Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Blacknight99923]

and that is why DMG is in the BBR and should be.

 

[Gnes]

Distant Planet basically is a twisted version of Cat and Mouse: the Mouse has to catch the Cat. Outdoors. With trees and sh** in the way. GG Mouse... GG

I love you Bobby lmao

 

[Life]

Pellets solve literally everything DMG posted.

 

[DMG]

Except, pellets don't really solve anything? That's like saying if everyone had medium time spawned bananas, they could stop circle camping on Hanenbow.

 

[UberMario]

Not quite the pellets, but the rain does appear frequently enough to prevent walkoff abuse, and it goes under the platform aswell, taking out the camping spot that is usually the target of people against the stage's legality. I don't really see anything wrong with Distant Planet, to be honest. The stage design doesn't have anything game-breaking, especially with the rain being a factor.

Distant Planet: Probably should be banned. Camping exploits on this stage are a bit heavy:

It's about as strong as it is on Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege, but no one complains about those stages, because [in all three cases] those are TEMPORARY camping spots. The slope makes it easier for most characters to approach aswell, in comparison with a flat walk off like in the two starters I mentioned.

take Sonic for example. Get a lead on someone, and go to the lower end of the walkoff. If someone approaches you from the left, spin jump to the right and get on grass platform.

I start dashing on the slope, do a single hop, and start dashing again on the green platform. If I was already in the air, I can sacrifice a mid-air jump to get on the platform without using a recovery move.

If they go off the grass platform on the right side and come down towards the walkoff edge, run up the walkoff.

What's the point, it doesn't take much common sense to understand that you aren't going to outrun the fastest character in the game, they'd get away with running that way on pretty much every stage until they reach an edge, you should try to force him away from the left side of the stage here so that he is left with few options. Besides, I'm putting myself at an unnecessary risk when he could either safely run when I approach from the right, or attack, as I'm kept in the air for a bit.

If you are at the top of the walkoff and they come, spin jump over them (easier to get away with this because you already start at a higher vertical position than them due to the slope).

If I can't hear it, I can still chase them because unless I'm taking my time while he charges, he won't be moving that overwhelmingly fast.

If they are trying to stop you from going over them from where you are at the top of the walkoff, you now have a slope to run down (most characters if they are trying to stop Sonic from going over them, have to go airborne with a full jump or more to do so. Doing this allows you to easily go under them, even if they fastfall)

This, of course, implies that I either jump before he does [if he does at all], or that I don't see him starting to come back to earth and keep holding the jump button while he's level with me.

From the grass platform, you can maneuver back over it, under it to the slope, under it back to the platform, etc.

Going underneath to the slope would not be one of Sonic's better ideas if the opponent knows what they are doing, it's better to play mindgames with his UpB while underneath. I've also yet to see a Sonic successfully stall out a match at Distant Planet against anyone decent.

Or take Wario: I can start from the top of the walkoff, jump and Bike to reach a position nothing but maybe a Sonic Spring or a Pikachu thunder could reach me,

You can't stay in the air forever.

while having the flexibility to maneuver completely around to my liking.

With my opponent underneath me, who can potentially be on the ground and may be able to keep pace and determine where I'll end up because they can turn faster on the ground.

I can go to the right, not touch the ground, go past the grass platform completely, pass by the edge and choose to grab it or keep going,

What is the other player doing while this is going on? Updating his twitter about what button he's going to press next? Unless he's following your exact path, he'll at least be close enough to create a bit of spacing pressure.

have the option to grab the slope edge or go onto the slope without grabbing it OR going through the bottom of the grass platform OR deciding to go back and grab that grass platform edge, etc.

Again, this assumes that the opponent is going to do NOTHING about it. Seriously, if they're going toward the ledge, there's only so many things they're going to do. If you were trying at all to keep up with them, you should be able to at least get in an projectile attack or force them to stop and fight back, either if you tried to intercept underneath, or stayed on-or-above the grass platform.

If my opponent wants to stop most of those options, and heads towards the grass platform while I am up in the air I also have the option of going back to the top of the slope. It's easier for me to reach there than my opponent because the top of the slope is at a noticeably higher position than the grass platform.

Why are you implying that you wasted your jumps to catch Wario at that height? Why not just wait for him on the ground, he has to return at some point. Catching him in the air isn't going to be effective if he jumped at the top of the slope. It's better to approach on the ground and force a reaction of some kind.

Another thing that benefits me is that if you start on the grass platform, and want to chase me to the slope, you HAVE to go airborne in some way or form to get off the platform and get towards the slope.

Or I could run off, fastfall, and then start a dash after dropping down a height that is around the size of Bowser's.

Going into the air, where Wario moves faster horizontally than 95% of the cast, means you can't use a fast run or dash to keep up with me. This "forced" air entry is a big reason why he's extremely gay on Norfair (and to a lesser extent Brinstar): how can you catch a character who is almost guaranteed to be faster than you in the air, if you have to go into the air to traverse from platform to platform or from section to section? There's no room for running faster than I move, so you are forced to play my game and come into the air for long enough to be outmaneuvered over and over.

The difference is that it only takes one short-hop's worth of air time to otherwise traverse the stage design on the ground. On Brinstar and Norfair, you're forced to do larger jumps than that.

About the rain: the rain as far as camping is concerned is completely double edged. I laugh at the people who see the rain as something that completely destroys camping the slope, because they tend to also miss the fact that the rain takes away a lot of offensive options to stop it.

To stop what? If the rain destroys the camping spot, they no longer need to offensively go toward the camping spot and possibly get walkoff ko'd. They also have the advantage of being able to attack the opponent as they are sliding toward them in the current, in the air coming back to the stage. You gain more offensive, practical options when the rain comes than when it doesn't, not the other way around.

Say I'm on the slope, the rain comes blah blah blah, so I fall to the slope edge. Now what? How can you reach me if I decide to stay on the edge for as long as possible?

I grab the ledge first, the worst thing that could happen if I time my ledge-grab invincibility refreshing right is that I'll have to jump in order to intercept you if you decide to jump out of the current. Otherwise, you'd just be falling right into my path where I could pretty much back-air you out of my ledge grab. The current gives you PLENTY of warning, so it'd be my fault for not trying to use it to my advantage if I let you get swept to the ledge.

I'm not talking about constantly regrabbing the edge either wasting LG's, just grab it 1-2 times and sit there. Going the slope way would be dangerous for a lot of characters. You can't sit on the slope and throw projectiles down. You could go off the grass platform right side and move through the air to the slope edge, but that still allows the person on the edge to move up to the grass platform with no real resistance on your part (that and now you're under the grass platform trying to get somewhere).

Again, the player should see the rain coming (I think there are 8-10 seconds of warning before it starts affecting the characters) and go to the ledge to counter their foe. Getting from the right edge to the slope isn't that hard too, and most characters can recover through the platform from the right edge just fine. So unless they have a laggy recovery (i.e. Ike), their opponent isn't going to get that far away.

Distant Planet basically is a twisted version of Cat and Mouse: the Mouse has to catch the Cat. Outdoors. With trees and sh** in the way. GG Mouse... GG

That's a poor metaphor, why the heck would someone be suicidal when they have the advantage of evasiveness? [In general]

 

[DMG]

Like I elaborated earlier, the rain is a double edged sword. It stops you from camping that spot, but it ALSO stops your opponent from taking advantage of you being on the edge through traveling to the slope and using a projectile/timely attack. The whole purpose of going under that spot is to avoid you. Getting to the edge and having the rain prevent most reasonable possitilities of safely reaching the person who is running from you is not much different from being on the slope near that spot anyways.

Think about it like this: 2 people on distant planet. The rain is not pouring, and it won't for a bit. You notice he's camping in that spot on the slope near the end, under the grass platform. You are somewhere near the middle of the grass platform, maybe on a leaf maybe not you can decide. Now, you want to stop him of course. What are the most reasonable looking ways to do so?

1. Move to the left, towards him and the slope.

2. Go to the right, fall off the edge of the grass platform, and approach the edge of the slope through the air under the grass platform.


The first idea sounds good. If you move towards the slope, you can try to limit his ability to go back up the slope, and force him to go under the grass platform if he wants to escape. You can also bait him by going left and staying on the grass platform while he jumps away, and then follow him wherever he goes. The second idea, well it's not inherently bad, but it does give the person on the slope quite a bit of time to see you coming towards him from that direction. It can also be dangerous for characters who aren't so good at recovering or so good offstage because this path takes you directly through the air towards him instead of staying on the ground primarily. Overall, the 1st option is safer, faster, and limits the options of the opponent more than the second option.

Now, throw in the rain. Instead of being on the slope, the camper is simply relocated a few feet to the ledge. He is still under the grass platform, still in a good position, except he's not standing he's handing on an edge. This is all that has changed specifically for him. Now, what has changed for you? Well the rain prevents option #1 from being used by most of the cast, unless you are a character that can afford to be ballsy, swept down the slope by the rain on purpose to confront the person on the edge. If you are not a character who fits that description, then basically your interaction with the slope is over at this point. Now all that is left is basically option #2. Still not a bad option, but it's a bit slow. It certainly gives the person on the edge plenty of time to position around and regrab the edge for invincibility as you get closer. He also has enough time to jump/go away from the edge and get onto the grass platform himself.

Now let's go a step further. Let's say that the person in the camping spot doesn't want to be on the edge. So the rain comes and what he does is slides off without grabbing the edge and he DJ's back into the slope, where he regains his DJ shortly before sliding off again, and he repeat this process to stay around the slope without needing to grab the edge. This isn't much different than if he sat in 1 spot near the edge of the slope, he's just forced to jump over and over (while still being under the grass platform mind you) if he wants to continue to stay in such a position. But to stop him, it would be risky to go onto the slope yourself with the rain pouring and challenge him head to head. Why? If you go to the slope, you are automatically starting higher up than he is. If you both decided to get swept away by the rain at the exact same time, he would grab the edge sooner than you and you would be in trouble. Or lets say you got bold and swept down by the rain on purpose while he's on the edge already. If he has a multi hit or lingering move, he can drop down and use that to cover the edge and you basically automatically get hit by it. If you shield, your shield goes away from being swept off an edge and you get hit.



This is what I was talking about earlier when I said the rain is a double edged sword concerning camping. Sure, it forces the camper more towards the edge, but it also prevents most approaches from the left side of the stage, which means the camper gets more time than usual as you have to maneuver around the right side, under the grass platform, and towards the edge. The rain isn't simply anti camp, it's anti placement. Which affects BOTH approaching and camping. Does it affect camping significantly enough to disturb a person from camping you? I mean, if you call being kinda forced to the edge and being put in a position that's not really much different or worse for someone who's camping or running from you, then sure the rain is a hailed godsend from Sakurai to stop pesky Wario and MK from sitting still in 1 spot.



Spacing Pressure... The thing about that is exactly as you described it. Pressure. Not a solution or a fix or something that will stop it, but simply pressure. Implied pressure in Brawl forces what? Defensive actions. What is the camper doing? Defensive Actions. What do you want to force him to do? Be forced into offensive actions. Why? Because punishing defensive actions in Brawl, even on a regular level, is much harder than punishing offensive ones. This disparity grows larger with environments and terrain that amplify the ease and strength of playing safely. Instead of maybe being able to force them into something defensive and punishing it, it sways so far that it's better to almost completely forgo that and instead getting them to use offensive options instead. Being able to force such a thing upon someone who is camping, at least in this game and certainly on stages like this, is incredibly harder than it sounds. That's a quick summary on how that plays out.

 

[-LzR-]

Good read about DP DMG. That was some real stuff. I agree that the stage is a bit heavy on the camping side.

 

[Life]

Except, pellets don't really solve anything? That's like saying if everyone had medium time spawned bananas, they could stop circle camping on Hanenbow.

There's no comparison.

Wario hanging out in the air? Throw a pellet at him. Granted, it won't be hard to dodge, but it's there nonetheless. You should be able to catch the pellet before it hits the ground, so it's unlikely to despawn. And eventually more pellets will spawn and you can have multiple pellets going at him. Wario's options are to land, avoid the pellets, or catch them and throw them away/back. Landing ends the camping and gives an approach opportunity (though admittedly one with a small window). Avoiding the pellets wastes Wario's time (while he can move fast, he can't stay airborne forever). Catching them is probably the best option Wario has, although it risks getting him hit. Throwing them back gives Wario a chance to deal damage but gives the opponent the pellet back. Throwing them away is a safer option. Holding on to them is possible, although throwing them away is probably better. None of this takes into account character-specific strategies, either. Sonic should be able to reach an air-camping Wario. Pit's got arrows. Falco goes to the walkoff and lasers. D3 gets high up and throws a minion. Snake has nikita. Lucario can fire spheres from the walkoff. Even among the lower end of the tiers, Zelda has Din's Fire (which is weak, of course, but this is low tier), Earthbounders have PKT, Link has bombs, etc. Though other characters don't have much outside pellets (Marth comes to mind).

Somebody planking the left ledge? Go to the rightmost edge, drop down, throw pellet, get back up. Alternatively, throw a pellet downwards just to the left of the camping spot (pellets bounce much like Wario bike tires). Or just deal with it like you would on any other stage (AKA the "MK-can-plank-FD" argument).

Somebody planking the right edge? Go to that one camping spot, jump if necessary, and throw a pellet. Alternatively, wait for the Bulborb and use it to approach.

Somebody camping the camping spot? Throw a pellet downwards in front of him and approach. If he shields the pellet, grab, if not, you probably just hit him. If he catches the pellet, however, that might be a problem. It might work if you wait for a second pellet, throw one upwards and another downwards timed to hit at almost the same time. (This is reminding me of the Mario Bros thread, LOL.)

Somebody camping the spot during the rain? Get far-ish up the slope, then either attack as it brings you close or short-hop once or twice right before getting in attack range to delay your approach a moment. For additional fun, throw a pellet upwards (or z-drop it, depending on your character's ability to wait) before approaching. If they're instead hanging on the left edge, see above.

To go with your hypothetical: bananas on Hanenbow give you two options. One, throw them at the camper. Not gonna work, as they move too slowly and can easily be reacted to. Two, set one in one of the places the camper has to land. This is easily countered by using an aerial or airdodge to pick up the banana right before landing.

tl;dr Pellets are awesome.

----------------------------

As a side note, I'm curious if you ever broke Norfair like you said you were going to a while back. Vids?

 

[Ghostbone]

Once again DMG the pellets give you options to attack somebody if they're camping, so they basically solve that problem.

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[Tearbear]

fun fact i beat ally and m2k in a MM on mario bros stage

 

[Xebenkeck]

^^were you using Mk or some other pocket character?

 

[Blacknight99923]

he mained the stage not the character
since he might not respond again I will summon him.

tearbear

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Can't you just catch pellets?

 

[Ghostbone]

Can't you just catch pellets?

You can catch bananas but I don't see people catching them all the time.
Same with grenades, and turnips.

The idea is just to use the pellets as a pressuring tool to help you attack.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's because in those situations you don't telegraph it as well, seems like with pellets that do 8-14% or something, and based on the fact it seems pellets need to be used when crossing it makes it a lot harder to do this as a mix-up.

Based on what DMG is saying it seems like with the distance some characters can cover it seems a lot easier from farther distances to react to it.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well I'd really like to see some matches where one player has been able to circle camp on this stage, against an opponent who knows what they're doing and is trying to use the pellets to their advantage. Since I don't see that as viable at all.

When I see that I'll agree to ban the stage, but before that this is just unproven theorycraft.

 

[Albert.]

Holy f*** it's like every smart thing that DMG says just enters the mind of some of you readers and then flutters right back out.

 

[Tesh]

I think DP would just be a hard CP timeout stage like RC, Brinstar. It could be legal, but I don't see that happening, People don't like permanent walkoffs.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@DMG: Not bad. The theorycraft seems fairly sound, but I would really like to see it in action.
@Tesh: I hate people.

 

[UberMario]

Are there people in this thread ACTIVELY vouching for Green Greens?


kill yourselves LOLLL

... oh and why do people still read BPC's stuff as if it's to be taken seriously?

BPC we get to fvcking ignore your "refutements" and **** about green greens and other ****ty stages because in the end the common perception isthat they are ****ty, uncompetitive stages

You don't get to just change the physics of the game with your pretty little walls of texts.

You also have to accept other peoples' opinions instead of just bulldozing onward with logical fallacies and biased nonsense

I bet anybody with half a brain could write a compelling and convincing convincing argument for even a stage like 75 MM to be legalized, as long as they dress up their stupid little thesis's well enough, like you do.

die in a fire LOLLL

Holy f*** it's like every smart thing that DMG says just enters the mind of some of you readers and then flutters right back out.

Have you said anything productive at all? NO

If you can talk the talk, why don't you walk the walk and prove to us how these stages suck? And don't bring up how conservative the 64 and Melee stage tournament rosters are, they're good because the former had a lot of broken stages, while the latter had even more broken stages, not to mention gravity and knockback ratios that made even more stages unviable than necessary. I'm especially curious about your basis behind Green Greens.

Also, don't think that I didn't see what you wrote to DMG about me.

The irony is absolutely KILLING me.

It's killing me too.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree, Albert has done nothing but ****-riding and ****-talking this whole thread.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Those were a couple months ago though. :/

Anyways DP, I think DMG is right about what people can do with it, and to an extent Norfair, which with Norfair I think there is a lot more proof of the circle camping/top platform to top platform camping.

 

[Ussi]

is there any recent discussion about brinstar?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

YES.

Please don't re-start it.

 

[Psychoace]

Those were a couple months ago though. :/

Anyways DP, I think DMG is right about what people can do with it, and to an extent Norfair, which with Norfair I think there is a lot more proof of the circle camping/top platform to top platform camping.

So many sonic/wario time outs at MLG lol.

 

[Ussi]

YES.

Please don't re-start it.

i just want to read it, so could you direct me to it please?

 

[-LzR-]

Click like pager 56 or so.

 

[Life]

^Posts per page = ?

 

[-LzR-]

Just start here or something http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=282864&page=50
Enjoy.

 

[Ussi]

Just start here or something http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=282864&page=50
Enjoy.

Thanks for the link.

 

[Thebest1pj]

so brinstar discuss.

 

[Akaku94]

Lol...

See previous post... there's a link to the pages of discussion there

 

[Ghostbone]

Stage Discussion has been quiet for a while...........

Let's discuss Skyworld without MK or something.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Stage spike.
Of you're better at Ukemi (have better reflexes), you have a HUGE advantage because of a non-recurrent skill.
And destroying blocks doesn't help either, that causes hitlag, hence, punish for not attacking your opponent....


Actually, I'd like to review Brinstar, but not a "MK can do stuff" overview, nor an acid mechanic overview (there's a thread for that already), but the properties of the stage itself.
Why is the stage good for certain characters?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The stage is mainly only good for certain characters because it is bad for others:

• Sharkable
• Un-even terrain + small platforms
• Lava

Those things combined are bad for ground games, and by extension, good for aerial games.

 

[Ghostbone]

Stage spike.
Of you're better at Ukemi (have better reflexes), you have a HUGE advantage because of a non-recurrent skill.
And destroying blocks doesn't help either, that causes hitlag, hence, punish for not attacking your opponent....


Actually, I'd like to review Brinstar, but not a "MK can do stuff" overview, nor an acid mechanic overview (there's a thread for that already), but the properties of the stage itself.
Why is the stage good for certain characters?

Well why shouldn't that skill be tested? It's a part of the game and that stage just tests it more than others.

Anyway Grim covered the Brinstar bit pretty well.

The platform size and layout, along with destroyable terrain, is awkward for a lot of ground based characters, while it doesn't affect aerial characters as much. (because they're generally in the air obviously)

It also allows some aerial characters to be able to pressure a lot better.

The bottom platform can be passed through, which is good for sharking.

The lava can force players to move into the air, which helps aerial characters even more.

 

[ruin`]

Poor Gnes and DMG. Trying to school these noobs about TOP of the metagame play. The only reason why MK gets some of the most free wins is because of stages like brinstar and rainbow cruise etc etc.

Btw to some scrub who said I was playing "calm or better than gnes" on brinstar is an idiot. It's easy as **** to do what I'm doing on brinstar. HOWEVER, I can't imagine how hard it is to deal with that bull**** as the opposing player.

btw this is d4ba /end name search

edit: gnes u da bess ;P

 

[Grim Tuesday]

We don't ban a stage because a character is good on it.

 

[Ghostbone]

Poor Gnes and DMG. Trying to school these noobs about TOP of the metagame play. The only reason why MK gets some of the most free wins is because of stages like brinstar and rainbow cruise etc etc.

Btw to some scrub who said I was playing "calm or better than gnes" on brinstar is an idiot. It's easy as **** to do what I'm doing on brinstar. HOWEVER, I can't imagine how hard it is to deal with that bull**** as the opposing player.

btw this is d4ba /end name search

edit: gnes u da bess ;P

lol at you calling someone else a scrub.
just lol.

I beat MK's on Brinstar, it's definitely not a free win for him.

 

[Tesh]

Ruin what makes you think Brinstar and RC are broken and not MK on Brinstar and RC? Does anyone else get "free wins" on these stages?

I don't see why we can't just make these stages unavailable for MK to CP. We already have rules specifically limiting him from doing certain things. If it improves the game overal, its all good.