Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Pieman0920]

This discussion is large and wide and whatnot (and Smashboards always acts slow for me) so I must ask something. Some people say that there's fundamentally non-neutral traits of destroyable terrain (Sky World, Castle Seige, ect) and I for one don't particularly get why that is. What's the explination for it?

 

[Eaode]

This discussion is large and wide and whatnot (and Smashboards always acts slow for me) so I must ask something. Some people say that there's fundamentally non-neutral traits of destroyable terrain (Sky World, Castle Seige, ect) and I for one don't particularly get why that is. What's the explination for it?

I don't know about that, but I know Skyworld should not be neutral (probably banned) because when the platforms are gone, so are the edges, falling through the clouds is ******** most of the time, and it has the Hyrule Temple effect.

Castle Seige shouldn't be Neutral because it changes between stages, and has Walk off in the second one.

If I had to express an opinion on destructable terrain, I guess I'd say that not only does it block projectile, from either character, sometimes it can encourage camping, and it allows a player to change the layout of the stage it they wish, allowing them to gain an advantage mid-match that they wouldn't have otherwise.

 

[Eten]

I think what defines neutral is more precise than that, and that's why those stages with destructible terrain are not neutral. Neutral stages all have a common trait in simplicity, and the differences between them are not that impactful. This way if one of the neutral stages were selected randomly, there isn't a possible chance of getting one dramatically better stage for a character vs. another. If skyworld or Luigi's Mansion or Castle Siege were considered neutral, they wouldn't follow the trend of simplicity with the rest of the neutral stages and could potentially off significant bonuses to one characters over others. They fit much better in the counterpick area.

There are no random elements, no damaging hazards in skyworld, nor is it huge and does not allow for infinite stalling. I'm unsure why so many still believe it to be a course likely for banning.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

There's 2 problems with that.

1. If it's banned, no one's going to play it to test ot, and those that do will be called 'casuals' and ignored. It's HUGELY harder to get a stage unbanned then banned.

2. That's not how anything works ever for the reason it's bad. It's like kicking someone out of a club they didn't get into for the purpose of seeing if he should be in. Chucking someone in jail, calling them guilty and then going through a trial. It doesn't work.

1. Like i said before im a cautious person, but my logic behind this isn't that you'd ban the stage for an obstacle it has UNLESS an advanced technique or chain throwing can do it. I mentioned it a million times before that the purpose of the stages in this game is to allow for an overall "fair" experience. Counterpicks are stages that offer advantages, but not in a way that over centralizes the game (ie yoshi's level-forget the name- was banned because if it were allowed, everybody would be fox or somebody fox had a difficult time drillshining to death). I'd rather have a more open game at the beginning and keep it an open game throughout by testing the techniques on the stages than to have a centralized game where the back room has to repeatedly say "my bad!" to everyone who just lost money.

2. This is smash bros, not jail, law, or a club (which i don't understand the analogy for....the other two i do because of the innocent until proven guilty--but a club? what?).

-Putting a stage on the banned list shouldn't mean it is strickly banned, there is always an explanation for it. If that reason is a technique like the drillshine in melee or if it is something stupid like warioware's reward system we'll know. Nothing can change the stage from it's failure, but the ability for people to test the technique's viability on the stage and then determine the (for lack of a better word) "cheapness" of it is all within the framework for deciding on stages.

--we are really arguing the same end, just different means.....

This argument could also be used to ban FD.

except FD doesn't have a boar run in front, drop a bomb and leave you with a significantly large gap to cross. You can close in on people in FD, you can't for half the time you play on Eldin.

 

[Creo]

On another side note ( a little more on topic) Bridge of Eldin is also Extremely campy if there are projectile-wielding characters on it. I was playing a Link vs Toon Link match on that stage that laster almost 11 minutes >_<;

Oh, I've experienced this as well..I was Link versus a Fox and what happened:
Link[me]: Bombs; Arrows; G.Boom
Fox[other guy]: Lasers

It took FOREVER! Luckily I ended that sharade(sp?)by throwing the G.Boom[ala avoiding lasers]and sucked him in to end the d@mn thing.

So, for all of this, Bridge of Eldin(IMO)needs some testing/consideration before being judged by anything. Since it's so huge, the walk offs shouldn't be a big problem.
And the hole, well, thats not a big deal either. Bulblin and the bomb are easy to avoid and you can easily follow a character to their side to avoid the "Gap jump".
I personally want it to be a counter-pick...but, I'll/we'll have to see what happens.

 

[That_Move_is_Key]

On castle siege, a large strike against I have is the switch between the stages, it disrupts your play style as (as far as I can tell) there's no warning and it pulls you up if you're below the horizon, and pulls you down if you were standing above it. countless times has this disrupted my game, where I was in the middle of an aerial when suddenly I was just high enough that my aerial missed my otherwise unsuspecting opponent, who proceeded to smash me off the screen. . . urgh!

the mario sunshine one doesn't have this same problem, though, because you see the platform forming before it lifts you off, and have plenty of time to react.

(oh and one time somehow I got pushed under the third part of castle siege and was KO'd. . at 0 damage!)

 

[ZenJestr]

in castle siege...the stage rumbles a bit and you can hear the rumbling...

 

[Mic_128]

And the whooshing sound plays for a bit too.

Personally I say norfair should be banned. the lava doesn't appear with warning

The camera zooms way back and the lava sloooowly advances.

and it takes up half the stinking stage.

So does the acid/lava in Brinstar but it was legal in Melee.

it also kills the whole point of fighting when people have to rush for the safety capsule (i hear you can airdodge but meh) it just seems a bit too awkward.

You don't even need to do that, you can just shield the lava wave.

1. Like i said before im a cautious person, but my logic behind this isn't that you'd ban the stage for an obstacle it has UNLESS an advanced technique or chain throwing can do it.

And then find out 5 years later that you can do X to get out of the chain throw/AT, when if the stage had remained not banned, it would have been found after a week or 2? From what I hear, some chars previously thought to have been trapped by Dedede's chain grab have found ways out of it. I don't know the specifics though.

(which i don't understand the analogy for....the other two i do because of the innocent until proven guilty--but a club? what?).

Kicking <Stage> out of the cool stage club until they can see if it's worth unbanning. Probably not the best metaphor I've used, sorry.

except FD doesn't have a boar run in front, drop a bomb and leave you with a significantly large gap to cross. You can close in on people in FD, you can't for half the time you play on Eldin.

Run off the edge down the hole, then recover and advance on em. May not be the best, since I just puleld that out my rear just nw, but just keep in mind, Falco was top tier in the first Melee tier list because people couldn't approach Falco at all due to short hop lasers.

 

[:034:]

Opinions..

Neutrals:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Battleship Halberd: Some think this should be counterpick but I disagree. The stage hazards are minimalistic, only last a few seconds and don't kill unless you're in the high percentages. The laser can be DI'd out of, the Crane can be dodged and the cannonball.. Well, everybody who played this should know.
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Island
Smashville

Counterpicks:

Green Hill Zone: No killing hazards, save points give fair warning.
Bridge of Eldin
Brinstar (Melee)
Corneria (Melee): Wall promotes camping.
Distant Planet: Close to Neutral, if it wasn't for random spawning items and the waterfall on the side can be trouble.
Pirate Ship: Slingshot/cannon/whatever doesn't kill. It slings you away, yes, but it's not a killer and it gives fair warning. In fact, every stage change gives fair warning.
Jungle Japes (Melee)
Pokémon Stadium (Melee)
Pokémon Stadium 2
Onett: Camping will be often broken up by the cars coming and driving people over (which also gives fair warning).
Luigi's Mansion: Circle stage is avoided by the fact that the house can break down.
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Norfair: The lava from sides and down give fair warning, seeing how it comes up slowly. The lava from behind can be shielded easily and some characters can jump over it (looking at you Pit).
Shadow Moses Island: Walls can be broken down to prevent wall infinites.
Hanenbow: No killing hazards, no walls, no walk-off stages. Learn the stage a bit to know where the platforms are so you don't get tricked.
Castle Siege: Not a neutral because the warning given off before the change is very slight, and disrupts the flow of play, and sometimes, you can get under the stage edges because of this and not make it back to the stage.
Rainbow Cruise (Melee)
Mario Circuit
Frigate Orpheon: Again, fair warning, it's easy to stay alive with the flip and it doesn't disrupt gameplay too much. No killing hazards either, only problem is, you can get under the stage due to the flip.
Delfino Plaza: Mute City without killing hazards. Platform won't just lift off, the platform forms slowly. Grab-edges make it easier to recover if you do miss it. Close to Neutral, in my opinion.

Banned:

Rumble Falls
75m
Big Blue (Melee)
Hyrule Temple (Melee)
Mushroomy Kingdom
Port Town: Aero Dive
Skyworld
Spear Pillar
WarioWare, Inc.
Flat Zone 2
Mario Bros.
New Pork City

EDIT: 800 posts blabla.

 

[RaigothDagon]

If Halberd is in, Corneria (Melee) should also be in. Only hazard of knock off on the level now is the cannon on the Great Fox. Arwings only do damage and disrupt attacks now, so they aren't as bad as before, plus it was neutral on Melee. And I agree on banned all the way.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Corneria should be a counterpick. The wall allows for more camping, and Halberd doesn't have anything like that.

 

[Mic_128]

Dutch, unless I missed it, Isle delphino got left off your list

 

[:034:]

Dutch, unless I missed it, Isle delphino got left off your list

Ah, crap, you're right. D: *edits*

 

[Dantarion]

I agree completely with that list, although Halberd is kinda sketchy because of the stage hazards.

 

[:034:]

I agree completely with that list, although Halberd is kinda sketchy because of the stage hazards.

The really minimalistic stage hazards? The beam locks onto you, but after 5 seconds it locks onto a place and fires a second and a half later, making for an easy escape. It doesn't kill until the final hit, so you can DI out of it rather easily. The cannonball is easy to predict and the crane can be avoided rather easily with airdodging, sidestepping and rolling.

Check here for more.

 

[Trozz]

Nice list FD. Why would Rumble Falls be considered banned? Is it too imbalanced for people with insane platforming capabilities?

 

[:034:]

Nice list FD. Why would Rumble Falls be considered banned? Is it too imbalanced for people with insane platforming capabilities?

Compare it to Icicle Mountain in Melee, the constant jumping around leaves hardly any room for actual fighting. While the stage gives fair warning before it speeds up, it shouldn't speed up at all. People with low jumps have a disadvantage because they are more likely to die sooner than characters with high jumps.

Yeah, basically the same as Icicle Mountain in Melee. Which is too bad because it has some really great music.

 

[Firestorm88]

If Halberd is in, Corneria (Melee) should also be in. Only hazard of knock off on the level now is the cannon on the Great Fox. Arwings only do damage and disrupt attacks now, so they aren't as bad as before, plus it was neutral on Melee. And I agree on banned all the way.

Corneria's issue is less the hazards and more some tactics due to the stage layout.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i think that every stage that was in melee should keep the judgement it had than that means corneria is neutral ( camping is easy to counter on that stage) onett is banned (camping is impossible to beat on that stage) brinstar is CP jungle japes is neutral (why wouldnt it be) the cruise is CP (moves very slowly) and so on....
my question is, what's your beef with skyworld? it seems pretty neutral. i mean yea, you can make it so there arent any ledges to grab, but the boundaries on the stage are so close that if you dont die you dont really need the edges
and imo every stage that you said was close to neutral, was neutral.
green hill is so big that you can fight away from the check points.
whats so bad about bridge of eldin? any hazards that move that slowly and give that much warning, arent really hazards
distant planet. i think that if your opponent wants to run around spamming no knockback projectiles that do like 4-5 damage, i dont think i would care b/c the rain would come and eventually they would have to fight on the stage.
pirate ship is good as a CP
jungle japes was legal in melee so why not now
i dont see anything wrong with either pokemon stadium especially since the first was neutral in melee
luigis mansions... comeon you guys, that is easily neutral. there are absolutly no stage hazards and after you fight long enuff, it turns into final D
yoshi island: neutral in melee
norfair. the lava from the the sides i think** can still kill and be thrown into so i say ban
hanenbow. it may be annoying but it easy to figure out how the stage works, and no stage hazards... neutral
castle siege. the warning for the stage change is actually pretty blatent if you know what to look for, you cant miss it. the first stage is battle field and the second is camp proof and the third is final D... neutral
mario circuit: the cars kill me at moderate damage and can get pretty random with the number of passing cars and you can hold them back so they cross both sides at the same time... i say banned but only slightly.
frigate. it has never killed me after i knew where the ledges were and the flip doesnt dirupt and both stage are very plain.. neutral
delphino: theres like 8 stages and they are all very plain and there are no hazards... neutral cause i dont see why not
mushroomy... if scrolling warrants a ban, ban it if not dont and make it CP
and if warioware didnt make you invincble, that would be fair game too
other than that its fine.

 

[verditude]

Jungle Japes and Corneria were CP in Melee. Japes should be banned this time due to the new swimming mechanic that makes it impossible to jump out of the water before being rushed off to the side.
Norfair should be a CP. Brinstar was CP in Melee and it had similar hazards.
The melee Yoshi's Island was banned.
We don't really need more than 6-8 neutral stages.

 

[E-Jolteon]

I think we should ban final destination. U can get under da stage and stage, and the background is even more distracting than the music.

To be serious, I think Wario Ware is deserving of a ban, because the minigames don't give everyone the same reward. Thats the only reason.

New pork City should be banned due to it's size. It's just too big.

Mario bros, since killing on that stage is way to hard, and death by obstacles is far to easy.

75m, because of the same reason as the Mario Bros stage.

Both of the metroid stages.. Their fun, but they really are understandable for banning, with one that turns around 180 degrees, that could put you in some really bad spots. Norfairs Lavaputs a distinct advaantage on whatever player is lucky enough to be where near to safety capsul is gonna spawn.

Lastly, Spear pillar, and Hanenbow.

Everything else has nothing bannable. I'm serious. Oh, by the way, unplayable unless the music is turned up.

 

[Seanson]

ive never been swept away by the river. maybe you just arent good at getting out of it.

 

[verditude]

You can't immediately jump out in Brawl, are you talking about Brawl or Melee? Try this: Jump in the water near the left side of the stage, and try to jump out before getting swept off.

 

[Commander Jesus]

final destination is not bannable.

 

[Bladehero]

Uh no. FD will never be banned and if you are under the stage aim for the ledge perfectly. Metroid stages gives off warning before a hazard is going to happen. Luigi Mansion is too big for being netrual. Skyworld have breakable ledges and the temple tunnel syndrome. And the guy who says Rumble falls banned. Are fast enough to press jump? Cause I never got caught in the river even in high perctange. And for neutral stages 6 should be enough.

 

[Bladehero]

You can't immediately jump out in Brawl, are you talking about Brawl or Melee? Try this: Jump in the water near the left side of the stage, and try to jump out before getting swept off.

Who falls near the on left side water on purpose? No reason for ban.

 

[E-Jolteon]

Uh no. FD will never be banned and if you are under the stage aim for the ledge perfectly. Metroid stages gives off warning before a hazard is going to happen. Luigi Mansion is too big for being netrual. Skyworld have breakable ledges and the temple tunnel syndrome. And the guy who says Rumble falls banned. Are fast enough to press jump? Cause I never got caught in the river even in high perctange. And for neutral stages 6 should be enough.

First off, there was a reason I didn't bring up melee stages. We already know about them. Whether it was banned or not should carry over.

Secondly, if you'll look at my poor typing on Final Destination, i.e U=you, you'd notice I was joking anyway.

Also, about norfair, I was just kind of pulling my reason out of thin air anyway.. I never really played that stage.

Sky world only gives a disadvantage to a select few characters, and remember there are cloud under the breakable ledges to stand on, though I'm not sure if their grab-able.

 

[Commander Jesus]

First off, there was a reason I didn't bring up melee stages. We already know about them. Whether it was banned or not should carry over.

Secondly, if you'll look at my poor typing on Final Destination, i.e U=you, you'd notice I was joking anyway.

Also, about norfair, I was just kind of pulling my reason out of thin air anyway.. I never really played that stage.

Sky world only gives a disadvantage to a select few characters, and remember there are cloud under the breakable ledges to stand on, though I'm not sure if their grab-able.

Well then why ***** about if your not serious?

 

[paderdash]

skyworld gives a disadvantage to everycharacter that has an up b that doesnt attack enough times to break through the ledges....also the clouds can vary depending on if you fall through them or not.....

 

[King Zeal]

I ran a "mini-tourney" a couple of nights back iand I came to a few conclusions:

Port Town: Aero Drive is ban-worthy IMO. At one point in the tourney, my opponent and I were down to one stock, and the stage landed on a point where the street was running horizontally so that the cars could not be seen approaching. To be safe, I stood on top of one of the platforms, when BAM! a car suddenly came and killed me randomly. To me, this was enough to warrant a ban in any future tourneys I run.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

My opinion:

Neutrals:
Battlefield (Platforms are fine etc...)
Yoshi's Island (Nothing wrong with it)
Smashville (The most neutral stage in the game)

Counterpicks:
Final Destination (glitchy edges and a weird design that hurts recovery)
Lylat Cruise (tilting, odd design and distracting background, could maybe be argued for neutral)
Delfino Plaza (tons of design changing, walk offs, close to ban)
Luigi's Mansion (hard to kill people, stage changing and other such things)
Corneria - Melee (there are lasers but it's mostly okay)
Green Greens - Melee (wind and stuff, it barely makes the counterpick)

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom (scrolling, 1-2 is awful)
Mario Circuit (go cart hazards, walk offs)
Rumble Falls (scrolling and those spike hazards and stuff)
Bridge of Eldin (hazards, stage breaking, projectile spam and stalling)
Pirate Ship (tons of hazards including bombs, catapult, storm, low gravity, rock and everything)
Norfair (the lava hazards)
Frigate Orpheon (the flipping is awful and one side of the stage has no edge)
Halberd (walk offs at the beginning, opprunity for death at the beginning, terrible hazards later on)
Castle Siege (constantly changing, walk offs)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (constantly changing, some of the forms have terrible hazards)
Spear Pillar (the worst hazards ever, BANNED BANNED BANNED)
Port Town Aero Dive (Those cars, weird design where you can't get KO'd from the bottom)
Skyworld (Easy to spike through clouds, no tether recoveries, trying to get back to stage and the platforms respawn...)
WarioWare, Inc. (Do I even need to say?)
Distant Planet (Those items, the rain, the bulborb, walk offs)
New Pork City (TOO BIG, ultimate chimera)
Summit (Low gravity, no edges on the bottom, low gravity, the fish)
75m (horrible design, tons of hazards, walk offs at parts)
Mario Bros. (horrible design, totally wrecks the basic gameplay, tons of hazards, walk offs)
Flat Zone 2 (so many freaking hazards, some of which kill at very low %, walk offs)
PictoChat (very unpredictable, many hazards)
Hanenbow (terrible design and bad for tether recoveries)
Shadow Moses Island (walk offs, those walls)
Green Hill Zone (hazards, bad design, walk offs)
Pokemon Stadium - Melee (transformations that are terrible, bad edges)
Rainbow Cruise - Melee (constantly moving, full of hazards, very anti-smash bros gameplay)
Temple - Melee (TOO BIG)
Yoshi's Island - Melee (walk offs, lousy pit in the middle)
Onett - Melee (walk offs, car hazards)
Big Blue - Melee (Do I even need to say?)
Jungle Japes - Melee (water, klaptraps...)
Brinstar - Melee (Acid, destructible stage)

There, very fair and I think you'll all agree.

I'd like to see more opinions on this...

 

[Seanson]

seems like you're just stating the stage quirks.

as for FD, who gets stuck under it anyways.

could you clarify why changing designs warrant a ban?

also, why don't you seems to like global hazards. brinstar for example, the lava effects everyone the same. some characters have easier ways to avoid the lava (like peach or puff), but isnt that the reason it is counter-pickable?

 

[NintendoTogepi]

seems like you're just stating the stage quirks.

as for FD, who gets stuck under it anyways. Many people

could you clarify why changing designs warrant a ban? Well, they change the stage and stuff, forcing you to constantly readjust, plus some of the designs are very lousy... besides, all of the changing design stages are banned for a different reason anyway

also, why don't you seems to like global hazards. brinstar for example, the lava effects everyone the same. some characters have easier ways to avoid the lava (like peach or puff), but isnt that the reason it is counter-pickable?
It's still a hazard and it's no good.

10CHARACTERS

 

[VariableGear]

I don't mean to criticize anyone, but don't the evolving stages take more memorization (skill) to play than the standard ones? In the changing stages, you need to deal with your opponent and the stage itself, and I would say that takes more mastery of play than a game on Battlefield.

It's just a thought.

 

[MysticKenji]

NT, your list is horrible and I'm never going to any of your tournies.
No johns.

 

[Eten]

I ran a "mini-tourney" a couple of nights back iand I came to a few conclusions:

Port Town: Aero Drive is ban-worthy IMO. At one point in the tourney, my opponent and I were down to one stock, and the stage landed on a point where the street was running horizontally so that the cars could not be seen approaching. To be safe, I stood on top of one of the platforms, when BAM! a car suddenly came and killed me randomly. To me, this was enough to warrant a ban in any future tourneys I run.

The only sideways stop, the only safezone is the top platform.

If Port Town: Aero Dive gets banned it should not be because "randomness" because there is either visual warning on consistent safe-zones at *every* location.(Safe zones just don't = platforms this time around), but instead it has to do with the sheer level of effect that getting hit by a car has.

I think whatever is decided in terms of the cars here has to also go for the klap-trap in Jungle Japes and the fish in Summit. If you play right you can actually avoid all those hazards but they all have the ability to KO you easily.

 

[Noypi_GjD]

Banned:
Pirate Ship (tons of hazards including bombs, catapult, storm, low gravity, rock and everything)
Hazards are easy to avoid. The bombs can be seen coming towards the stage and the flipper appears before throwing a character off the stage. The low gravity is brief, the rock portion only provides a wall for a moment. It should be considered for a counter pick.

Frigate Orpheon (the flipping is awful and one side of the stage has no edge)
There is a fair warning before the 180 flip. Besides the flip the stage there are a few moving platforms quite can side KO if you stand on them for too long, but other than that the stage is basic. This should be a neutral.

Halberd (walk offs at the beginning, opprunity for death at the beginning, terrible hazards later on)
In my opinion, this stage is similar to Melee's Mute City. "Terrible Hazards" is an exaggeration, the laser is slow and does not dish out much damage. The claw is also easy to avoid. Should be a neutral.

Castle Siege (constantly changing, walk offs)
The only problem with this level are the 2nd part's walk offs, however because of the platforms it is easy to avoid. This should be a neutral stage.

PictoChat (very unpredictable, many hazards)
Flat stage with a 'few' hazards. Most of the stage changes are simple changes to the stage's layout. The hazards: Two flames, two missles, spiky sides, wind, and half pipe do not make dramatic hazards to the match. I believe they add a little flavor to the matches and do not give any specific character huge advantage over any other. This should be a counterpick

Pokemon Stadium - Melee (transformations that are terrible, bad edges)
Neutral in melee. The changes with the edge/windmill make it controversial. For now a counter pick.

Rainbow Cruise - Melee (constantly moving, full of hazards, very anti-smash bros gameplay)
Brinstar - Melee (Acid, destructible stage)
Both these were counter picks in melee, they should continue to be counter picks. The lava is easy to avoid, and rainbow cruise moves slow.

Jungle Japes - Melee (water, klaptraps...)
The water makes it much more difficult to recover when compared to the water in melee. I think it should be banned now.

I'd like to see more opinions on this...

There is my opinion.

 

[PltnmNgl]

Is smashboards going to have an official counterpick/banned stage list soon?

 

[The_Marooner]

I would just like to post in support of the Back Room people opening up the discussion for the non-chosen ones. Not to contribute to it, as the sheer volume of useless posts would make it impossible to have an effective discussion, but just to read it, if that's feasible. First, I think that being able to see the collective thought process that goes into the official list would lead to more rapid acceptance of the list in this community (and others), as well as screen out at least 50 "why is X stage banned" threads. Second, any of those "why is X stage banned" threads that remain would be far more focused, since we would know the criteria on which the decision was based in the first place. Finally, this particular topic is of much greater interest to the general smash community than most of what (I imagine) is discussed in the back room, and is fairly unique.

Of course, maybe I'm just trying to satisfy my own curiousity.

 

[Firestorm88]

I have a question about the first point (I think it is) of Port Town. Is there a safespot? There's two platforms on equal height, we were standing on it, and still got hit.

I'd like to add that lack of technical skill (Final Destination edges) is not a reason for a ban or counterpick.