Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[-LzR-]

If you can't accept Pictochat's drawings you can't accept the randomness of YI. Randomly saving a stock is acceptable but randomly damaging hazards aren't?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I explained why saving and damaging can't be compared ages ago. Both players can react to being saved, only one can react to being killed.

In regards to WarioWare, one player becoming giant and the other invincible isn't that large an advantage outside of some specific match-ups. You still have the insane amount of defensive options Brawl offers you, and the transformations don't last that long. The giant/invincible transformation is also pretty infrequent.

 

[Ghostbone]

As I said.

Both players can react and adapt to the ghosts on YI.
The key word being both here.

Edit:
Grim's a ninja

Though grim most of brawl's defensive options don't really work against an invincible opponent..

 

[Tesh]

Grim, we can't fix everything. But that is no excuse to avoid fixing the things we can. Your arguement applies to adding anything and everything back into the equation just because we can't ban moves with random elements (almost all of them).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Plus the ghosts on YI can be reasonably planned for.
It's unreasonable to expect players to keep up with everything on Picto.

No, you can definitely keep up with everything on Pictochat. It just takes a lot of effort and playing safe.

I've been a strong advocate for Yoshi's Island to be a counterpick stage for ages. I'd much rather have just about any of the "sort of neutral" stages in its place (Stadium 1, Delfino, Castle Siege).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The point isn't how difficult they are to avoid.

If I was playing as Peach, pulling a bob-omb or a stich face could win me a game I wouldn't have won otherwise.

That isn't competitive.

Both have a large impact on the game, you just notice Pictochat's randomness more because the impact is apparent much faster.

Well too bad, they have a random chance factor added to them, not anything new to fighters. It is random and uncompetitive, sure, can you reasonably do something about it? No. Can players reasonably deal with her pulling one of these or Mr. G&W trying to hit people with a 9 out of a tech chase? Yes, very much so.

 

[-LzR-]

Is random really uncompetitive? Think, G&W pulling a 9 is part of Brawl. We are seeking who is the best in Brawl. So why is it uncompetitive to pull a 9?

Har har, now flame me

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People think it is because Mr. G&W gets rewarded with a free KO off a read or Peach pulls a pretty good item like a beam sword, Bom-omb, or a Stitch face.

I don't think there is anything wrong to the point where it is worth removing, however, it does in ways have some randomness to it.

 

[Tesh]

No, you can definitely keep up with everything on Pictochat. It just takes a lot of effort and playing safe.

I've been a strong advocate for Yoshi's Island to be a counterpick stage for ages. I'd much rather have just about any of the "sort of neutral" stages in its place (Stadium 1, Delfino, Castle Siege).

So can we turn some items back on then? Since we can reasonably keep up with things popping up at random times and doing damage, protecting people and gimping people?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So can we turn some items back on then? Since we can reasonably keep up with things popping up at random times and doing damage, protecting people and gimping people?

If you know they're going to pop up in the span of eight seconds, and if half of the stage is always a safe zone during that time (with the size increasing once the most dangerous trasformations pass), it's not so bad.

 

[Tesh]

So its okay for the game to be completely ******** during the first half the match? As long as it becomes less ******** later on?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So its okay for the game to be completely ******** during the first half the match? As long as it becomes less ******** later on?

Again, you have half of a large stage as a completely safe area, and all of it quite reasonable for at least three-fourths of the time. If that's "completely ********," what other counterpick stages do you feel are too "********" to allow?

 

[Tesh]

Its not about the safe area. The entire stage is safe IF YOU ARE NOT FIGHTING SOMEONE. Yes that little part of the stage (and no its not half, the air above that ground has dangerous transformations) might be worthy of legality. But consider this Reflex. Its not just the hitboxes. Its the walls, ceilings, platforms, springs etc. that can pop up any time all over with no warning and are effective before visible.

Its also about random rewards, just like Wario Ware. You might say it takes skill to stay in the safe zone, but you get randomly punished for leaving it.

 

[-LzR-]

Picto can't suddenly kill you when you just jab. Picto also does have those safezones. When a drawing has been there for a while, try to reset the situation so you can defend the safezone and increase the chances of a transformation screwing the opponent instead of you.

 

[Tesh]

There is a safe zone for items. Being in the air means most items can't spawn directly on you. The safe zone for items is much bigger than the safe zone for pictochat. The reward still stays random.

Lets say I push someone into the hazard on japes at the right time. He gets spiked and dies. Then he does the same to me. I get spiked and die.

On pictochat you can push someone out of the safe zone, have them bounce off of 2 rockets, get combod off of spikes, gimped by that line or the face on the right side, get bounced off of a wall that randomly pops up, killed by the fence or cart or any number of random things. Then you might push your opponent out of the safe zone and....nothing happens to him.

Before you bring up GnW dittos, let me point out that this isn't Super Smash Bros Las Vegas. Yes there are random things that can't easily be removed from our competition. But that is no excuse to cram in every single other thing that dampens competition.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Which brings me to my next point: If that is enough to ban Picto, should WarioWare be banned because of the disappearing ledges and rain tranformation? Or do they not have a big enough impact?

 

[DMG]

The problem with WarioWare tends not to be the transformations, but rather the ludicrous and random rewards for passing the objective set after a transformation. Hitting my opponent into the rain is 1 thing, but being able to do that and then grow in size, heal, or turn invincible? Or both players fighting, both pass the objective (avoid the arrows, avoid the stomping foot, avoid the hammer strike to the ground, etc), and all of a sudden nothing happens for me while my opponent gets an incredible buff? That's dumb.


If Warioware was just the transformations without the rewards, it might be viable for play. Most of the stages transformations are pretty tame: chisel, avoid x feature, taunt, don't move, etc. You could make a different case for pictochat though. Warioware doesn't have any transformation that changes normal physics or extensively intrudes over normal gameplay.

 

[Tesh]

Being big isn't a reward, its a punishment. Ask Bowser mains.

Pictochat has the same problem of random awards for accomplishing the same thing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

DMG:
Getting healed is such a minor issue, it's not even worth mentioning.
Growing in size is obviously a double-edged sword (no, it isn't just a disadvantage, Tesh. It increases your weight and strength as well), and is thus balanced by default.
Invincibility lasts for exactly 12 seconds.

Outside of a few select match-ups, most characters can avoid an invincible player (yes, even while gaint [an unlikely occurrence, I'd like to add]) while taking little to no damage.

Finally, if the random rewards are an issue (like you said, one player getting nothing and the other becoming invincible), I'd say that is grounds for banning Peach's Down Special as well. Both random elements are incredibly game changing, player initiated, give both players ample time to prepare in advance/react to it when it happens, predictable timing wise.

 

[DMG]

Being big is a double edged sword, but in most situations it's a buff.


Pictochats rewards and punishments aren't based on a "success/failure" test. It's more of a "If I hit you here, and this transformation comes up, you get *****" or "If you don't place yourself in this area, you are prone to suffer at the hands of fate". Transformation-wise, there's nothing similar on WarioWare: hazards besides rain have a noticeable duration before activated. Even rain technically tells you when the stage first zooms out and shows the rain transformation background. Pictochat hazards and shapes a lot of times you can have no warning or indicator before they become active.


There's also no standardized warning for picto transformations. Warioware transformations all start off with the same warning and IIRC the exact same amount of time from warning to full transformation for each one. If Pictochat flashed for 2-3 seconds before the transformation activated, then sure you could say no Johns pay attention. Most of the time though, especially when someone is sent offstage, when the stage transforms and you get punished it tends not to be from the opponent being skillful and forcing you there KNOWING that you would get *****, but luck of the draw "Well I hope I don't get screwed over randomly".



Edit: Peach Down B is nothing comparable to WarioWare.

1. WarioWare's buffs are given out regardless of character choice. Ganondorf dittos would experience invincibility gained, MK dittos would, Peach vs X character would, etc. Regardless of what character you pick, either you or the opponent can get a large buff. That means it impacts the entire cast when playing on the stage, not just limited to Peach or G&W playing.


2. WarioWare's buffs occur on a noticeably greater probability than Peach's lucky Down B pulls. Both by time and by probability. If I complete the goal of the transformation, I'm guaranteed 1 of 4 options: Nothing happens, I heal, I grow large, or I get invincible. Peach has many more options (different turnips and items) and the stronger pulls are also noticeably more rare than the other options. Getting invincibility from a challenge is not at some 5% success rate or 10% or anything around that area.

 

[UberMario]

Now I hope everyone understands my qualms with pictochat. There was not nearly enough warning for that to be reacted to.

Not enough warning? It formed AFTER he started the move, he had no warning at all, and there's the proof that the ledge disappears before the drawing is even created, too.

I've said it in the past, and I'm still sticking with the idea that Pictochat should be banned, no other legal stage (not even in cat. 3) does this to the player, and the only other one that does it period is WarioWare, the others are predictable well in advance before something like that happens.

I was told that transformations appear and disappear every 13.33 seconds. If this is true, technically, you just need to make yourself aware every 26.66 seconds.

As has been said, that's totally false, the time is completely random, and I have found evidence that it can be as short as four seconds between transformations, with the transfomations varying from about eight to fifteen seconds. There's no predictability in a match as "short" as eight minutes.

After playing a few matches on WarioWare... It's not as bad as everyone thinks :/

0_o

Battle someone, and don't die when they increase in size when you get nothing.

If there was a way to make it stay on the first stage and ONLY the first stage, it would have made a great starter stage, but those powerups really ruin it. If the transfomrations, but NOT the powerups, it would have still been a poor counterpick, because of the difficulty in avoiding the arrows in the ninja stage during the middle of a battle. The foot and cars, however, are easy to avoid.

You can see and react to these to avoid them.

^^This

Unless you get outplayed during a combo, you're going to avoid the Judgment attack pretty easily due to the noticeable startup lag, Peach's stitchface turnip is a different story, as it's hard to see what the face looks like if the Peach throws them right after pulling them out, you're going to try to avoid the turnips anyway, so that's not really a big deal. Especially given that they can be caught, airdodged, etc.

The point isn't how difficult they are to avoid.

If I was playing as Peach, pulling a bob-omb or a stich face could win me a game I wouldn't have won otherwise.

That isn't competitive.

She can't pull a bob-omb out if you turned off the items, setting the item frequency to none doesn't stop them. The same case is true about DeDeDe, even if the item frequency is set to none, he can still throw items IF they are still on individually in the item screen.

Both have a large impact on the game, you just notice Pictochat's randomness more because the impact is apparent much faster.

Which is our point, it's too fast to avoid and thus is not competitive [to the point where it can appear AFTER you start an attack and it will still screw you], you have plenty of time to avoid the other two.

If you know they're going to pop up in the span of eight seconds, and if half of the stage is always a safe zone during that time (with the size increasing once the most dangerous trasformations pass), it's not so bad.

Please be trolling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EFx0-Zkn54

There was also a video where a Falco does a D-Throw, only for a bob-omb to spawn right above him AFTER the throw has been commited, causing him to get killed.

The problem with WarioWare tends not to be the transformations, but rather the ludicrous and random rewards for passing the objective set after a transformation. Hitting my opponent into the rain is 1 thing, but being able to do that and then grow in size, heal, or turn invincible? Or both players fighting, both pass the objective (avoid the arrows, avoid the stomping foot, avoid the hammer strike to the ground, etc), and all of a sudden nothing happens for me while my opponent gets an incredible buff? That's dumb.

^^THIS^^

If Warioware was just the transformations without the rewards, it might be viable for play. Most of the stages transformations are pretty tame: chisel, avoid x feature, taunt, don't move, etc. You could make a different case for pictochat though. Warioware doesn't have any transformation that changes normal physics or extensively intrudes over normal gameplay.

Except for the arrow-rain one (which requires critical timing for larger characters to avoid), I agree. The powerups tore this stage's chances to pieces.

DMG:
Getting healed is such a minor issue, it's not even worth mentioning.
Growing in size is obviously a double-edged sword (no, it isn't just a disadvantage, Tesh. It increases your weight and strength as well), and is thus balanced by default.
Invincibility lasts for exactly 12 seconds.

Oh, it's definitely an advantage. If you're playing against a character that primarily uses disjoints, you're SOL.

The only times I've been killed while big on WarioWare were when the other player got the star and were Luigi or Captain Falcon due to their sweet spot moves and the flinch-proof effects of the star that prevent you from keeping them off.

Outside of a few select match-ups, most characters can avoid an invincible player (yes, even while gaint [an unlikely occurrence, I'd like to add]) while taking little to no damage.

While true, it's still an unfair advantage and plenty of characters are capable of capitalizing with it, especially ones that need time to charge their moves or set up items.

Finally, if the random rewards are an issue (like you said, one player getting nothing and the other becoming invincible), I'd say that is grounds for banning Peach's Down Special as well. Both random elements are incredibly game changing, player initiated, give both players ample time to prepare in advance/react to it when it happens, predictable timing wise.

They are nowhere near being on the same level. I'm guessing that you want to ban Mr. Game & Watch's side B, Peach's FSmash, Luigi's side B, MK's down-tilt, and several other moves that have randomness also?

Being big is a double edged sword, but in most situations it's a buff.

Definitely true, the main times that it isn't is when the other player has the star powerup, otherwise you're usually pretty safe to do your bidding on them.

Pictochats rewards and punishments aren't based on a "success/failure" test. It's more of a "If I hit you here, and this transformation comes up, you get *****" or "If you don't place yourself in this area, you are prone to suffer at the hands of fate". Transformation-wise, there's nothing similar on WarioWare: hazards besides rain have a noticeable duration before activated. Even rain technically tells you when the stage first zooms out and shows the rain transformation background. Pictochat hazards and shapes a lot of times you can have no warning or indicator before they become active.

Exactly, Pictochat's transformations just cause ill effects on the match, if they had at least three times the amount of delay time they currently have (or at least, for Pete's sake, had their behaviors activate AFTER they are drawn. >_< ), it wouldn't have any issue.

There's also no standardized warning for picto transformations. Warioware transformations all start off with the same warning and IIRC the exact same amount of time from warning to full transformation for each one. If Pictochat flashed for 2-3 seconds before the transformation activated, then sure you could say no Johns pay attention. Most of the time though, especially when someone is sent offstage, when the stage transforms and you get punished it tends not to be from the opponent being skillful and forcing you there KNOWING that you would get *****, but luck of the draw "Well I hope I don't get screwed over randomly".

The same is true about items: if they had two-three seconds warning before they appeared [i.e. as a glowing point of light where they will spawn], I could see at least some of them becoming legal, but because they don't it IS just luck whether you get screwed or not, and when the luck can kill you more than it helps you, that's just plain bad metagame-material, which is why items [and hopefully, eventually, PC] are banned. It has happened plenty of times, and we have plenty of proof that it has killed many characters during non-casual [and casual] play.

 

[Tesh]

She can't pull a bob-omb out if you turned off the items, setting the item frequency to none doesn't stop them. The same case is true about DeDeDe, even if the item frequency is set to none, he can still throw items IF they are still on individually in the item screen.

Peach CAN pull bombs and beam swords regardless. What you are talking about only applies to DDD and Diddy Kong.

 

[ぱみゅ]

And that's why I'm done with Pictochat...
"Stage don't warn you" It warns BEFORE the game starts. Avoid the ledge until the line transformation passes. Isn't even that hard, you do it on Orpheon, but in Picto the terrain doesn't moves, and you even has lapses where you can use it (while ANY OTHER transformation is active).

As for everything else, I didn't even read it. Is just about the same complains about the stage don't warning you... BS. Awareness is key, but rather than abusing it, you should know that without it you're screwed, it has been proved over and over, but rather than trying and learn it, you just complain and want it banned.

 

[UberMario]

And that's why I'm done with Pictochat...
"Stage don't warn you" It warns BEFORE the game starts. Avoid the ledge until the line transformation passes. Isn't even that hard, you do it on Orpheon, but in Picto the terrain doesn't moves, and you even has lapses where you can use it (while ANY OTHER transformation is active).

Good luck trying to not use the left ledge during a match, this can also happen on the right side because the face that breathes out has the same properties, but is further out from the stage. Also, there is absolutely no way for ANY of the characters to "wait out" the transformation if they can't glide or still have multiple jumps.

Also, Orpheon is a poor argument because you KNOW that the ledge isn't there on the right side, it doesn't magically disappear while you're commited to a specific recovery method.

As for everything else, I didn't even read it. Is just about the same complains about the stage don't warning you... BS. Awareness is key, but rather than abusing it, you should know that without it you're screwed, it has been proved over and over, but rather than trying and learn it, you just complain and want it banned.

What, exactly, has been proven over and over? How are you supposed to be aware of it if you can't predict when it will occur? How are you going to remember 30+ transformations while you are battling someone?

And this isn't even one trasnformation, this applies to pretty much any transformation. For example, if you're pummeling someone and a transformation of the spikes conveniently appears right above you, how were you or your opponent supposed to predict THAT? All you have to do then is throw them up into it and you might get an easy ko if they don't di properly, or at the very minimum they get a nice bit of damage that was unavoidable.

I'm sorry, but being aware that it's random is pretty useless, that won't stop the transformations from unexpectedly interrupting a match or causing a free KO. And what if you've been pressured to the left side, knocked off by a smash attack or throw, meteor cancel when they pressure in the air, and you're only option is to grab the ledge or die?

You can't prevent players from knocking you off a specific side every time, especially if they know that's the side you're trying to avoid.

BTW, I HAVE learned it, I thoroughly play on all of the legal counterpicks INCLUDING ones like DP, PT, PSh, and LM, I've played on it enough to see that it interrupts gameplay more than not, and is the only stage that can kill you from unpredictability outright. Norfair and Port Town give more than enough time to get out of the way and usually have enough startup "lag" to set up combos into them, which is why I heavily support those two staying legal. (As well as Green Greens and Distant Planet, however, Luigi's Mansion and Pirate Ship are borderline due to their attributes, IMO)

 

[-LzR-]

Somehow magically I am able avoid Pictochat crap and use the knowledge of what has appeared and what not to my advantage. Why couldn't a good player?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

0_o

Battle someone, and don't die when they increase in size when you get nothing.

Okay.

*Planks as Meta Knight*.

If there was a way to make it stay on the first stage and ONLY the first stage, it would have made a great starter stage, but those powerups really ruin it. If the transfomrations, but NOT the powerups, it would have still been a poor counterpick, because of the difficulty in avoiding the arrows in the ninja stage during the middle of a battle. The foot and cars, however, are easy to avoid.

The arrows are not difficult to avoid.

She can't pull a bob-omb out if you turned off the items

Yes, she can actually.

^^THIS^^

Dumb =/= Banworthy

Oh, it's definitely an advantage.

No, it isn't.

If you're playing against a character that primarily uses disjoints, you're SOL.

WELL I'M NOT SUGGESTING IT SHOULD BE A STARTER, AM I!? /facepalm

The only times I've been killed while big on WarioWare were when the other player got the star and were Luigi or Captain Falcon due to their sweet spot moves and the flinch-proof effects of the star that prevent you from keeping them off.

Sorry, I forgot that you've probably played on WarioWare hundreds of times, and that your personal experiences were actually conclusive evidence that the stage is broken.

While true, it's still an unfair advantage and plenty of characters are capable of capitalizing with it, especially ones that need time to charge their moves or set up items.

Ban every stage with random elements then.

They are nowhere near being on the same level. I'm guessing that you want to ban Mr. Game & Watch's side B, Peach's FSmash, Luigi's side B, MK's down-tilt, and several other moves that have randomness also?

No, I don't.

Definitely true, the main times that it isn't is when the other player has the star powerup, otherwise you're usually pretty safe to do your bidding on them.

Uair juggle > death. GG.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Good luck trying to not use the left ledge during a match, this can also happen on the right side because the face that breathes out has the same properties, but is further out from the stage. Also, there is absolutely no way for ANY of the characters to "wait out" the transformation if they can't glide or still have multiple jumps.

The chances of the line gimping you are MINIMAL, The only times you should avoid the ledge are while the stage is blank and it hasn't appeared. If STILL you can't avoid it, I'm pretty sure it's a character wakness rather than stage's fault.

Also, Orpheon is a poor argument because you KNOW that the ledge isn't there on the right side, it doesn't magically disappear while you're commited to a specific recovery method.

I think you're just seeing it from the wrong side.
Orpheon REMOVES the ledge completly, Picto has it there ALL THE TIME, except during a certain trabsformation.

What, exactly, has been proven over and over? How are you supposed to be aware of it if you can't predict when it will occur? How are you going to remember 30+ transformations while you are battling someone?

They're 27, and you can't keep track of everyone, but at least you can remember when the most important ones hasn't appeared yet.

And this isn't even one trasnformation, this applies to pretty much any transformation. For example, if you're pummeling someone and a transformation of the spikes conveniently appears right above you, how were you or your opponent supposed to predict THAT? All you have to do then is throw them up into it and you might get an easy ko if they don't di properly, or at the very minimum they get a nice bit of damage that was unavoidable.

I'm sorry, but being aware that it's random is pretty useless, that won't stop the transformations from unexpectedly interrupting a match or causing a free KO. And what if you've been pressured to the left side, knocked off by a smash attack or throw, meteor cancel when they pressure in the air, and you're only option is to grab the ledge or die?

You can't prevent players from knocking you off a specific side every time, especially if they know that's the side you're trying to avoid.

Predict? Why would you want your opponents to predict that? Outplay them in order to increase the chances of that random spawn and damage/kill occurs. It can be done.

 

[UberMario]

Somehow magically I am able avoid Pictochat crap and use the knowledge of what has appeared and what not to my advantage. Why couldn't a good player?

Playing hundreds of matches in it, I have been wallraped by stage like twice. And the line has gimped me about 3 times.

Okay.

*Planks as Meta Knight*.

. . . . . . .

The arrows are not difficult to avoid.

It's been a while since I've played on it at all [4+ months minimum, probably triple that against someone on a similar or higher level], but aren't the hitboxes large enough where airdodging is problematic?

Yes, she can actually.

If you say so, I've only had it appear against me a handful of times.

Dumb =/= Banworthy

On the contrary, having someone not be rewarded for a successful action is totally ridiculous, especially if the other person DOES get rewarded for the same action. Also, the last two words were not why I wrote that, it was the whole paragraph.

No, it isn't.

How is it not?

WELL I'M NOT SUGGESTING IT SHOULD BE A STARTER, AM I!? /facepalm

This isn't to the same caliber as a counterpick, a giant Marth almost has the entire stage.

Sorry, I forgot that you've probably played on WarioWare hundreds of times, and that your personal experiences were actually conclusive evidence that the stage is broken.

*facepalm* I never said anything like that.

Ban every stage with random elements then.

That's also extreme, there are no other stages that let you become invincible on the offensive.

Uair juggle > death. GG.

I don't see that as true for most cases.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

. . . . . . .

-LzR- was talking about Pictochat, what on earth does that have to do with WarioWare?

It's been a while since I've played on it at all [4+ months minimum, probably triple that against someone on a similar or higher level], but aren't the hitboxes large enough where airdodging is problematic?

They don't cover the entire screen.

On the contrary, having someone not be rewarded for a successful action is totally ridiculous

What? I wasn't denying it was stupid, so "on the contrary" makes no sense.

Also, the last two words were not why I wrote that, it was the whole paragraph.

Erm... The rest of the post just says "rewards are over-powered" with nothing backing the claim up. That's why I didn't respond to it.

How is it not?

Because hitting someone who is big is easier than hitting someone who is small.

This isn't to the same caliber as a counterpick, a giant Marth almost has the entire stage.

Plank.
Air Dodge.
Spot Dodge.
Shield.
Roll.

*facepalm* I never said anything like that.

I never said you did. I was trying to point out how you having played on the stage a few times isn't enough to say whether something is broken or not.

That's also extreme, there are no other stages that let you become invincible on the offensive.

For 12 seconds...

Which most characters can stall out...

I don't see that as true for most cases.

Hence why it is a double-edged sword.

 

[UberMario]

The chances of the line gimping you are MINIMAL, The only times you should avoid the ledge are while the stage is blank and it hasn't appeared. If STILL you can't avoid it, I'm pretty sure it's a character wakness rather than stage's fault.

If you say so . . . . .

I think you're just seeing it from the wrong side.
Orpheon REMOVES the ledge completly, Picto has it there ALL THE TIME, except during a certain trabsformation.

Do I know that the ledge is absent at Frigate? Yes, so I'm going to ensure that I get onto the stage normally if I can.

Do I know that the ledge will be absent on Frigate at the exact moment I recover? No, and if the other player is on the ground, I'm a siting duck on a perfectly flat plane.

They're 27, and you can't keep track of everyone, but at least you can remember when the most important ones hasn't appeared yet.

My bad on the number count, but you can still be focused on the opponent enough to forget that the line hasn't appeared yet OR has already appeared. Same with the fence, side spikes, face, block tower, whale, sailboat, flames, rockes, and rolling cart. There will be at least one time when you are grabbed and can't avoid being thrown into one of them eventually.

Predict? Why would you want your opponents to predict that? Outplay them in order to increase the chances of that random spawn and damage/kill occurs. It can be done.

My point was that the opponent wouldn't have known that it would appear at that moment, and thus got a free damage bonus on their foe, and in most cases, getting in the right position to outplay them like that on purpose is very unlikely, and is more likely to happen due to shear luck.

-LzR- was talking about Pictochat, what on earth does that have to do with WarioWare?

Your's and his were next to each other, I put them in the same slot so I wouldn't double post.

They don't cover the entire screen.

I could have sworn that their landing position was random, though.

What? I wasn't denying it was stupid, so "on the contrary" makes no sense.

You wrote that it being dumb was not banworthy . . . . . .

Erm... The rest of the post just says "rewards are over-powered" with nothing backing the claim up. That's why I didn't respond to it.

This:

"both players fighting, both pass the objective (avoid the arrows, avoid the stomping foot, avoid the hammer strike to the ground, etc), and all of a sudden nothing happens for me while my opponent gets an incredible buff?"

Counts as not having anything to back his claim up with?

Because hitting someone who is big is easier than hitting someone who is small.

And killing someone who is small is easier tha killing someone that is big, if you have at least one decently fast attack, they WILL have to be careful approaching.

Plank.
Air Dodge.
Spot Dodge.
Shield.
Roll.

None of those will give you frame perfect protection, you will eventually be hit by doing that.

I never said you did. I was trying to point out how you having played on the stage a few times isn't enough to say whether something is broken or not.

Fair enough, however, the powerup flaw is pretty obvious, and doesn't need more than a few matches of playing to determine that not being rewarded for an action that rewards your opponents is unfair and uncompetitive, especially if it's forced.

For 12 seconds...

Which most characters can stall out...

The stage is still small enough to make that difficult. (Assuming that it didn't go straight to another transformation)

Hence why it is a double-edged sword.

Alright, I see it as a buff, you basically see it as a nerf, let's just leave it at that.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Your's and his were next to each other, I put them in the same slot so I wouldn't double post.

So... why did you respond with "................." anyway?

I could have sworn that their landing position was random, though.

Yeah, it is. So?

You wrote that it being dumb was not banworthy . . . . . .

...BECAUSE IT ISN'T!?

This:

"both players fighting, both pass the objective (avoid the arrows, avoid the stomping foot, avoid the hammer strike to the ground, etc), and all of a sudden nothing happens for me while my opponent gets an incredible buff?"

Counts as not having anything to back his claim up with?

Like I said: Dumb =/= Ban-worthy. Or you'd have to ban any action that causes tripping.

And killing someone who is small is easier tha killing someone that is big, if you have at least one decently fast attack, they WILL have to be careful approaching.

Which is why I said double-edged sword rather than nerf.

None of those will give you frame perfect protection, you will eventually be hit by doing that.

Just like you'll eventually be hit by Peach's bob-omb.

Fair enough, however, the powerup flaw is pretty obvious, and doesn't need more than a few matches of playing to determine that not being rewarded for an action that rewards your opponents is unfair and uncompetitive, especially if it's forced.

Like I said above, it is obvious that it is unfair and uncompetitive.
THIS IS NOT A UNIQUE EXAMPLE OF UNFAIT/UNCOMPETITIVENESS IN BRAWL.

The stage is still small enough to make that difficult. (Assuming that it didn't go straight to another transformation)

Got any recent matches you could inform me about that demonstrate the difficulty of avoiding an invincible player? Preferably not anecdotal.

Alright, I see it as a buff, you basically see it as a nerf, let's just leave it at that.

If I saw it as a nerf, I probably would've, you know, been using the word "nerf" instead of "double-edged sword".

 

[UberMario]

So... why did you respond with "................." anyway?

Because you used Meta-Knight's planking as an excuse for avoiding someone that turned into a giant.

Yeah, it is. So?

That's part of the reason that I brought up the difficulty of avoiding it, going offscreen to reduce the chances of being hit is not always an option, and their knockback is pretty noticeable.

...BECAUSE IT ISN'T!?

How are luck based, extreme rewards not banworthy?!!

Like I said: Dumb =/= Ban-worthy. Or you'd have to ban any action that causes tripping.

Causing someone to trip does not turn you into a death machine.

Spoiler

Extreme, but there's no comparison between being turned large and tripping, which, for the latter, isn't usually the end of the world

Just like you'll eventually be hit by Peach's bob-omb.

It's pretty hard not to notice her pulling out a black object when she normally pulls out white turnips, but yes, you will be hit by it eventually. On the flipside, the rewards occur on a match-by-match basis.

Like I said above, it is obvious that it is unfair and uncompetitive.
THIS IS NOT A UNIQUE EXAMPLE OF UNFAIT/UNCOMPETITIVENESS IN BRAWL.

No, but it's one of the most obvious and widely-accepted examples.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because you used Meta-Knight's planking as an excuse for avoiding someone that turned into a giant.

What exactly is wrong with that?

That's part of the reason that I brought up the difficulty of avoiding it, going offscreen to reduce the chances of being hit is not always an option, and their knockback is pretty noticeable.

You have ample time to go off-screen and avoid them, if the opponent is preventing you from doing that, you are being out-played.

How are luck based, extreme rewards not banworthy?!!

Because they aren't extreme.

Causing someone to trip does not turn you into a death machine.

Spoiler

Extreme, but there's no comparison between being turned large and tripping, which, for the latter, isn't usually the end of the world

And being turned large isn't the end of the world either, for either player. I'm not comparing the mechanics, I was comparing the fact they are both random and unfair and uncompetitive.

It's pretty hard not to notice her pulling out a black object when she normally pulls out white turnips, but yes, you will be hit by it eventually. On the flipside, the rewards occur on a match-by-match basis.

If something is less common, that doesn't make it any less ban-worthy.

No, but it's one of the most obvious and widely-accepted examples.

So...?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Do I know that the ledge is absent at Frigate? Yes, so I'm going to ensure that I get onto the stage normally if I can.

Do I know that the ledge will be absent on Frigate at the exact moment I recover? No, and if the other player is on the ground, I'm a siting duck on a perfectly flat plane.

Again, the wrong perspective.
You must be careful on Frigate ALL THE TIME even if the platform moved high and you can't reach it anymore, but it's worse that Pictochat randomly removes it for 10 seconds?

My bad on the number count, but you can still be focused on the opponent enough to forget that the line hasn't appeared yet OR has already appeared. Same with the fence, side spikes, face, block tower, whale, sailboat, flames, rockes, and rolling cart. There will be at least one time when you are grabbed and can't avoid being thrown into one of them eventually.

You lost the line there. You first said you can't remember them and then that you can't avoid them, both are different, and at least you can do the first one. Being thrown into them is getting outplayed.

My point was that the opponent wouldn't have known that it would appear at that moment, and thus got a free damage bonus on their foe, and in most cases, getting in the right position to outplay them like that on purpose is very unlikely, and is more likely to happen due to shear luck.

Increase the chances of that happening. Use them for YOUR benefit.
Call it shear luck if you want, but make a gamble of getting a reward (which is not-broken, btw).
You didn't, too bad, try again; you did, celebrate.

 

[Tesh]

Guys, bombs should be turned on high. You only have to worry about instantly dying SOMETIMES. With GnW and Peach you have to worry about it ALL THE TIME JUST LIKE FRIGATE.

We are trying to determine skill here, people don't travel across the country for "whobo 3 lottery event" or "pound V bingo tournament". If I outsmart you 10 times and toss you offstage and nothing spawns in your way and kills you, I shouldn't lose if you toss me offstage once and have something luckily spawn in the way. Thats uncompetitive and we should avoid having that type of thing in our competitions. We want the better player to win. Not just some guy who was good enough to survive until stupid things happened to his opponent.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Peach has a 1/64 chance of pulling one of those items, Beam sword, Stitch, Mr. Saturn. All are good when used right, but all of them can be handled if you see it coming and are conscious of it.

Heck I've had Peach's throw Bom-ombs when I was Link and used his Zair to make them explode before they hit him. With Lucario I've even used his dair to make them explode with no injury to me. ^_^. And no you can't catch her Bom-ombs they have a different property than the item ones where they cannot be caught.

Stitch face on the other hand can be caught or even shielded, and it's not a big deal...well sometimes, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC0iMuMnU9g

Still if a Peach player can tell what they pulled, I can expect other players to do the same by watching the turnips/items she pulls. Heck in this game it's much easier to catch them and she has a much less chance of pulling a god item compared to Melee's 1/16 chance.

G&W is a simple don't get read, also 2 of his 9 hammer I beleive put his at risk of being punished on hit. If he wiffs a 9, he has to wait two more hammer hits to try again.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The argument isn't whether players can react to it or not, because obviously they can.

The argument is that while predictable, they are still powerful and still random. Just like WarioWare's tfs.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The argument isn't whether players can react to it or not, because obviously they can.

The argument is that while predictable, they are still powerful and still random. Just like WarioWare's tfs.

The fact the opponent has control over it to that extent of how they take the results as opposed to Warioware where the player has no control over the rewards they get when they do perform something every character has access to.

You can control Peach's god items and G&W's on every stage reasonably, you can't handle every character in the cast getting big/start while you get 4% healing if you do the mini-games.

Wariowares are far more game breaking than Peach's or G&Ws in many cases, and it is removable. There is no objective way to remove Peach or G&W's moves without outright banning the character or making an arbitrary or tedious rule. A ban on them is not acceptable because there randomness is at a point where it doesn't make them god tier or rise multiple placements based on those facts alone, it barely is considered in terms of their tier placement.

Players have far more control over handling here than Warioware, which does make it not broken.

It's random, yes and can be gamebreaking in certain situations, however in most situation with those two character it doesn't warp anything around them, they don't base their games solely on these facts about them, they may have ways and can knowingly aim to make the chances better for them, but result wise it doesn't warp their character to be solely about abusing the random items or 9's.

On Warioware, it's only about the mini games with random rewards. Not doing it is absolutely foolhardy and the stage is warped and around random rewards, which is anti-competitive to unacceptable levels.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The fact the opponent has control over it to that extent of how they take the results as opposed to Warioware where the player has no control over the rewards they get when they do perform something every character has access to.

What? Do the players suddenly freeze in place after a mini-game? That's ridiculous, just as a player can control what happens after a random Turnip pull, they can control what happens after a random

You can control Peach's god items and G&W's on every stage reasonably, you can't handle every character in the cast getting big/start while you get 4% healing if you do the mini-games.

...Why can't you handle the rewards? I mean, sure, some match-ups would make it difficult (Meta Knight vs Snake comes to mind), but that isn't unique, most counter-picks affect match-ups differently.

and it is removable. There is no objective way to remove Peach or G&W's moves without outright banning the character or making an arbitrary or tedious rule. A ban on them is not acceptable because there randomness is at a point where it doesn't make them god tier or rise multiple placements based on those facts alone, it barely is considered in terms of their tier placement.

Oh yes! I completely forgot! An arbitrary and tedious rule, we certainly can't have any of those in our rules-

• Extending Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape by leaving the ground and returning to it while invisible is banned. (For example, flicking the C-Stick up while holding down on the control stick during the move will cause this to happen.)

All in all, the question is: "Will the better player consistently win on WarioWare?" I think the answer to that is yes, and I've yet to see any evidence (outside of theory-craft, of course) to suggest that the answer is no.

 

[ぱみゅ]

In Wario Ware, the better player wins the most minigames. But rewards are so extreme and incosistent that the one that wins more minigames doesn't gets any advantage.
The game overcentralizes upon a Starman, Giant to a certain extent, but the former is the one that breaks the game, causing incosistent result, it doesn't matter if people can stall it down, the game is changed COMPLETLY after a Starman is given, marginalizting the skill of BOTH players (one into mindlessly attacking, the othe one into running for his/her life).