Air Speed Fox is top 10 but not top 5.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Marth is definitely not the best walling character, one of his main weaknesses is that he can't protect himself properly. It's been like that since Melee.

His wall is filled with holes, unlike Meta Knight/Snake/Falco/Diddy Kong/etc...

The threat of hitboxes is much more important when it comes to walling than actual hitboxes themselves.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Btw, just mentioning that I never said anything about Bowser forcing a reaction cuz its not gonna happen often.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I dunno, air mobiltiy is only one factor in overall mobility. ZSS has the 4th best ground dash speed in the game, one of the best glide tosses, solid jump squat and jump speed (top 5 in both?), top 3-4 jump height, and probably the best possible fast fall speed, just fast enough tog et back to the ground how she'd want but slow enough to avoid stupid cgs and locks.

It's hard to watch Salem or V play and not say ZSS can be ridiculously fast and hard to hit.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Btw, just mentioning that I never said anything about Bowser forcing a reaction cuz its not gonna happen often.

Forgive me if I'm missing something here, but...

If both characters are standing still, what can Sonic do that Bowser can't punish on reaction?

On the other hand, what can Sonic do if Bowser does well... any of his usual spacing nonsense?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Dash grab

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fortress your move.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I dunno, you can say that but Sonic's dash speed is ludicrous.

A lot of his nonsense only works because he can get there so fast, not because it's safe if his opponent has negative reaction times.

I think I read that if MK dsmashes on one side of the stage sonic can dash across the stage and punish it or something ********.

That makes Sonic's match-ups a little difficult to theorycraft like that, a lot of what you can do depends on whether or not you're superhuman.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Bowser vs Sonic isnt even Bowser vs Sonic, its Bowser Player vs His own reaction speed. Plus an added rock paper scissors game at the same time.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Fortress your move.

This is dumb. With that logic, all MK needs is shuttle loop and grab. If we go by your drawing very little can be done on reaction.