Official Stage Legality Discussion

[betterthanbonds9]

my thoughts on stages and a little summary

Neutral:
Battlefield-duh
Final Destination-duh
Yoshi's Island-besides a center platform that changes from -- to / to \ slowly, it's as neutral without being named FD or battlefield as possible
Smashville-it's FD with a horizontal moving platform
Lylat Cruise-oh no it tilts....still neutral
Halberd-maybe a CP, but i feel the hazards to be easily avoidable to the point that unless your going to lose the match anyway, they wont make a difference
Delfino Plaza-there's water and the location is random (i think, i dont play on it much), but nothing that i can see gives any more advantage to others

Counterpick:
Frigate Orpheon-hate the stage, but it should be counterpick
Pokemon Stadium-hate the windmill to the point that i want it banned, but it should be CP
Corneria-CP in melee, CP in brawl
Rainbow Ride-see corneria
Castle Siege- destructable stages can have issues, the trasition part of the stage is weird, but doesn't deserve ban
Pokemon Stadium 2-nothing deserving ban from what i can tell, some characters have advantages, which is EXACTLY why it should be a CP (that's why it's called a COUNTER pick)
Distant Planet- bulbord does nothing bad, walk off on the side, but it's avoidable
Brinstar-see corneria
Norfair-if the lava wave weren't air dodge able, i'd say it's banned, but you can airdodge it so i vote CP, overall, it's a pimped out version of brinstar, which is CP
Hanenbow-hate this stage, but i see nothing wrong with it being CP
Green Greens-see hanenbow
Green Hill Zone-dont think you can CG off the stage, checkpoint is one of the wimpiest hazards in the game
Pirate Ship-see halberd, but with some terrain changes causing to be CP
Onett-see corneria

Banned:
Mario Circuit-walk off, constant cars (even if they are visible, it's easy to be forced into the cars)
Mushroomy Kingdom-yuck, walk off and sidescroller
New Pork City-huge and the chimera
PictoChat-random annoying hazards
Port Town Aero Dive-debating whether this should be CP or not, i favor ban because im biased and dont like the stage
Rumble Falls- if there weren't any of those spikes on the map, it'd be CP; sadly, there are spikes on the stage
WarioWare, Inc.-doesn't even need explanation
Flat Zone 2-as if flatzone 1 didn't have flaws
75m-huge, dk jumps out and tosses springs at you...
Mario Bros.-impossible to kill
Spear Pillar-LOVE THIS STAGE, but no way i can justify it to be not banned (stupid palkia, dialga is fine, only slows time, but palkia screws with the directions and the gravity)
Temple-banned in melee, banned in brawl
Big Blue- see temple
Jungle Japes-if you hit the water on the left side, your dead, hit it on the right, then if there is a creature in the water, you're dead
Shadow Moses Island-walls
Skyworld- control th emiddle, control the stage
The Summit- wow, i actually liked icicle mountain more than this
Bridge of Eldin-walk off AND laser-lockable, plus the divide just over centralizes the use of range attacks like dins fire, aura sphere, pit's arrows, falco/fox lasers, etc
Luigi's Mansion- can take forever to KO, it wouldn't be bad if like shadow moses you can take the bottom down without taking the top down, but you can't

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Seriously, I may be sounding like a broken record, but this arguing is futile and is destroying the very purpose of the variety of stages Brawl has to offer. We shouldn't be banning stages unless there is a CLEAR reason to do so. Wario Ware, lets ban it because some people are given stars. Lets ban New Pork City because it is huge. Lets Ban skyworld because of the meteor smash abuse and tether recovery folks getting screwed. But when we start arguing about inane factors that could or could not break this game like DDD's chain throw, then I think we are crossing a line that shouldn't be crossed. We should test it out in tournies before we go on banning them. Look, some suggested banning Norfair, but after playing it extensively, the very fact is you can shield the lava wave or air dodge and not be penalized. Banning Bridge of Eldin doesn't make sense either since the "unpredictable" boars that charge across are easily dodged not to mention when they actually hit you, there is barely any knock back. Lets just chill for a bit and play some tournies with everything allowed except for the OBVIOUS outliers. Neutrals are easy enough to decide on. But come on fellas. You guys are just going too far.

then don't post in this topic, over-analyzing stuff is part of the meta-game because everyone is trying to find an exploit and others are trying to make sure the unfair exploits cannot cause the overcentralizing of the rest on the game.

-like this, lets say DDD or IC win a couple thousand in tournies by CGing people off of some stages and winning enough neutral stages to win the rounds. Now people have to use characters that DDD can't CG because otherwise they have a far less chance of winning. Now the only choices are to either A:ban DDD and IC B:ban the exploits or C: ban the stages that the exploits affect.

A: banning a character is simply BS
B: why should we limit a very useful move?
C: far and away the best choice, allows for a competitive scene, but doesn't disallow the use of tricks that are simply good

 

[Rhubarbo]

Seriously, I may be sounding like a broken record, but this arguing is futile and is destroying the very purpose of the variety of stages Brawl has to offer. We shouldn't be banning stages unless there is a CLEAR reason to do so. Wario Ware, lets ban it because some people are given stars. Lets ban New Pork City because it is huge. Lets Ban skyworld because of the meteor smash abuse and tether recovery folks getting screwed. But when we start arguing about inane factors that could or could not break this game like DDD's chain throw, then I think we are crossing a line that shouldn't be crossed. We should test it out in tournies before we go on banning them. Look, some suggested banning Norfair, but after playing it extensively, the very fact is you can shield the lava wave or air dodge and not be penalized. Banning Bridge of Eldin doesn't make sense either since the "unpredictable" boars that charge across are easily dodged not to mention when they actually hit you, there is barely any knock back. Lets just chill for a bit and play some tournies with everything allowed except for the OBVIOUS outliers. Neutrals are easy enough to decide on. But come on fellas. You guys are just going too far.

Wario Ware legal??? If two people successfuly clear a mini-game, one person grows and the other becomes invincible RANDOMLY! Wario Ware is worse than leaving on items.

 

[Rikka]

He agreed with banning Warioware, (one of the three stages confirmed banned, for those who missed it) wise one.

 

[The_NZA]

then don't post in this topic, over-analyzing stuff is part of the meta-game because everyone is trying to find an exploit and others are trying to make sure the unfair exploits cannot cause the overcentralizing of the rest on the game.

-like this, lets say DDD or IC win a couple thousand in tournies by CGing people off of some stages and winning enough neutral stages to win the rounds. Now people have to use characters that DDD can't CG because otherwise they have a far less chance of winning. Now the only choices are to either A:ban DDD and IC B:ban the exploits or C: ban the stages that the exploits affect.

A: banning a character is simply BS
B: why should we limit a very useful move?
C: far and away the best choice, allows for a competitive scene, but doesn't disallow the use of tricks that are simply good

No, you are completely missing the point of this topic and the discussion. The Discussion is to not nitpick over every exploit possible on every level, and the theoretical possibility on how it can potentially change the outcome of balanced matches. The Discussion is to get closer to an answer of what should and should not be allowed in tournament play. I am not suggesting we let every character use whatever they want wherever they can to completely change the outcome of every game. I am simply suggesting that we should see a broken mechanic change the course of a tourny before we go on banning the level. Banning a stage should be a last, NOT a first resort. This topic is inane because there are only 3 or 4 levels that should be clear bans. Beyond that, there needs to be a lot of testing. Until we see a DDD player actually pwn the pants off the competition on a walk off level, we shouldn't be banning it. You guys are being WAY too trigger happy with the BAN button.

 

[Eten]

Banning skyworld is crossing a line that we shouldn't cross. Wario Ware, New Pork City, yes, and Temple is a cross over from melee. But I agree. I'm tired of people who are ready to redefine what is competitive in their own way because there are elements in the game that they are not in agreement with simply because they failed to be sufficient in them. EVEN IF stage elements are random, being that they are predictable or controllable brings in another aspect of play. Banning those stages because you lose at them is simply redefining play in your own favor. You don't ban things like shield grabbing, so simply because stages are easy to cut out does not mean it's an aspect of competitive play you should mod to your liking! Good players are good because they excel at the game for what it is, not for what they think it should be.

Electric pokemon stadium II is an example. You're right, person in the middle gets an advantage. GOOD, try to manipulate your position so you get that advantage, not your opponent. How any of you can think that to be unfair or non-competitive baffles me.

 

[Rokk141]

Jungle Japes-if you hit the water on the left side, your dead, hit it on the right, then if there is a creature in the water, you're dead

The Summit- wow, i actually liked icicle mountain more than this

Bridge of Eldin-walk off AND laser-lockable, plus the divide just over centralizes the use of range attacks like dins fire, aura sphere, pit's arrows, falco/fox lasers, etc

Luigi's Mansion- can take forever to KO, it wouldn't be bad if like shadow moses you can take the bottom down without taking the top down, but you can't

Jungle Japes was counterpick in melee I believe. We should be playing it until enough evidence emerges to warrant a ban.

Are you kidding me? I'm sorry, but your dislike of a stage is not grounds of its banning. Learn to play on a stage you don't like; it's not going to be banned because of your personal tastes.

To give an advantage to a playstyle is what makes something counterpick-able. You will know you're playing on the stage, so you can take advantage of it. If the walk-offs become too much of an issue--after tournament play, not just speculation--then maybe a ban will be justified.

Luigi's Mansion is really easy to destroy. I don't really see it being banned for that reason.

 

[Rokk141]

then don't post in this topic, over-analyzing stuff is part of the meta-game because everyone is trying to find an exploit and others are trying to make sure the unfair exploits cannot cause the overcentralizing of the rest on the game.

-like this, lets say DDD or IC win a couple thousand in tournies by CGing people off of some stages and winning enough neutral stages to win the rounds. Now people have to use characters that DDD can't CG because otherwise they have a far less chance of winning. Now the only choices are to either A:ban DDD and IC B:ban the exploits or C: ban the stages that the exploits affect.

A: banning a character is simply BS
B: why should we limit a very useful move?
C: far and away the best choice, allows for a competitive scene, but doesn't disallow the use of tricks that are simply good

Good job telling people not to post because they don't agree with you. This thread is about discussing the validity of stages, not about mindlessly swinging the ban-hammer at whatever rubs you the wrong way. You're right, people are trying to theorize exploits, but until they're proven to be both possible and game-breaking, there's no need to act irrationally to attempt to stop them. If the game becomes overcentralized on one exploit, then a ban is warranted.

I believe as more people are testing D3's chain grab, more characters are finding ways to get out of it. I may be wrong in that statement, as I'm not exactly keeping up with it, but we can't just ban things without having a clear understanding of how exactly they work. If an abundance of characters are found to have techniques to escape a D3 or IC chain grab, then there's not really a reason to ban a stage.

Let me further detail your example. A person who mains D3 loses the first round, and picks a stage with walk-offs for his counterpick. You now have the option of either playing a character that can escape his chain grab, or you can choose D3 or IC to have the exact same advantage they have.

Your three solutions are inherently flawed because they assume that those are the only three options. We do not have to ban anything, at least not yet. If we ban all walk-offs, we are forcing the meta game to go in a certain direction. The meta game will evolve on its own. To force your opponent into a disadvantage is your advantage. By potentially forcing your opponent to play as a different character, you're obtaining a very legitimate advantage over that person. That is the point of a counterpick stage. If it is proven that D3 and IC's chain grab is game breaking, then--and only then--should we resort to banning stages because of it.

 

[Rokk141]

I know this is my third post in a row, and I don't mean to spam this forum, but I feel this point should be made. A lot of people seem to view any advantage or psudo-random event as a bannable offense under the guise that it masks who is really the more skilled player; however, this is not a correct path.

Please do not forget that there are three different categories that stages may fall in. The stage without any elements described above would be considered neutral, but a stage with some elements above is not immediately banned. That's why we have the counterpick category, to have a buffer between the completely neutral stages (although that's an oxymoron, no stage is really completely neutral), from the extreme stages. A counterpick stage's role in competitive play is to give you an advantage over your opponent, be it through giving your usual character choice an advantage or your opponent's character choice a disadvantage.

There are basically two factors that could keep a stage from being neutral: the layout and stage hazards. Allow me to briefly examine both. The one I would like to focus on for the layout is Norfair. The stage highly emphasizes strong aerial combat while minimizing ground combat. This would clearly advantage those characters with strong aerial games. This could give you a legitimate advantage if your best character has a strong aerial game or your opponent's best character has a weak aerial game.

For stage hazards I would like to focus on Norfair again and Great Sea. Both stages have psudo-random elements to them. There's no exact pattern to the lava or what happens to the ship, but all events are clearly shown ahead of time to give notice to the players. In Norfair the camera zooms out before the lava flows in, and all other lava can be seen in the foreground and background. On the Great Sea, the bombs fly slowly through the background before landing on the ship, and the catapult is visible for a few seconds before it finally goes off.

Notice those signs and use them to your advantage. If the lava slowly flows in from the left, attempt to get better positioning than your opponent and use the lava to defeat your opponent. Try to get your opponent to fly into the catapult or where the bomb will explode.

This is also a display of skill. To be able to master more than one character to take advantage of stage layouts and to adapt to the changing conditions to beat your opponent. So long as the players are given notice of what is happening on the stage, and one character is not randomly killed by an unavoidable stage hazard, the stage should be considered a valid stage for tournament play.

 

[Firestorm88]

Banning skyworld is crossing a line that we shouldn't cross. Wario Ware, New Pork City, yes, and Temple is a cross over from melee. But I agree. I'm tired of people who are ready to redefine what is competitive in their own way because there are elements in the game that they are not in agreement with simply because they failed to be sufficient in them. EVEN IF stage elements are random, being that they are predictable or controllable brings in another aspect of play. Banning those stages because you lose at them is simply redefining play in your own favor. You don't ban things like shield grabbing, so simply because stages are easy to cut out does not mean it's an aspect of competitive play you should mod to your liking! Good players are good because they excel at the game for what it is, not for what they think it should be.

Electric pokemon stadium II is an example. You're right, person in the middle gets an advantage. GOOD, try to manipulate your position so you get that advantage, not your opponent. How any of you can think that to be unfair or non-competitive baffles me.

I feel as if the Pokemon Stadium 2 thing is sort of directed as me as I've mentioned it multiple times and haven't seen it really coming out of anyone else. I do not believe it should be banned and think it makes a good counter-pick. I was just pointing out an observation and calling it worse than the low gravity.

And the person who wrote the really long post, you should spend that time reading the thread. The majority of people discussing aren't ban-happy.

 

[Giga Hand]

I say find a n00b, play the stages, ban them if said n00b pwns you.

 

[Zero Beat]

See, that's the problem. WHY should it be out? Because it moves slightly? Because there's some stage hazzards that you can see and predict and avoid (or better yet, knock your opponent into)? Neutral? Hell no. Counterpick? Well it's not broken, it's not an instant death hazard, so why not?

Because by eliminating outside externalities, you have a clean one on one. That's why stages like Final Destination and Battlefield are so played. Smash Ville isn't bad either.

Notice those signs and use them to your advantage. If the lava slowly flows in from the left, attempt to get better positioning than your opponent and use the lava to defeat your opponent. Try to get your opponent to fly into the catapult or where the bomb will explode.

Since you're forgetting that it's easier said than done, then I'll play that game too.

Let's say you're in the finals and it's down to you and me.(You and your opponent only have one stock)

However, I've got 129%(that you've worked so hard to build up) and you just spawned with 0%. The prize is huge, and you've got it in the bag. Assuming that by default, you SHOULD win this one on one, give me your success rate if we were on Final Destination, and if we were on Pikman's world or whatever that stupid green place is(Olimar's stage). For the sake of playing more levels, you'd really risk your 'I can almost taste you' prize money? I think not.

Level the terrain to even ground, and let the better player win the prize, not the guy that wins by chance. Would you rather win with honor or by chance? I guess self fulfillment depends on the person.(Last two sentences were moot, I know, but it may apply to you, maybe)

 

[Mic_128]

because you spend more time worrying about not being screwed by the stage than actual fighting. much like rumble falls and melee's icycle mountain. low gravity and conveyor belts are party game mechanics, not competitive aspects.

That's all on point of view. It's not random, it doesn't randomly reward a player (warioware) and it doesn't randomly do anything, there's pleanty of warning (the jumbo-vision in the background). Low gravity does nothing except make all characters have more arial game, and if your character is bad in the air, then STAY ON THE GROUND.

I do find the treadmills annoying, but not enough to go omfg this sux ban plz" It's a haxard, yes, but not a broken one. Again, you're given pleanty of warning in advance. If you can't deal with it, don't let people know, or they'll be glad to counterpick you with it, especially if you refuse to play on it normally.

Hey Mic, I was curious. Is the Smash Back Room considering doing more then just posting a list? It would certainly help the acceptance of the official list if you presented a write up on why or why not a stage is allowed on the more controversial choices.

I don't know. If they dont though, I'll be glad to answer any questions about it, though I expect, when it's posted, for a number of the Smash Broomers to frequent it for a bit.

Corneria's fin allows certain characters (METAKNIGHT) to up+b and gain invincibility, then come down with a d-air or b-air or something and up+b again for an instant attack + auto invincibility.

That was in Melee. One of my favorite strats actually as Samus. Drop down while doing up air, then up-b and grab the edge. Repeat. However it was easily blocked by someone grabbing the edge.

I truly do not think Final Destination should be a neutral map. The edges simply aren't fair for a lot of characters.

1 Word. BAttlefield. I hated those edges with a passion. Was perfectly fine though, just had to be sure not to lean too far forward when grabbing. Same here.

Am I the only one that thinks that Pirate Ship should be banned? The cannon gives over 30+ damage per hit, and the catapult can grab ungodly early percent KOs. I love the level, but some of the hazards are too extreme IMO.

The bombs can be seen in the background and have about 3-4 secs flight time before hitting and can be dodged easily. And the catapult thing (what IS that anyway?) is easy enough to dodge, especially as you can see it coming.

Because by eliminating outside externalities, you have a clean one on one. That's why stages like Final Destination and Battlefield are so played. Smash Ville isn't bad either.

And it's why FD and Battlefield were the only stages played at all, right? Oh wait! Tehre were stages that 'have outside influences' that were in Melee. They're called Counterpicks. Looking at you, Brinstar, Mute City. Hell, even pokemon stadium if you want to get picky.

However, I've got 129%(that you've worked so hard to build up) and you just spawned with 0%. The prize is huge, and you've got it in the bag. Assuming that by default, you SHOULD win this one on one, give me your success rate if we were on Final Destination, and if we were on Pikman's world or whatever that stupid green place is(Olimar's stage). For the sake of playing more levels, you'd really risk your 'I can almost taste you' prize money? I think not.

Well, I'm probably biased, but I find myself both enjoying, and doing better on the stages with stage hazards. Why? I don't know, I just do. Fact is, if I counterpick someone on say, Norfair, and I lose to a stage hazard, well that's jusy my bad luck. Had I known player X was as good on that stage, I would have picked another one.

Level the terrain to even ground, and let the better player win the prize, not the guy that wins by chance. Would you rather win with honor or by chance? I guess self fulfillment depends on the person.(Last two sentences were moot, I know, but it may apply to you, maybe)

To me, the only 'honour' in a videogame is winning by not doing something that someone has no chance of excaping (IE, the posibility of an unbreakable chainthrow, or unplugging someones controller.) Anything else is fair game.

Oh and Zero, the quote in your sig is rather an interesting choice by someone who seems to have a closed mind on stage choices.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Neutral:

Battlefield: Flat, 3 platforms. Very basic.
Final Destination: Flat, and aside from the annoying edges similar to Battlefield in Melee, no major issues.
Yoshi's Island: Flat, moving platform. Pretty basic.
Smashville: Flat, moving platform.
Lylat Cruise: Slow moving stage, basically like Battlefield with some tilting action.
Delfino Plaza: Moves between a Battlefield like stage and a few other ordinary looking areas.
Pokemon Stadium: I see no reason to ban this stage. The windmill isn't worse than the rock formation for camping, and if you don't like it, wait a minute.. >_>
Castle Siege: Moves between 3 sections, 2 of which are very basic. The 2nd part has a walk off, but there are platforms. Potentially moved to counterpick but I'll leave it here for now.
Halberd: I'd debate putting this on the counterpick list because of the random damaging distraction, but it is very easy to avoid.

Counterpick:

Frigate Orpheon: Flips over, could offer an advantage to characters who could survive the flip (assuming they get caught by it).
Rainbow Cruise: Slow moving, could offer advantage to characters with multiple jumps and/or good air games.
Pokemon Stadium 2: Gravity and treadmills can offer advantage to some characters, pretty basic otherwise. Potentially moved to neutrals.
Distant Planet: Walk off on one side, and an easy to avoid hazard.
Brinstar: Lava offers advantage to some characters.
Hanenbow: Weird stage, can't see banning it as of now.
Green Greens: Bomb blocks and apples, otherwise basic.
Green Hill Zone: Walk off edges.
Pirate Ship: Some damaging distractions.
Onett: some damaging distractions.
PictoChat: Damaging distractions, otherwise no problems.
Port Town Aero Dive: Cars do damage, similar to Mute City from Melee.
Jungle Japes: Same as melee.
Shadow Moses Island: Not sure if the walls or walk off will prove to be a problem, making it a counterpick for now.
Skyworld: Breakable platforms, not sure if it will be a problem.
Luigi's Mansion: Stage offers some advantage against projectiles, otherwise basic.
The Summit: Kind of annoying, see no reason to ban it yet.

Banned:

Norfair: Huge lava wave can take a stock.
Mario Circuit: Walk off edges and damaging cars.
Mushroomy Kingdom: Walk off edges, side scrolling.
New Pork City: Way too big, someone can easily use a projectile and then run the whole match.
Rumble Falls: vertical scrolling, damaging distractions, walk off edges.
WarioWare, Inc.: Do I really need to explain this one?
Flat Zone 2: Damaging distractions, walk off edges.
75m: Too big, damaging distractions.
Mario Bros.: Good luck killing anyone who knows how to tech.
Spear Pillar: Damaging distractions, reverse controls.
Temple: Way too big, same problems as New Pork City and Mario Bros.
Big Blue: Movement is too fast.
Bridge of Eldin: Way too big, walk off, when there's a gap in the middle it'll just be a huge campfest.

I made more stages legal than a lot of people, mostly because I'd like to try them out in tournament to see if they'll be too much of a problem. I'd also like to eventually have a few preselected custom stages on the counterpick list.

 

[Deleted member]

Seriously, I may be sounding like a broken record, but this arguing is futile and is destroying the very purpose of the variety of stages Brawl has to offer. We shouldn't be banning stages unless there is a CLEAR reason to do so. Wario Ware, lets ban it because some people are given stars. Lets ban New Pork City because it is huge. Lets Ban skyworld because of the meteor smash abuse and tether recovery folks getting screwed. But when we start arguing about inane factors that could or could not break this game like DDD's chain throw, then I think we are crossing a line that shouldn't be crossed. We should test it out in tournies before we go on banning them. Look, some suggested banning Norfair, but after playing it extensively, the very fact is you can shield the lava wave or air dodge and not be penalized. Banning Bridge of Eldin doesn't make sense either since the "unpredictable" boars that charge across are easily dodged not to mention when they actually hit you, there is barely any knock back. Lets just chill for a bit and play some tournies with everything allowed except for the OBVIOUS outliers. Neutrals are easy enough to decide on. But come on fellas. You guys are just going too far.

Indeed, I have previously suggested (On another thread, mind you) that Shadow Moses be banned in singles, okay in doubles.

 

[tense]

I hate all this talk of banning stuff. If a stage is unfair to some characters, then that's a weakness for that character. Just because some stages completely change how you battle doesn't mean you shouldn't play them, just that you have to actually learn how to fight on them. If people spent as much time working on learning how to handle "complicated" stages and how to deal with the randomness of items as they do figuring out ATs, then nothing would be banned.

 

[nitro-blazer]

Lets hit up a sensitive subject.

Rumble falls.

Now, it may just be because it has the best music in the game, but I don't think it should be outright banned.

Lets look at it's problems.

-Scrolling.
-Solid walls allow for 'infinites'
-At higher percents, you can camp the sides with throws. ('Walk-off' edges)

Scrolling. Yeah, it scrolls. It doesn't move to fast, and it's always a constant speed, unless it says 'speed up', in which case it goes slightly faster. Whenever playing this stage I've noticed that I never die cause of the scroll. It never really moves that fast.

Now, the solid walls. This CAN equal a free kill. However, the majority of infinites have you die after, or at the same time as your opponent. So in essence, it's the same as a Bowser / Kirby / Dededecide. It can't be used to infinite indefinitely.

Now, I doubt many people have acutally played this stage. There are NO walkoffs. I tested it in training mode. I also rolled to the far edge of them, and 'camped with backthrows' It took up until really, really high percents to kill with various characters back or forward throws. And this is with computer DI. Even then, the scrolling makes it so you can't camp indefinitely, even at high percents.

Now, the last problem is the spikes. However, I'm relating them to Jungle Japes Klaptrap, which is ALWAYS a free kill. The spikes are always in the same place, meaning they're easy to avoid.

It doesn't seem like as much of a bannable stage in my opinion.

 

[Zero Beat]

And it's why FD and Battlefield were the only stages played at all, right? Oh wait! Tehre were stages that 'have outside influences' that were in Melee. They're called Counterpicks. Looking at you, Brinstar, Mute City. Hell, even pokemon stadium if you want to get picky.

Excuse me, I'm only talking about tournament play here. I play all those stages you mentioned with my friends or with the computer for fun.

Well, I'm probably biased, but I find myself both enjoying, and doing better on the stages with stage hazards. Why? I don't know, I just do. Fact is, if I counterpick someone on say, Norfair, and I lose to a stage hazard, well that's jusy my bad luck. Had I known player X was as good on that stage, I would have picked another one.

I usually pick random(Unless I want to prove to someone that I couldn't control my death and they just got lucky), but yes, you are biased. My favorite stage is Pokemon Stadium1(Heck I play with items on medium). Not in a tourny though.

To me, the only 'honour' in a videogame is winning by not doing something that someone has no chance of excaping (IE, the posibility of an unbreakable chainthrow, or unplugging someones controller.) Anything else is fair game.

Don't play innocent, winning because the big fish in the Ice Climbers level ate me, does not prove you're better than me. However, I usually ignore all this when I'm playing for fun with my friends unless things get serious, like personal challenges. Then they need to be taught a lesson, or I need to be taught one.

Oh and Zero, the quote in your sig is rather an interesting choice by someone who seems to have a closed mind on stage choices.

Either you're not paying close attention because you're too focused on the "HA! Got him!" Or you did not see me mentioning money. And what do you GENERALLY assume when the topic of money is brought up in Smash Bros? Tournaments. And if it's my fault I didn't make it clear enough that I was only referring tournaments when it came to clean stages, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. But you knew that, didn't you? Perhaps I should have initially showed my entire perspective on stages, not just the latter.

And to a degree, yes you can have competitive matches on stages like Brinstar and that Super Mario Sunshine map, as well as a couple of others. Don't tell me there aren't exceptions though.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Eh. I think banning stages is dumb. They were put in the game, so why should we get rid of them? These 'random' mini-games in Wario Ware really aren't that random. Super Stars are rarely given out and I've never seen one given when more than one person cleared the mini-game.

I can understand some things, such as the fish in the Ice Climbers stage being annoying, but doesn't that just mean you shouldn't spend so much time in the bottom area? The lava in Norfair is slow moving, and easy to dodge. The only stage where I can see a banning justly occurring is Spear Pillar because it skews the controls, without warning, and without telling you in what way they were changed.

 

[nitro-blazer]

Let's say you're in the finals and it's down to you and me.(You and your opponent only have one stock)

However, I've got 129%(that you've worked so hard to build up) and you just spawned with 0%. The prize is huge, and you've got it in the bag. Assuming that by default, you SHOULD win this one on one, give me your success rate if we were on Final Destination, and if we were on Pikman's world or whatever that stupid green place is(Olimar's stage). For the sake of playing more levels, you'd really risk your 'I can almost taste you' prize money? I think not.

Distant planet?

If you can force them to go into the bulborbs mouth, you deserve the win. It's much harder to get them to go in that thing than it is to come back from 129% to 0%. There is no way Distant planet should be banned. It's a great stage and the hazards is the easiest thing to avoid in the game.

 

[Devildigimon]

This what I'm using for the tournaments I run:


Banned Stages:
* Mushromy Kingdom - impossible to k.o up, slow moving side scroller (not really a "big" issue. but due to all the multi level stage terrains it's just not tourney worthy)
* Frigate Orphen - stage flippy flop (delays flow of match)
* Norfair - see ssbm "Brinstar"
* Pirate Ship - yes the stage hazards (like enemy ship projectiles) can be avoided, but after "the storm" part in the stage it turns into wind mode from Pokemon Stadium 2 (see Pokemon Stadium 2 for details)
* Rumble Falls - see ssbm "Ice Climbers Mountain"
* Pokemon Stadium 2 - during wind mode Samus can't be touched and u can't fast fall at regular speed, during electric mode u can't edge hog, icy mode movement is altered, cool stage just not tournament able
* Spear Pillar - stage has too many hazards some at high levels, controller confusion, stage flippy flop (delays flow of match
* Distant Planet - items stage (possible weapon use), other than that I would have made this a counter pick stage
* Wario Ware - as much as I like "Ashley's Song", this stage must be banned...too many terrain switches, gimmicks and task need to be completed, if there was an option to turn that off I'd make this a default stage
* New York City - see temple
* Summit -
* 75M - see mario bros. but not as many stage hazards, and terrains are super small
* Mario Bros. - super hard to k.o on this stage (especially to k.o "up") , super consistent stage hazards, to be honest this stage is pretty ****ing stupid
* Flat Zone 2 - see ssbm "flat zone"
* Pictochat - terrain changes too often, mid stage hazards, some parts characters are locked in area may delay the game, I don't really like this stage too much
* Temple - see ssbm
* Yoshi's Island (Super Mario World will be abbreviated SMW for now on) - see ssbm
* Green Greens - items stage (regain health and possible weapon use), that is the only thing I saw wrong with this stage, I mean the bombs u can completely avoid, or use them for set ups vs. your opponent
* Big Blue - see ssbm
* Brinstar - see ssbm
* Port Town Aero Drive - mid damage stage hazards, stage terrain changes too often, small platforms, huge pot hole, serious camping (turtling), but it does look cool
* Shadow Moses Island - before walls are removed only available k.o is "Up" and some characters have horrible "u-smashes", D.D.D chain grab vs. big opponents next to wall super hard to escape (**** near can't), to be honest if those walls weren't there I'd make this a default stage
* Hannenbow - no tether recovery
* Custom Stages

Default Random Stages (10):
* Battle Field - the 2nd most basic stage in the game, no issues no worries
* Final Destination - the most basic stage in the game, no issues no worries
* Delfino Plaza - see castle siege
* Luigi's Mansion - Fun stage, no hazards, breakable terrain to match final destination,
* Yoshi's Island - see battle field
* Lylat Cruise - see battle field
* Smashville - see battle field
* Castle Siege - solid stage, terrain switch is similar to Delfino Plaza
* Jungle Japes - I find absolutely nothing wrong with this stage
* Pokemon Stadium - see ssbm

Available for counter pick:
* Mario Circuit - hazards are pretty easy to avoid
* Halbred - see mario circuit
* Sky World - breakable terrain turns into fall through platforms, not a problem, but u could get easy k.o off a bounce if in lower part of the level
* Corneria - low damage stage hazards
* Onett - see corneria
* Rainbow Cruise - very slow multi directional scrolling stage, no stage hazards
* Bridge Of Eldin - see mario circuit
* Green Hill Zone - breakable terrain, easy to avoid stage hazards

In free for all (4v4) NO STAGE SHOULD BE BANNED. AND THE ONLY ITEM THAT SHOULD BE ALLOWED (IF AT ALL) IS SMASH BALL (TO PERFORM FINAL SMASH...SINCE IT IS PART OF THEIR MOVE LIST).

This is just my opinion

 

[Rokk141]

I know most people are not completely ban-happy. But some people are, as we can see with Zero Beat. My post was directed at people with his mindset where only FD and Battlefield should be played.

Since you're forgetting that it's easier said than done, then I'll play that game too.

Let's say you're in the finals and it's down to you and me.(You and your opponent only have one stock)

However, I've got 129%(that you've worked so hard to build up) and you just spawned with 0%. The prize is huge, and you've got it in the bag. Assuming that by default, you SHOULD win this one on one, give me your success rate if we were on Final Destination, and if we were on Pikman's world or whatever that stupid green place is(Olimar's stage). For the sake of playing more levels, you'd really risk your 'I can almost taste you' prize money? I think not.

Level the terrain to even ground, and let the better player win the prize, not the guy that wins by chance. Would you rather win with honor or by chance? I guess self fulfillment depends on the person.(Last two sentences were moot, I know, but it may apply to you, maybe)

What's going to kill me in Distant Planet? I've never been killed by the animal unless I'm trying to be. It's incredibly difficult to force your opponent into a position to be killed by it, and I would view that as a pretty fine display of skill. The water on the left isn't going to kill me, since I can just grab the edge as I'm falling. I suppose you could try and camp the left walk-off, but it's not that difficult to avoid that. There's no game-breaking chance that happens at Distant Planet.

We're all talking about a tournament setting, btw. None of us are talking stage bans for friendly play.

 

[Zero Beat]

None of us are talking stage bans for friendly play.

He sure was talking about friendlies though. Let me find it....

Well, I'm probably biased, but I find myself both enjoying, and doing better on the stages with stage hazards. Why? I don't know, I just do.

Yes, you can talk all you want about including hazard-like stages, but I bet you wouldn't want to lose the price money for the sake of including them, now would you? Is it really soooooooooooo hard to play on FD and Battlefield? Really..is it? And it's only a tourny. When you get to your house, and invite your friends, you can decide upon all you want.

 

[SkylerOcon]

It also seems like we're immediately axing half the stages just because they have some sort of hazard in them. If you want my opinion the only four stages that should be banned are Mario Bros. (you can K.O. using turtle shells WAY to easily in this level), Spear Pillar (Control switching is lame), 75m (To big, springs appear out of nowhere, and the fire things are just... annoying), and Hyrule Temple (it's to big).

Most other stages have hazards, but are easily dodged. Distant Planet... well, as everybody else has been saying its hard to be knocked into the creature's mouth. So no worries here.

 

[Devildigimon]

But let's say on Distant planet stage u are Ganon and u break that leaf thingy and now u have an item to throw at your opponent. Ganon doesn't have any projectile and u win the tournament. Because u didn't physically hit him. So how is that fair? Last time I checked items are turned off for a reason...LMAO!

 

[SkylerOcon]

Last time I checked spelling exists for a reason.

And uhh... you hit him. With an item. Throwing takes skill. Item use takes skill. Playing Brawl takes skill. Haven't you noticed how everything is relating back to skill?!

That's perfectly fair. Don't cry because you couldn't dodge something.

 

[Super Drybones]

I'm still not sure if Halberd should be counterpick. It may be neutral.
The "events" are very easy to avoid and only occur about ever two minutes.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Jungle Japes was counterpick in melee I believe. We should be playing it until enough evidence emerges to warrant a ban.

Are you kidding me? I'm sorry, but your dislike of a stage is not grounds of its banning. Learn to play on a stage you don't like; it's not going to be banned because of your personal tastes.

To give an advantage to a playstyle is what makes something counterpick-able. You will know you're playing on the stage, so you can take advantage of it. If the walk-offs become too much of an issue--after tournament play, not just speculation--then maybe a ban will be justified.

Luigi's Mansion is really easy to destroy. I don't really see it being banned for that reason.

just to get this out of the way first, yes- i AM trigger happy with the banning, that's just who i am though, im a pretty caucious person i guess (i tend to have the mentality of "i better overprepare first so i never get screwed over"). Basically my mentallity is that we SHOULD test the stages, but not to prove that the stage should be banned, but because it should be proven that it doesn't deserve ban. Best example of this, at least for me, is Norfair. Norfair was probably the 1st stage i thought "banned" at. Then i tested it and found out that the wave isn't as deadly as the dojo made it seem and now i find it perfectly legal for CP. Honestly, i think that extensive testing should be done with the idea that people should look for ways to exploit the stage and then decide to how great a degree that exploit centralizes the game. If we keep looking for ways to exploit it then we'll naturally find ways to counter. Just dont think that I am declaring a stage as bannable(sp?) and simply ignoring it from testing.

i was fine with JJ in melee, the problem is that now (because of swimming) there is actually a delay before you can swim again, thus, if you hit the water on the left side i'd say between 80 and 90 percent of the time you are guaranteed dead. Of course you can argue that it is your fault you chose a character that fastfalls or has a slow jump, but from what ive tried, falling off the far left is always a kill and depending on the % (ie, if your character starts to flop around in the water) it's a kill from the middle left.

the IC stage can be counterpick, but im not found of the gravity change on the stage. Of all the ones i put on my list, this one was the most subjective (honestly, i haven't played it enough to objectively decide)

Bridge of Eldin: this stage is one of the worst stages for competitive play imo. arguing that projectiles give an advantage is fine, but the problem is that you can ONLY use projectiles, try to get close and boom! dead or it'll just cause for a stall. If half of a stage is about stalls....does it really deserve tourney play? not in my mind at least

Luigi Mansion is also arguably CP, but i do warn that if the time limit remains at 8 minutes, you will see a lot of matches going above 10 minutes (last time i did a 3 stock game with my friend, usually about 4:30 in length, lasted 13 minutes on Luigi's mansion.

Lets hit up a sensitive subject.

Rumble falls.

Now, it may just be because it has the best music in the game, but I don't think it should be outright banned.

Lets look at it's problems.

-Scrolling.
-Solid walls allow for 'infinites'
-At higher percents, you can camp the sides with throws. ('Walk-off' edges)

Scrolling. Yeah, it scrolls. It doesn't move to fast, and it's always a constant speed, unless it says 'speed up', in which case it goes slightly faster. Whenever playing this stage I've noticed that I never die cause of the scroll. It never really moves that fast.

Now, the solid walls. This CAN equal a free kill. However, the majority of infinites have you die after, or at the same time as your opponent. So in essence, it's the same as a Bowser / Kirby / Dededecide. It can't be used to infinite indefinitely.

Now, I doubt many people have acutally played this stage. There are NO walkoffs. I tested it in training mode. I also rolled to the far edge of them, and 'camped with backthrows' It took up until really, really high percents to kill with various characters back or forward throws. And this is with computer DI. Even then, the scrolling makes it so you can't camp indefinitely, even at high percents.

Now, the last problem is the spikes. However, I'm relating them to Jungle Japes Klaptrap, which is ALWAYS a free kill. The spikes are always in the same place, meaning they're easy to avoid.

It doesn't seem like as much of a bannable stage in my opinion.

klaptrap actually doesn't kill on the first hit if pit is at 0%, but you can't get up in time to avoid the second hit, which IS a kill. The spikes are one issue, the scrolling is another, and last but not least, the platforms are another. IMO the spikes are more similar to norfair's lava in that you try to hit your opponent into them. Camping the edges is pretty hard due to the stages constant need to scroll up, a little horizontally, and force you into narrow passages. The big problem is that, at least to me, it makes the stage a giant stall until you need to go into that one part where everything is basically funneled into the middle, then it's another long wait until that part of the stage returns (about every 2 minutes after the first minute iirc).

-NZA, yes im big on banning stuff initially, and then proving that it doesn't deserve ban (like what nitro-blazer is doing about RF).

 

[Devildigimon]

Last time I checked spelling exists for a reason.

And uhh... you hit him. With an item. Throwing takes skill. Item use takes skill. Playing Brawl takes skill. Haven't you noticed how everything is relating back to skill?!

That's perfectly fair. Don't cry because you couldn't dodge something.

No items = No items

End of discussion!!!

And yea...LOL, spelling does exist for a reason: So I can't type such an awesome reply like I just did son. I'm not the type to argue with people online...so I'm going to leave it at that!

Have a nice day!

 

[betterthanbonds9]

It also seems like we're immediately axing half the stages just because they have some sort of hazard in them. If you want my opinion the only four stages that should be banned are Mario Bros. (you can K.O. using turtle shells WAY to easily in this level), Spear Pillar (Control switching is lame), 75m (To big, springs appear out of nowhere, and the fire things are just... annoying), and Hyrule Temple (it's to big).

Most other stages have hazards, but are easily dodged. Distant Planet... well, as everybody else has been saying its hard to be knocked into the creature's mouth. So no worries here.

mario bros, spear pillar, hyrule, new pork (same reason as hyrule PLUS the chimera), 75m, flat zone 2, warioware, pictochat, and big blue are the one I'm almost positive will be banned, prettymuch any other one i feel has an argument for CP

But let's say on Distant planet stage u are Ganon and u break that leaf thingy and now u have an item to throw at your opponent. Ganon doesn't have any projectile and u win the tournament. Because u didn't physically hit him. So how is that fair? Last time I checked items are turned off for a reason...LMAO!

are you kidding? I thought i was nitpicky, but have you SEEN those projectiles? if you manage to win because of the knockback from that, good job. BTW, same thing applies to green greens and the apples. If anything, you just proved why distant planet should be a counterpick. In no way do those tablets in any way centralize the game on distant planet because: 1. it takes time to knock them off 2. using them is very situational (5% damage, little to no knockback, that's gamebreaking right there >_>)

 

[SkylerOcon]

No items = no items.

No items, however, does not equal no things from Distant Planet that you can use to throw at people. You focused more on trying to make me look dumb than actually disproving me D=

And with Jungle Japes. Can somebody clarify the problem with that for me? Apparently a Klaptrap can kill Pit easily?

 

[Grmo]

Stage hazards not= ban worthy. Frigate Orpheon for example is a mostly neutral stage. It does flip but it's so minor that's hardly worth banning. Brinstar was counterpick material in Melee, why not now? Especially considering that there's a lot more air time so the acid is easier to avoid. Hanenbow isn't worth banning, there are no stage distractions at all. Distant Planet is definitely not worth banning. It's not neutral, but definitely not bannable. Pirate Ship's hazards have 2-3 second startup and they're easy to avoid. You have to suck to get hit by a bomb. People seem to have fallen into this attitude of "if there are hazards, it's banned", which is just wrong, because there are tons of things that are way too easy to avoid, don't interrupt gameplay the way Warioware does, and good players can use the stage to their advantage. Would you ban Corneria in Melee because it has lasers? Of course not. So why would you try banning Distant Planet? The Bulborb is so far down that if you're spiked that far down you're probably dead anyway.

edit: actually I'm wrong, it's not THAT far down. However, it's kinda hard to go down there accidentally. And even if you are spiked down there, chances are you're dead.

 

[Devildigimon]

Well it's pretty obvious that NO ONE is going to come to an understanding in this thread people have their opinions and who really decides the official rules anyway, right? I think it all comes down to the agreement that u and your circle of friends decide on. And if there is a tournament, then u just have to come to an understand between more people.

Skyler: I honestly don't care if I tried to make u look stupid or not. It wasn't my intention that's just how I talk. However, u addressing my spelling makes u look stupid anyways, considering this is a forum and people always take shortcuts in typing...it's common practice now.

About distant planet and green greens:

If u are going to ban items u ban it's stage possibilities too. I don't care how minimal or whatever it is. Anything that alters a characters move set (giving a character a projectile that shouldn't have one) in tournament is ban worthy...in my opinion.

Some tournaments Brinstar was banned in SSBB and some it wasn't. Lava prevents spike and creates small fighting terrain.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

He sure was talking about friendlies though. Let me find it....


Yes, you can talk all you want about including hazard-like stages, but I bet you wouldn't want to lose the price money for the sake of including them, now would you? Is it really soooooooooooo hard to play on FD and Battlefield? Really..is it? And it's only a tourny. When you get to your house, and invite your friends, you can decide upon all you want.

Tournaments should be fun, too. The reason why you decide to get good at SSBB in the first place is because you enjoy it, right?

And yes, there will be times when you lose because of the stage. But your opponent gets those as well.

Let me use poker as an analogy. In poker, you obviously have a large amount of randomness inherit in the game. And yes, it means that sometimes you get skeeted. It happens. However, professional poker players make it all the way through huge tournaments to a table almost always populated entirely by pros. In a game with such huge random chance, how is it that the professionals do well so consistently? It's because their overriding skill usually beats any lucky breaks the weaker players get. They know how the randomness works better than other players, and use that to their advantage. What the people in this thread are suggesting is not even anywhere near this amount of randomness.

Variance in stages increases the learning curve of the tournament scene, which is always a good thing. It creates more unique interesting situations. Even if we do view randomness as an inherently negative thing on the tournament scene, the variance provided by opening up the available choices enriches the tournament scene far more than it detracts.

If you really want just a pure test of narrow skill, then why don't we just force people to play Marth on FD? Every single time, Marth FD mirror match. The same reason why you think this is stupid is why I think automatically banning any stage with any hint of randomness is silly. Gimpable stages, warioware, rumble falls, sure. I'm fine with that. But let's not warp the tournament scene so far from the original game so as to be unrecognizable to other players.

 

[LoOshKiN]

But let's say on Distant planet stage u are Ganon and u break that leaf thingy and now u have an item to throw at your opponent. Ganon doesn't have any projectile and u win the tournament. Because u didn't physically hit him. So how is that fair? Last time I checked items are turned off for a reason...LMAO!

It's fair because Ganon has a long range weapon now. I could say that anyone with a long range weapon (lasers, arrows etc) who uses them against a character that doesn't have any projectiles isn't fair, but I won't.

See the fault in your arguement? Wait actually, I think you used to many pronouns Doesn't matter though. I don't know what you're saying. I'm Ganon and I get the item and win the tournament with it but before that you say Ganon doesn't have any projectile. Whatever.

I don't like your list either, I mean no offense just IMO. Ask and I'll tell you why but I'm too lazy at the moment.

Banning stages to To MAKE THINGS FAIR in any way is just dumb. Think about it. I think it's a shame that most people agree that FD is a fair map to play on. The thing is, some characters benefit from platforms and a flat level is not beneficial to them. There isn't a completely fair map.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Banning stages to To MAKE THINGS FAIR in any way is just dumb. Think about it. I think it's a shame that most people agree that FD is a fair map to play on. The thing is, some characters benefit from platforms and a flat level is not beneficial to them. There isn't a completely fair map.

i dont conclude that FD and battlefield are perfectly fair, nothing is perfectly fair. Simply put, nobody judges the stages in terms of how fair they are, people look for how unfair something is. Think about it, you look for a strategy your opponent can use against you, you almost never look for something that you both can do equally or close to equally well. People inherently dont look for the similarities, they look for the advantage. So FD and battlefield aren't necesarilly "fair", but it does allow for some of the most "fair" gameplay instead of the unfair ability given from a stage like warioware.

-assuming you were talking about my list, frankly, i dont like it either. I like it as a guideline for now, with some intricacies to determine the validity of the bans i have on there. Until some advanced technique appears for some character, im pretty sure that the stages i had under CP or neutral (maybe iwth the exception of halberd as neutral, but im pushing for neutral on that) will not be banned, meanwhile the a lot of the ones i have as banned will most likely become CP.

 

[Firestorm88]

Well it's pretty obvious that NO ONE is going to come to an understanding in this thread people have their opinions and who really decides the official rules anyway, right? I think it all comes down to the agreement that u and your circle of friends decide on. And if there is a tournament, then u just have to come to an understand between more people.

Skyler: I honestly don't care if I tried to make u look stupid or not. It wasn't my intention that's just how I talk. However, u addressing my spelling makes u look stupid anyways, considering this is a forum and people always take shortcuts in typing...it's common practice now.

About distant planet and green greens:

If u are going to ban items u ban it's stage possibilities too. I don't care how minimal or whatever it is. Anything that alters a characters move set (giving a character a projectile that shouldn't have one) in tournament is ban worthy...in my opinion.

Some tournaments Brinstar was banned in SSBB and some it wasn't. Lava prevents spike and creates small fighting terrain.

Smash Back Room creates the rules that 99% of tournaments follow. It's good to have rules universal in the competitive scene. Yes you look completely stupid writing in shorthand on a forum. This is a forum, not MSN or AIM. If you want to be taken seriously, take the time to type coherently. I couldn't even understand that post concerning Ganondorf and projectiles.

mario bros, spear pillar, hyrule, new pork (same reason as hyrule PLUS the chimera), 75m, flat zone 2, warioware, pictochat, and big blue are the one I'm almost positive will be banned, prettymuch any other one i feel has an argument for CP

Pictochat actually probably won't be banned. I thought that when the stage was first revealed but it's actually pretty tame. Play on it some more!

This what I'm using for the tournaments I run:
long list

You have some stages banned for the reason "see melee" but they weren't banned in Melee. Also, even though 4v4 (I assume you mean FFA?) isn't a real competitive setting, don't leave only Smash Balls on as that really, really makes it overpowered. You need more items to balance out the frequency of the Smash Ball appearing.

Excuse me, I'm only talking about tournament play here. I play all those stages you mentioned with my friends or with the computer for fun.

The stages he listed are all tournament stages. They are counter-picks.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Pictochat actually probably won't be banned. I thought that when the stage was first revealed but it's actually pretty tame. Play on it some more!

really?! when i played it i found that i was constantly fighting the stage to fight my friend (then again, i was marth, he was ike, so there weren't any projectiles). If pictochat becomes CP, then good for it, but it is true that i need to look at the effects of projectiles there more i guess.

of all the stages i wish that spear pillar were legal, i just love that stage. Is it possible to make spear pillar CP if palkia isn't in the background? dialga can slow time, so what? both characters experience it and the worse thing i can think of otherwise is the lasers, but you can shield those or simply grab a ledge, it's easy to dodge it like norfair's lava shots that come from the background. Only other issue i can see is that you can do basically what fox could do on temple in melee, start off shooting a laser, run around for 8 minutes and win by default....but i have no idea how possible that is with a stage that does a good job of stopping people from camping.

 

[Firestorm88]

But unlike Mushroomy Kingdom (which I think will be banned on both versions) it takes a while before you find out which Pokemon is in the background. Cresselia and Palkia are both broken. In my opinion, so is Dialga. Remember that they can both break out of the background without warning and hit basically the entire top of the stage at once without warning.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

But unlike Mushroomy Kingdom (which I think will be banned on both versions) it takes a while before you find out which Pokemon is in the background. Cresselia and Palkia are both broken. In my opinion, so is Dialga. Remember that they can both break out of the background without warning and hit basically the entire top of the stage at once without warning.

i know what im saying here is pretty useless, but i feel that stage is too awesome

it doesn't take awhile to figure out who is who. Cresselia doesn't change the tiles at all, they are grey. Dialga is blue. Palkia is a VERY obvious pink. Of the 3, Palkia is the only one that alters control (we allow the low gravity in stadium2, why not here) the problem with palkia is that it alters your controls, which is beyond annoying.

How is cresselia broken?
Easy to dodge
doesn't affect anything besides the stage and lasers (so nothing special)

and no, dialga/palkia dont hit the entire top and they also dont give no warning (double negative is appropriate in this case grammer nazis). First there's that yellow flash, then they jump out, THEN they make that movement and scream, then they run back into the background. Super easy to airdodge or spot dodge if they jump right at you, also super easy to simply avoid in the first place.

here's how i see it, cresselia is no worse than the pirate ship or halberd (cressy does attack in a pattern, you know?); dialga is no worse than lylat with the tilting of the stage mixed with halberd from the lasers. As long as the tiles aren't pink, the stage should be CP, is it really that hard to restart the match at worst 2 times just to get a match?