Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[19_]

Competitive games are awesome, because usually there isn't much to unlock to get right into playing and expanding ones skill. People put there time into mechanics and practice that matters, and that's awesome.

Now, with custom moves becoming legal, if someone wants to get into Smash 4 competitively they will have to farm every single custom move. Many people don't want to spend money on a 3ds and a 3ds game for a powersave, and many people will not play single player to farm custom moves. You cannot seriously expect players to spend 40+ hours in a mode they don't enjoy, just to be at the starting point for competition?

It would be much easier to pick up another game for those players, which is competitive almost straight out of the box.

Bruh.

This is the community that made nintendo sponsor them at evo the year right after they tried DQ them.

We can do anything.

Like we could probably make a Wii U Powersave a thing.

Haven't heard or seen any news on this though. I think I remember hearing someone working on it.

 

[saltybeach]

Custom moves are going to kill Smash 4 as a competitive game so fast the community won't know what hit them.

Getting into Smash 4 is now a nightmare with custom moves.

Competitive games are awesome, because usually there isn't much to unlock to get right into playing and expanding ones skill. People put there time into mechanics and practice that matters, and that's awesome.

Now, with custom moves becoming legal, if someone wants to get into Smash 4 competitively they will have to farm every single custom move. Many people don't want to spend money on a 3ds and a 3ds game for a powersave, and many people will not play single player to farm custom moves. You cannot seriously expect players to spend 40+ hours in a mode they don't enjoy, just to be at the starting point for competition?

It would be much easier to pick up another game for those players, which is competitive almost straight out of the box.

Also the game is well balanced on its own, and adding all of these custom moves doesn't add diversity, just clutter. This is adding 8-10 match-ups per character. That is overly complex, and not healthy to a competitive environment. There are already over 50 characters in Smash 4. Smash 4 is just going to be over complicated and flop and fail.

I'm curious, out of the 5000 reddit smash people that voted yes for custom moves, how many were interested in banning Rosaluma before that passed and Diddy atm. A lot of the new kids in Smash 4 don't really understand what they want, and think custom moves will somehow solve this games problems. Our smash 4 leaders are leading the game to death quickly.

Oh well, if smash 4 is going to be doomed, and the smash 4 community truly wants competitive moves to be a thing, if they really want to expect everyone in a competitive environment to grind for hours against idiot CPU, if they really want to overburden the meta, then I can't stop them.

I'm shocked that I'm such a minority though, maybe that's because all the people who think competitively are playing other games. Maybe i'm playing the wrong game for competition.

You act like you have to unlock every single custom in the game. You don't. You only have to unlock customs for characters you play and characters you think you should practice match-ups for.

If you really are "looking out for the competitive community" as your posts suggest then you would know that there is a negative connotation going on with smash 4 right now(see: apex). Can smash 4 survive without customs? Maybe. Will smash 4 follow in brawls foot-steps? Maybe. If apex did anything it was show us that lots of people aren't pleased with smash 4's current state. Why wouldn't we try to change that?

I would argue customs promote a less defensive play style. I would argue that customs spice up smash 4 and give it the chance to reach its full potential.

The time to make big changes is now. If we wait until we don't like the game anymore it will be too late.

 

[Conker534]

Lol at all of the people who think being defensive will kill a competitve game

There isn't a reason for me to post here anymore though. This community wants a bad game.

Rip smash 4, have fun playing as your waifu palutena until the game dies everyone

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Bruh.

This is the community that made nintendo sponsor them at evo the year right after they tried DQ them.

We can do anything.

Like we could probably make a Wii U Powersave a thing.

Haven't heard or seen any news on this though. I think I remember hearing someone working on it.

Or, even better, talk Nintendo into providing tournament-ready saves with customs unlocked. A long shot, but if they're getting into the sponsorship game it's not completely unreasonable, especially if they really get a good foothold in the public view.

 

[saltybeach]

Lol at all of the people who think being defensive will kill a competitve game

There isn't a reason for me to post here anymore though. This community wants a bad game.

Rip smash 4, have fun playing as your waifu palutena until the game dies everyone

10/10 response. Personal bias with no regard for anyone's interests except for your own.

 

[Neoleo21]

https://twitter.com/CEOJebailey/status/565304185546358785

New Problem Folks but if we fix it, it'll likely result in EVO 2015 allowing custom moves.

 

[Conker534]

hahaha get rekt!

 

[Spirst]

Alright, this is just getting ridiculous now.

Conker, if you're not going to be productive and continue lambasting the efforts of those attempting to advance Smash 4 as a competitive game, then don't post here. This is a legitimate project and the posts I'm seeing from you have a condescending tone and have devolved into spam.

 

[Raijinken]

Custom moves are going to kill Smash 4 as a competitive game so fast the community won't know what hit them.

Getting into Smash 4 is now a nightmare with custom moves.

Competitive games are awesome, because usually there isn't much to unlock to get right into playing and expanding ones skill. People put there time into mechanics and practice that matters, and that's awesome.

Now, with custom moves becoming legal, if someone wants to get into Smash 4 competitively they will have to farm every single custom move. Many people don't want to spend money on a 3ds and a 3ds game for a powersave, and many people will not play single player to farm custom moves. You cannot seriously expect players to spend 40+ hours in a mode they don't enjoy, just to be at the starting point for competition?

It would be much easier to pick up another game for those players, which is competitive almost straight out of the box.

Also the game is well balanced on its own, and adding all of these custom moves doesn't add diversity, just clutter. This is adding 8-10 match-ups per character. That is overly complex, and not healthy to a competitive environment. There are already over 50 characters in Smash 4. Smash 4 is just going to be over complicated and flop and fail.

I'm curious, out of the 5000 reddit smash people that voted yes for custom moves, how many were interested in banning Rosaluma before that passed and Diddy atm. A lot of the new kids in Smash 4 don't really understand what they want, and think custom moves will somehow solve this games problems. Our smash 4 leaders are leading the game to death quickly.

Oh well, if smash 4 is going to be doomed, and the smash 4 community truly wants competitive moves to be a thing, if they really want to expect everyone in a competitive environment to grind for hours against idiot CPU, if they really want to overburden the meta, then I can't stop them.

I'm shocked that I'm such a minority though, maybe that's because all the people who think competitively are playing other games. Maybe i'm playing the wrong game for competition.

maybe my 2222 kirby build will beat hoo hah tho

They're optional, and if you can't dedicate the 10 minutes it takes you to learn your own character's choices, then I can't see you having hope in competitive anyways ("you" being a generic, not referring to you yourself, Conker). Anyone worth consulting would tell you playing in a tournament setting is the best practice for any sort of match, so requiring the grind for one's own practice is basically negligible. Basically, you don't need "every" custom move to begin learning your own character.

As far as the moveset properties go, we're talking four out of roughly twenty regular moves (not breaking them down by hitboxes, individual jab strikes, etc), 20% of a character's over-all moveset. Additionally, it's the exception, not the rule, to suggest these present entirely new matchups.

The game, while relatively well-balanced, is not entirely well-balanced on its own. Short of an upset, Ike, Palutena, and others have shown they simply can't currently compete with Sheik, Diddy, and others. As pointed out in numerous other places, adding this sort of variety improves the average balance. It isn't clutter if it's useful, and in the majority of cases, this is useful. There are numerous "competitive" games with far more characters and combinations than Smash. Pokemon, Dota, all of Dota's derivatives, and Starcraft all spring to mind as "Vastly more complicated, and incidentally more popular" than Smash. Pokemon can be discounted as it's essentially a mindgame with minor luck elements at higher levels, but there's plenty suggesting that a game with more complexity has a greater appeal to many people.

Out of all Smash players, I don't know any rational ones who want to ban any character. I can't vouch for Reddit, because I refuse to enter that community, but I imagine the same is true there - only the irrational ones.

And of course, nothing forces anyone to use customs. If you don't want to (and as a Sheik player, you have no reason to want to, and every reason to want everyone else not to), you're welcome (and better off) using your default loadout. If Mario throwing a quick 1-3% fireball at you is enough to ruin your understanding of how to beat him as a Shiek, though, perhaps you should spend more time learning interactions and adaptive strategy rather than relying on rote regurgitation of inflexible strings and combos (unless that's your thing, in which case, why play Smash at all?). It's not like any of these customs (bar Lightweight, Extreme Monado Arts, some of Olimar's plucks, and Wii Fit's Steady Breathing) alter any innate properties such as movement speed, weight, jump height, or damage from normals.


On the subject of CEO, it's a shame it's too large of a tournament for people to realistically boycott if it bans customs.

 

[Pazzo.]

Customs at EVO!!

 

[Neerb]

Customs at EVO!!

View attachment 38505

We did it, Reddit Smash Boards!

 

[Zzuxon]

EVO HYPE.
IT'S HAPPENING.
SMASH 4'S COMING INTO ITS OWN.
CONGRATS AMPHAROS.

 

[Neoleo21]

EVO HYPE.
IT'S HAPPENING.
SMASH 4'S COMING INTO ITS OWN.
CONGRATS AMPHAROS.

When did this happen? Did Mr.Wizard officially confirm?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He didn't confirm anything.

 

[kyoskue]

I'm not really willing to read through 18 pages on the subject, but here are my thought:
-If custom moves are to be included then they should each be inspected on an individual base for potential legalization.
-If any custom moves are close to flat-out BETTER than the original special then they should be banned.

Not all custom moves are created equal, and as such they deserve individual scrutiny.
If Diddy Kong were found to be truly broken we wouldn't ban DK just by way of association, so why clump all of the custom moves together in one basket?
Other than that its up to the individual tournament sponsers I s'pose.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

-If any custom moves are close to flat-out BETTER than the original special then they should be banned.

This comes dangerously close to banning customs outright. If we're not allowed to use anything better than defaults, what is the point of customs in the first place?

 

[elegyempty]

-If custom moves are to be included then they should each be inspected on an individual base for potential legalization.

I'm a fan of the "innocent until proven broken" model of banning. If one bans stuff preemptively then it never gets a chance to shake out in practice.

 

[Raijinken]

-If any custom moves are close to flat-out BETTER than the original special then they should be banned.

What makes a superior custom banworthy over a superior default? Especially on, say, Zelda or Wii Fit Trainer or any other generally-considered-terrible character? I could almost understand (but wouldn't support) banning good customs on Diddy/Sheik/whoever is at the top, but like @ ParanoidDrone said, you're basically suggesting that if a custom isn't "situational at best", it shouldn't be allowed.

 

[kyoskue]

This comes dangerously close to banning customs outright. If we're not allowed to use anything better than defaults, what is the point of customs in the first place?

To alter them for different potential matchups you may come across?

I'm talking about STATISTICALLY better, not "more advantageous in some situations".
For example, Mario's Gust Cape (from what I know of it) seems to be his regular Cape PLUS a wind box. It has no disadvantage compared to his other options, and would always be used.
I want to promote moveset diversity.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

To alter them for different potential matchups you may come across?

I'm talking about STATISTICALLY better, not "more advantageous in some situations".
For example, Mario's Gust Cape (from what I know of it) seems to be his regular Cape PLUS a wind box. It has no disadvantage compared to his other options, and would always be used.
I want to promote moveset diversity.

Gust Cape has slower startup and does less damage. There does not exist any custom move that in terms of raw numbers beats out the original in every metric.

That's not to say that there aren't customs where the drawback is basically always manageable. For instance, Shulk should always take Power Vision despite the drawback of a smaller counterattack window upon repeated use.

 

[kyoskue]

What makes a superior custom banworthy over a superior default? Especially on, say, Zelda or Wii Fit Trainer or any other generally-considered-terrible character? I could almost understand (but wouldn't support) banning good customs on Diddy/Sheik/whoever is at the top, but like @ ParanoidDrone said, you're basically suggesting that if a custom isn't "situational at best", it shouldn't be allowed.

Fair enough.
I guess that I should've added a point about legalizing and banning being done on a situational basis that attempts to mitigate the space between tier levels.

Basically "bad" characters would be given more leniency before banning a move.

 

[Thinkaman]

Gust Cape has slower startup and does less damage. There does not exist any custom move that in terms of raw numbers beats out the original in every metric.

Yeah I actually dislike Gust Cape the more I use it; that speed reduction sort of gimps its gimping potential, no pun intended.

 

[kyoskue]

Gust Cape has slower startup and does less damage. There does not exist any custom move that in terms of raw numbers beats out the original in every metric.

Nice catch on the slower startup, but who uses the Cape to build up damage?
Still, if the start-up is indeed a fair bit slower then I'd put it in for the time being.

Honestly, as a community we should definitely embrace custom moves being in tournaments, at least until tested enough to prove them too unpredictable (or whatever other reason) for professional level play.

 

[Pazzo.]

Yeah I actually dislike Gust Cape the more I use it; that speed reduction sort of gimps its gimping potential, no pun intended.

It's defiantly very situational.

But, you've got to admit, carrying opponents off the stage while in free fall is pretty neat.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Fortunately for everyone involved, high tiers having good customs seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Rosalina and Sonic are the only ones that come to mind, actually. (I'm assuming Hammer Spin Dash is still considered amazeballs, I don't use Sonic at all.)

 

[Thinkaman]

Fortunately for everyone involved, high tiers having good customs seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Rosalina and Sonic are the only ones that come to mind, actually. (I'm assuming Hammer Spin Dash is still considered amazeballs, I don't use Sonic at all.)

inb4 Thinkaman copypasta on all the anti-Luma tech everyone gets.

Also, I still think HSD is absurdly good, but apparently the Sonic mains don't think so--so YMMV?

Villager is the closest thing to a "high tier" that truly benefits from customs in an unambiguous way, even if Timber Counter is always going to be seriously overrated at first impression.

 

[Balgorxz]

Fortunately for everyone involved, high tiers having good customs seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Rosalina and Sonic are the only ones that come to mind, actually. (I'm assuming Hammer Spin Dash is still considered amazeballs, I don't use Sonic at all.)

sonic customs makes him less campy which is good, rosalina in the other hand becomes more campy one character shouldnt hurt too much.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

inb4 Thinkaman copypasta on all the anti-Luma tech everyone gets.

Also, I still think HSD is absurdly good, but apparently the Sonic mains don't think so--so YMMV?

Villager is the closest thing to a "high tier" that truly benefits from customs in an unambiguous way, even if Timber Counter is always going to be seriously overrated at first impression.

Not even going into that debate, but you can't deny Luma Warp is a good custom. That's what I was getting at.

Although if you want to do the copypasta I won't stop you, I could actually use the refresher. I get the feeling I'll be defending customs a fair bit in the near future.

sonic customs makes him less campy which is good, rosalina in the other hand becomes more campy one character should hurt too much.

I actually get more aggressive with Luma Warp, its speed is very helpful at getting followups or surprise hits.

 

[Pazzo.]

There's nothing wrong with campy anyway.

Not everyone can be a Meta Knight.

 

[kyoskue]

In any case, I think we all agree that customs should at least be given a chance until proven a broken concept, yes?
Maybe as a special counter-pick ruleset of sorts, similar to counter picking stages, and maybe having a limit to how many total customs you can swap in throughout the tourney's duration?

 

[Pazzo.]

What's the danger of swapping customs out whenever you want to?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What are the list of customs people think are legit broken, I'm curious.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

In any case, I think we all agree that customs should at least be given a chance until proven a broken concept, yes?
Maybe as a special counter-pick ruleset of sorts, similar to counter picking stages, and maybe having a limit to how many total customs you can swap in throughout the tourney's duration?

Eh, I'd just as soon go ham with the whole thing. Whatever customs you want, no limits. I just don't see the point in doing it halfway. If something troublesome comes up we can step back and reassess, but now is not the time to be worried about that I think.

EDIT @ #HBC | Red Ryu the ones I hear most often are Timber Counter, Shooting Star Bit, and Kong Cyclone. Shooting Star Bit mostly because it's a long range projectile on an already defensive zoning character, not because it's actually broken.

 

[kyoskue]

What's the danger of swapping customs out whenever you want to?

Well, I figure that if people are switching them out for certain potential matchups then its a lot like having counter-pick secondaries or preferred stages.

My point was that there has to be at least SOME way to make custom moves legalized in a fair manner, even if we have to think outside of the box to do it.

 

[neohopeSTF]

I can agree with customs being given a chance, and if any of them are OP just ban that custom and move on.

 

[kyoskue]

I can agree with customs being given a chance, and if any of them are OP just ban that custom and move on.

It should take nearly as much consideration to ban a move as to ban an entire character.

After all, not everyone has unlocked all special moves or works with them extensively enough to know them inside and out. There's a very good chance that early on we'll see certain custom moves seriously rock tournament placements until people get used to them.

 

[HeroMystic]

Yeah I actually dislike Gust Cape the more I use it; that speed reduction sort of gimps its gimping potential, no pun intended.

I'm surprised to hear this seeing as so many Mario mains are ecstatic for Gust Cape. Lets keep in mind though Gust Cape does more than gimp people. It also enhances his mobility and keep-away game.

 

[deepseadiva]

YESSSS

Harmonic custom convergence is near.

 

[kyoskue]

I'm surprised to hear this seeing as so many Mario mains are ecstatic for Gust Cape. Lets keep in mind though Gust Cape does more than gimp people. It also enhances his mobility and keep-away game.

See, that's where I got my initial impressions, it seemed pretty amazing from my little experience, but I don't main Mario and don't know how detrimental the starting lag is.

On a side-note, awesome signature.

 

[Raijinken]

What are the list of customs people think are legit broken, I'm curious.

I've seen a lot of rage directed at Kong Chopper, Timber Counter, Gravity Grenade, Lightweight, and Superspeed. All else is considered normal or unimpressive, at least amongst my group.

Gust Cape's startup kinda makes it harder to reflect with on reaction (makes it more read-based), but generally speaking, I love the windbox too much, and would almost always take it over default.