Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[digiholic]

don't forget most of the popular esport games change every 3 months making the game even harder and less stale, that is to avoid the problem of people figuring out the "meta" and become less entertaining to watch.

League of Legends changes weekly. And these aren't small changes, a lot of the time the entire selection of "top tier" characters for competitive play get reduced to nigh-unplayable and the whole meta has to build from the ground up.

 

[Thinkaman]

Actually, I looked it up and (thankfully) It is officially stated that it's a frae 5 counter for what it's worth, though that may not make it worth it quite enough overall.

Hm, it does seem to be frame 5, like the default. No idea how I messed that up.

Dashing Counter is still frame 4 though.

 

[Splash Damage]

True, Dashing seems to be optimal in most matchups. So, we're thinking 2-1/2-1-3?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Call me pessimistic, but a frame-6 counter sounds uninspiring as an anti-juggle option.

Not as a combo breaker, but as an incentive to get people to back off. N-Air and D-Air are pretty awful at discouraging people, and Up-B by itself is useful but leaves very little room for error (almost no lingering hitbox below you) and leaves you completely at your opponent's mercy on a whiff. Compact Counter is barely slower than the same speed as the standard aerial start-up of 5, is active for a substantial amount of time (unlike all of his other air moves), and may very well net you KOs from an otherwise-compromising position. It's probably not the greatest tool in the world, but it seems like Mac could use something less risky and more reliable than Up-B in what is otherwise a close-to-hopeless spot.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

True, Dashing seems to be optimal in most matchups. So, we're thinking 2-1/2-1-3?

Little Mac side-3 is mostly bad but is very useful to him in a handful of match-ups (like vs Pikachu) since the armored movement is sometimes his only realistic way back to the stage. That makes situational use for all side and down variants while neutral and up seem ideally set to 2 and 1 respectively so Little Mac is more like 2X1X. His current six builds reflect this, and it seems very likely that the combinations will be rounded out some more as we move forward.

On a more immediate note, I must say I'm looking forward to @ Oracle 's stream this Friday ( http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator ). I'm curious what stuff his guys down there will be able to do with all of these moves, and I hope streams like it turn some heads in the regions that have perhaps explored the moves a bit less to see how things can go with them.

 

[19_]

Funny enough, I'd actually recommend keeping it at just 8 slots.

Its a headache otherwise for those who use their Wii U at both smaller and massive tournaments. Gotta go in and either delete slots 9+10 or add back in things to those two slots when you move between the two areas (smaller tournaments want open slots for players uploading their own movesets, big tournaments don't want that).

I agree with ditching universal 2222/3333, but might wanna leave the last two lots for that reason.

I Personally think we should go with 10 sets especially when it comes to EVO. I agree that its a pain for the wii u owner but, I believe this is the best solution that allows for as much freedom as possible. 2222, and 3333 are just a waste of slots that used for more options. This is the best short term solution however.
The long term solution is to push for a Wii U powersave. Doing this ends the issue of setup and gives us all the freedom we need.

3: Firm Custom Ruleset Discussion, and Decision.

I'm of the firm belief 2-stocks are simply bad with customs on. The game was already barely fit for 2-stock, but with the added speed and radical elements, I think 3-stock is definitely required. Especially when adaptation is more important than ever with more usable characters and sets.

But of course, the community needs to decide what they want for themselves.

I think I heard that the times for sets at evo were locked so we can't do anything there. I agree with you for the most part.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think I heard that the times for sets at evo were locked so we can't do anything there. I agree with you for the most part.

I was afraid of that, but I was talking about rules in general.

Also I'm pretty sure Datel would make a Wii U powersave if they could... They know it sells like hotcakes.

 

[Splash Damage]

I'm just as excited, thanks for the heads up.

And yeah, these moves and setuups are going to need a titanical amount of time in the lab, thanks again for taking the role of the voice of order in this situation, haha.

It seems like now all the respective groups of mains are going off and deciding which setup is the best one overall, the labs are being hit majorly.

 

[Thinkaman]

Not as a combo breaker, but as an incentive to get people to back off. N-Air and D-Air are pretty awful at discouraging people, and Up-B by itself is useful but leaves very little room for error (almost no lingering hitbox below you) and leaves you completely at your opponent's mercy on a whiff.

Mentally, I was actually comparing it more to air-dodge as the baseline anti-juggle option.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was looking from the perspective of Mac's difficulty with mounting offensive potential with other options. People are often quick to stick out an aerial at arm's length for fear of getting fastfall N-Air -> Up-B'd, so this would not only give more opportunities to land that through fear of Compact Counter -> Up-B, as well as setting up for real damage by itself if people don't respect it.

I dunno. It's worth testing. I almost never find myself using Down-B, anyway.

 

[Sodo]

"Boohoo I have to learn things" is all I hear from those people. They realize POKEMON is played at a world-class competitive level by people as young as TEN, right? Just read stuff online and practice in-game, it takes a little while but it isn't hard and it sure as heck ain't a valid justification for banning.

I'm glad you mentioned Pokemon. I recently had a discussion with someone about the legitimacy of custom moves in Smash 4. He said that it's too much to learn, that we need to define the metagame first before we go on and put everything "out of whack" as he put it. I brought up Pokemon, which he has played religiously since Gen I, and asked him what he thought of each new iteration and the new mechanics brought into the metagame. He said that they're two totally different games, which is true, but doesn't make his argument any more valid.

I'm of the personal belief that if custom moves are going to make for a healthier, more diverse metagame, then why not? As this thread has proven, there are ways to have them all unlocked on a setup. We can not only incorporate our own playstyles into our characters better, but it will force people who want to be truly competitive to understand every matchup, not just the default.

 

[Tidehunter]

Nowhere near, MD/VA. I will be going to evo though. I also have off for 2-months and have a friends house I can stay at so I could possibly arrive early and help set-up if they somehow can't find someone in the state with a powersave interested in customs.

Also, just set-up gimr and all the xanadu set-ups tonight with customs. Gimr is also borrowing one of my fully unlocked smash 3ds for him to try out stuff too. Everyone seems pretty hype in general for customs and Boss even went doc in grand finals tonight because of how much he liked custom doc. He said he'll probably main doc with customs on, and doesn't seem to be taking default too seriously any more since doc is awful without customs...

And just a thought, in the event Evo disallows people to put in their own customs.. Should we make a new list using the full 10 slots?

Was the customs event streamed? I looked on the VGBC Twitch and couldn't find it

 

[TheASDF]

Was the customs event streamed? I looked on the VGBC Twitch and couldn't find it

It hasn't happened yet.

 

[DunnoBro]

The monthlies are usually at the end of the current month.

 

[Tidehunter]

It hasn't happened yet.

Ah okay. I thought he meant the Xanadu tournament that took place last night.

 

[DunnoBro]

Ah okay. I thought he meant the Xanadu tournament that took place last night.

I think you got confused because I said "went doc cause he liked customs doc"

It was a default tournament but he'd been playing with custom doc so he was used to his movement and style, sorry for the confusion.

Xanadu hasn't had a custom tournament yet.

 

[Octagon]

I think you got confused because I said "went doc cause he liked customs doc"

It was a default tournament but he'd been playing with custom doc so he was used to his movement and style, sorry for the confusion.

Xanadu hasn't had a custom tournament yet.

Do you know when/if Xanadu will start having custom tournaments?

 

[Tidehunter]

I think you got confused because I said "went doc cause he liked customs doc"

It was a default tournament but he'd been playing with custom doc so he was used to his movement and style, sorry for the confusion.

Xanadu hasn't had a custom tournament yet.

Ah okay. Thanks for clearing up the confusion

 

[DunnoBro]

Do you know when/if Xanadu will start having custom tournaments?

The next monthly tournament will have a custom side according to Aposl.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

It's literally only laziness and fear of change lmao.

It's the time it could potentially add to a tourney. "Lazyness and fear of change" that's a really arrogant Answer

 

[Octagon]

The next monthly tournament will have a custom side according to Aposl.

Omg that's gonna be awesome to watch. Hopefully they'll stream it and put it on vgbootcamp's youtube channel

 

[DunnoBro]

Omg that's gonna be awesome to watch. Hopefully they'll stream it and put it on vgbootcamp's youtube channel

I can't imagine them not. They're well aware of the hunger the community at large has for customs and it seems like the for the most part share it.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I've been reading a lot of comments lately about how difficult will be to know each move for all characters so at the moment of a match the lack of awareness of certain move would cause them to lose the match

A while back ago Nairo made this playlist showing a sample of each character custom moves in 1 minute videos, very useful in case you want to know the options of certain characters quickly.

I suggest adding this to the original post: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHBCQLRFbEEP9K9N470s96ocjd-JOJoDo

Wait, people are really complaining that they will lose because they don't know their opponents moves? Sounds very nooby to me. So can I complain when I lose to Diddy that I don't know his moves and therefore he should be banned? I'm really confused by the arguement there. Learning what each character can do to you is step 1 in becoming good at any smash game. How is this a complaint?

Imagine the laughter and beseechment someone would get if they showed up to a Melee tournament and complained Fox was unfair because they didn't know his shine could be used as a spike. People are doing the same thing with customs. It's called get better and learn the game or don't come to tournaments. I find that excuse unbelievable.

 

[Octagon]

Wait, people are really complaining that they will lose because they don't know their opponents moves? Sounds very nooby to me. So can I complain when I lose to Diddy that I don't know his moves and therefore he should be banned? I'm really confused by the arguement there. Learning what each character can do to you is step 1 in becoming good at any smash game. How is this a complaint?

One of my friends said that was his reason for not wanting custom moves and I was just like "don't play smash bro"

 

[Raijinken]

Wait, people are really complaining that they will lose because they don't know their opponents moves? Sounds very nooby to me. So can I complain when I lose to Diddy that I don't know his moves and therefore he should be banned? I'm really confused by the arguement there. Learning what each character can do to you is step 1 in becoming good at any smash game. How is this a complaint?

Imagine the laughter and beseechment someone would get if they showed up to a Melee tournament and complained Fox was unfair because they didn't know his shine could be used as a spike. People are doing the same thing with customs. It's called get better and learn the game or don't come to tournaments. I find that excuse unbelievable.

I had no idea Final Destination was completely flat! I've been treating it like Battlefield this whole time! Ban please!

It's a slightly more valid statement to claim unfamiliarity results in poor knowledge, and that the difficulty in unlocking these makes such knowledge more difficult to obtain than, say, default custom knowledge of a character you never play (for instance, I hate Olimar's guts but at least know his defaults because CPUs can use him). That doesn't make it an unreasonable expectation, though. You've gotta do fifty events in Melee to get FD to practice on. Talk about too much effort!

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I had no idea Final Destination was completely flat! I've been treating it like Battlefield this whole time! Ban please!

It's a slightly more valid statement to claim unfamiliarity results in poor knowledge, and that the difficulty in unlocking these makes such knowledge more difficult to obtain than, say, default custom knowledge of a character you never play (for instance, I hate Olimar's guts but at least know his defaults because CPUs can use him). That doesn't make it an unreasonable expectation, though. You've gotta do fifty events in Melee to get FD to practice on. Talk about too much effort!

Hahahah, exactly. I do recognize the effort it takes in learning all the customs is far beyond anything else, but I would then extend the analogy to wave dashing and L canceling in Melee. These techniques and moves are NOT available to the average player or the CPUs. They take a LOT of time to learn. Maybe those should be banned in favor of players who don't want to spend the time.

By the way, I haven't read every post in the thread, but is it still open/dynamic/up for suggestion as to what the pre loaded custom sets are for any given character?

 

[19_]

Omg that's gonna be awesome to watch. Hopefully they'll stream it and put it on vgbootcamp's youtube channel

Ah okay. I thought he meant the Xanadu tournament that took place last night.

Tourney locator will be streaming a tournament with customs legal this Friday if you want you guys want your fix sooner.

And then Team Spooky the next week after that.

AND THEN XANADU MONTHLY AFTER THAT.



February has been and is looking pretty hype.

 

[Octagon]

Tourney locator will be streaming a tournament with customs legal this Friday if you want you guys want your fix sooner.
And then Team Spooky the next week after that.

AND THEN XANADU MONTHLY AFTER THAT.



February has been and is looking pretty hype.

All aboard the custom hype train!

 

[Protom]

Tourney locator will be streaming a tournament with customs legal this Friday if you want you guys want your fix sooner.
And then Team Spooky the next week after that.

AND THEN XANADU MONTHLY AFTER THAT.



February has been and is looking pretty hype.

Don't forget Nebulous this Sunday!!

 

[Raijinken]

Hahahah, exactly. I do recognize the effort it takes in learning all the customs is far beyond anything else, but I would then extend the analogy to wave dashing and L canceling in Melee. These techniques and moves are NOT available to the average player or the CPUs. They take a LOT of time to learn. Maybe those should be banned in favor of players who don't want to spend the time.

By the way, I haven't read every post in the thread, but is it still open/dynamic/up for suggestion as to what the pre loaded custom sets are for any given character?

It's always up for debate, and that's the best way to figure out what to preload. What we've got here is what Ampharos was able to compile from the threads initially with a revision around New Year's. An iterative process is good for this, though, but it's harder to be more frequent without high-level experimentation.

 

[Octagon]

It's always up for debate, and that's the best way to figure out what to preload. What we've got here is what Ampharos was able to compile from the threads initially with a revision around New Year's. An iterative process is good for this, though, but it's harder to be more frequent without high-level experimentation.

Definitely after high-level experimentation with custom moves we'll see if they're here to stay

 

[Aninymouse]

Just posting to once again thank AA for taking initiative and getting this project underway. I'm pretty excited to finally see this project in motion at a tournament. We might find some disappointments amongst all the excitement, but I think Smash 4 has more to gain from customs than it has to lose.

It's a shame that EVO won't reconsider the stock/time stance, but what can you do?

 

[19_]

Don't forget Nebulous this Sunday!!

Could you give me a link to where it will stream

 

[RWB]

Don't forget Nebulous this Sunday!!

Is this streamed? If so, where?

 

[19_]

@ Amazing Ampharos Are we going to have 10 slots filled now?

also CT streaming friendlies with customs!

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments

 

[John12346]

Nebulous' Smash 4 stream this Sunday is gonna be handled by NinjaLink: http://twitch.tv/ninjalink

 

[Krysco]

Yet another thread Smashboards stopped updating me on, had to play catch up from page 15 ;-;. Hoping this post fixes that although it appears just viewing the thread did.

Nice to see all of this hype for customs. So many streamed tournaments that plan on running them. I support the idea of getting rid of the 2222 and 3333 sets where they aren't needed though I see the issue of getting them replaced without randomly picking. From what I saw, most of AA's individual Custom Moveset Project threads ended up with very few replies. Best we can do I suppose is try to spread the word some more.

 

[DunnoBro]

Xanadu facebook is polling for customs legality, customs are winning by a fair amount (sort of. it's split into all customs or only presets... both more than ban though) but I think they want the 10-set list because they want to try preset only before presets + 3ds load, and logically it would minimize the need to load since it is almost double the sets.

Also I think it should be noted the 9/10 slots are "subject" and players who use the 9/10 sets should conduct a button check or otherwise check if it's right, since those will be the sets we delete if people need specific customs. (When allowed)

 

[Balgorxz]

smashboards is broken for me too

 

[Oracle]

Just finished making all the sets on a powersaved 3ds. Took about 1.5 hours, cpuld go faster if you cnaged the name on your 3ds to not have to erase as much every time. So hyped for friday! Tune in on twotch.tv/tourneylocator at 8