Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Grim Tuesday]

In Wario Ware, the better player wins the most minigames. But rewards are so extreme and incosistent that the one that wins more minigames very often gets an advantage.
The game overcentralizes upon a Starman, Giant to a certain extent, but the former is the one that breaks the game, causing incosistent result (I don't actually have anything to back this claim up), it doesn't matter if people can stall it down, the game is changed COMPLETLY (for 12 seconds) after a Starman is given, marginalizting the skill of BOTH players (one into mindlessly attacking, the othe one into running for his/her life) for 12 seconds.

I noticed a few errors/things you left out, so I fixed them for you.

 

[ぱみゅ]

In order:

No, they do not often gets consistent advantages for winning more minigames.

There's no need for competitive evidence when EVERYTIME someone gets a Starman (in WW, in FFAs, or whatever the case is) the results are the same: mindless offensive, which is very effective.

I said that doesn't matter if people can stall the whole 12 seconds, it is STILL overcentralizing and game breaking.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

In order:

No, they do not often gets consistent advantages for winning more minigames.

I'd love if you could explain why. It's common sense, if you win more mini-games the chance of you getting an advantage increases (from 0% to 75% per micro-game).

There's no need for competitive evidence when EVERYTIME someone gets a Starman (in WW, in FFAs, or whatever the case is) the results are the same: mindless offensive, which is very effective.

I'm not asking you to back up your claim that it causes mindless offensive gameplay, that's obvious to everyone. I'm asking you to back up your claim that it causes inconsistent results.

I said that doesn't matter if people can stall the whole 12 seconds, it is STILL overcentralizing and game breaking.

Then I guess spawn invincibility is broken, too...? o_O

 

[DMG]

Spawn invincibility doesn't last for 12 seconds, and is only given out after LOSING A STOCK.

WarioWare invincibility lasts longer and is given out more frequently. You can't even come close to comparing spawn invincibility to WarioWare invincibility. You want a better comparison?

Imagine if your spawn reward was randomly split between invincibility, growing large, or doing nothing. Now imagine that instead of getting that strictly through spawning, that it was occurring multiple times in less than a minute. THAT'S more like what WarioWare has.

 

[-LzR-]

I will do like you all should do: Play some actual matches on Pictochat and then analyze how much influence did randomness have on the matches.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What? Do the players suddenly freeze in place after a mini-game? That's ridiculous, just as a player can control what happens after a random Turnip pull, they can control what happens after a random

They can, but for Warioware it is unreasonable to deal with in many cases where as Peach's turnips are reaonable to handle. Think you can outrun invincible MK, Fox, Sonic, Wario? Who have no reason to fear anything you will do and can be as risky and ballzy as they want?

being invicibily or Big is far better than pulling a Beam Sword, Mr. Saturn, or even arguably a Stitch face. Even Bom-ombs aren't as good most of the time.

...Why can't you handle the rewards? I mean, sure, some match-ups would make it difficult (Meta Knight vs Snake comes to mind), but that isn't unique, most counter-picks affect match-ups differently.

Think about what happens, big makes you easier to CG and lock into Utilts/Ftilts, etc. However, the shear fast your range in improved ten fold with kill power easily makes up for it. Can you handle it? Not reasonably, Giant MK? good luck. Giant, Lucario is even really lol, those huge aura hit boxes.

Invincibility is obviously the worst. The risk reward system vanishes for one character completely. What risks do you have from a person who can't hit you?

Oh yes! I completely forgot! An arbitrary and tedious rule, we certainly can't have any of those in our rules-





All in all, the question is: "Will the better player consistently win on WarioWare?" I think the answer to that is yes, and I've yet to see any evidence (outside of theory-craft, of course) to suggest that the answer is no.

Wrong sir, Wrong.

While it is listed as Arbitrary it's pretty dang obvious someone is doing it because they vanished far longer than they were supposed to with DownB. Yes you can add longer invisibility on accident, but anything like that is not noticeable, if you do it on purpose, it's gonna be pretty dang obvious you did it.

Winning more gives you more chance to win the invincibility, however that reward is pretty dang broken, even big at times is pretty dang broken. "I got Big, Oh crap your invisible now you have nothing to fear from me as you can blindly run into me and get hits off." This isn't theory if you know how starman works or even invincibility in general.

I've seen nothing to suggest a yes either regarding that question, so if the answer is yes, do you have anything to support your stance that this stage is legit? Or is this like Mario Bros. where your trying to make us come up with a reason that was already answered years ago regarding how this stage works.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yes you can add longer invisibility on accident, but anything like that is not noticeable

Actually it's quite possible to spend an extended period of time invincible with down-b on accident.

I've used dimensional cape and accidentally gone all the way across the stage on lylat. (something to do with tilting maybe?)

Another example is on Distant Planet where if you dimensional cape onto the slope while it's raining, you'll automatically stay invisible and invincible.
(I found this on accident so it's entirely possible for it to happen in a real match without anyone doing it on purpose)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If you do it for longer than I a second even I can notice that.

And you can't really do it on accident if you do it longer than a second or so, that's quite a lot of frames of input that they made themselves invincible.

 

[Ghostbone]

Like I said it's possible to extend it by holding a direction and nothing else in certain cases, which means it can be done on accident....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wrong sir, Wrong.

While it is listed as Arbitrary it's pretty dang obvious someone is doing it because they vanished far longer than they were supposed to with DownB. Yes you can add longer invisibility on accident, but anything like that is not noticeable, if you do it on purpose, it's gonna be pretty dang obvious you did it.

Erm... what does something being arbitrary and surgical have to do with how obvious it is?

Winning more gives you more chance to win the invincibility, however that reward is pretty dang broken, even big at times is pretty dang broken. "I got Big, Oh crap your invisible now you have nothing to fear from me as you can blindly run into me and get hits off." This isn't theory if you know how starman works or even invincibility in general.

So... I think that the invicibility/size adjustment isn't over-powered, and you (as well as everyone else) think it is, how would you like me to try and prove my point? Theory-craft? Matches? Demonstrational videos?

I've seen nothing to suggest a yes either regarding that question, so if the answer is yes, do you have anything to support your stance that this stage is legit? Or is this like Mario Bros. where your trying to make us come up with a reason that was already answered years ago regarding how this stage works.

Difference is, no one had actually proved that Mario Bros. was broken prior to that thread.

It'd be great if you answered my question: "Will the better player still win on WarioWare?"

 

[ぱみゅ]

Will the better player still win on WarioWare?

No. Because of the inconsistence/brokenness of the rewards.
You need feedback? Play on it. After some few games, you'll eventually notice how game overcentralizes upon starmans.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

>implying I haven't been playing on it.

 

[Ghostbone]

No. Because of the inconsistence/brokenness of the rewards.
You need feedback? Play on it. After some few games, you'll eventually notice how game overcentralizes upon starmans.

The funny thing is Grim and I actually played on this stage.
(started out as accidentally picking it instead of Skyworld iirc lol)

After a few matches we both had the opinion of.
"wow this isn't as bad as we thought"

IMO the better player will win on WarioWare most of the time....depending on the match-up :/

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Really though. It's one of those stages where there is no objective answer. I mean, you can almost objectively say that Temple simplifies the game to the point where player skill is irrelevant. Whether PC and WW skew results to a bannable extent is subjective, considering that it is impossible to escape randomness (****ing tripping).

All in all, the solution is obvious: HYBRID STAGE LIST STRIKING.

 

[Ghostbone]

Hybrid stage list striking is the answer

Spoiler

lol no it's melee obviously

 

[Life]

Not to sound egotistic but is this my hybrid rule or one I haven't heard of? Just curious because I feel like nobody reads the thing when I post it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Either of the ones suggested earlier (one of which was yours).

 

[Tesh]

No. Because of the inconsistence/brokenness of the rewards.
You need feedback? Play on it. After some few games, you'll eventually notice how game overcentralizes upon starmans.

I don't get you tbh. You say that even though pictochat has almost 30 random events that happen at random times that can't really be avoided in a skillful way, you should be able to handle it. You say that you can fight for control of the "safe zone" and push your opponent into situations where retardedly random things might happen to him. LOOK AT THE VIDEO REFLEX POSTED! That does NOT happen on any other legal stage for good reason.

What if i were to tell you that WarioWare is about winning more minigames and keeping you opponent from winning minigames to increase your chances of randomly getting rewarded, while also balancing the risks of being huge. BTW I don't agree with DMG about being huge being a double edged sword. Sure sometimes you might be able to get a hit in or maybe a kill, but being large screws up most characters hitboxes. There is no flinch resistance, so there is no avoiding being stuck in uptilt/upthrow infinites until you shrink back down. And even with all the pros to the rewards, they don't yield as much of an advantage as pictochat can.

WarioWare will give out 2 things that matter (stars and mushrooms). There is ALWAYS a fair warning that a reward is coming. Its preceded by a minigame and it should be clear to you that what the victory conditions are (you can also aggressively prevent yourself and you opponent from winning any minigame). Huge people and invincible people can't take away a stock at 0% like pictochat can. Thus WarioWare has LESS outrageous rewards.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't get you tbh. You say that even though pictochat has almost 30 random events that happen at random times that can't really be avoided in a skillful way, you should be able to handle it. You say that you can fight for control of the "safe zone" and push your opponent into situations where retardedly random things might happen to him. LOOK AT THE VIDEO REFLEX POSTED! That does NOT happen on any other legal stage for good reason.

What if i were to tell you that WarioWare is about winning more minigames and keeping you opponent from winning minigames to increase your chances of randomly getting rewarded, while also balancing the risks of being huge. BTW I don't agree with DMG about being huge being a double edged sword. Sure sometimes you might be able to get a hit in or maybe a kill, but being large screws up most characters hitboxes. There is no flinch resistance, so there is no avoiding being stuck in uptilt/upthrow infinites until you shrink back down. And even with all the pros to the rewards, they don't yield as much of an advantage as pictochat can.

WarioWare will give out 2 things that matter (stars and mushrooms). There is ALWAYS a fair warning that a reward is coming. Its preceded by a minigame and it should be clear to you that what the victory conditions are (you can also aggressively prevent yourself and you opponent from winning any minigame). Huge people and invincible people can't take away a stock at 0% like pictochat can. Thus WarioWare has LESS outrageous rewards.

Pictochat offers a couple random terrains to fight in, some of them are hazardous.
WarioWare offers a couple random terrains to fight in, some of them are hazardous. PLUS offers an item-like bonus that changes the game depending on which one the game gave to the winner(s) of the minigames.

 

[Tesh]

Try not to oversimplify the situations caused by the terrain. You can't equalize the hazards on WarioWare with the ones on Pictochat. WarioWare's hazards have plenty of fair warning and won't just randomly pop up immediately and kill you/save you the way Pictochat will. The power ups make change the way you play for a little while, but at least they give you the chance. Pictochat just does things immediately that crucially affect the outcome of the match. They don't give you that CHANCE to play dynamically to avoid the dangers.

 

[Ghostbone]

They don't give you that CHANCE to play dynamically to avoid the dangers.

This my main problem with Pictochat.

For a hazard to be fair both players need to be able to react and adapt to a hazard before it occurs. Or at least plan for it (in the case of YI) beforehand.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

About WarioWare's Micro-games:
Chisel:
Completely non-random. Given the amount of time it is up for, unless your opponent just died or something, they should be able to either attack you (so neither player gets the award) or break a small piece of it themselves (so both players get the award).

Stay Dry:
Completely non-random (contrary to popular belief). Same thing as Chisel, but even more effective. VERY rarely will one player get the award, let alone anyone getting it.

Jump:
There is pretty much no excuse to not get the award here. It is stupidly predictable and easy to avoid.

Sidestep:
Arrow positions are random but you can see them coming and plan around them in advance. The sides of the screen are always safe, and there is always one gap (large enough for two players). The arrows deal moderate knockback. Shielding them doesn't give you the award. This is one of the few games where it is common for only one player to be rewarded.

Taunt:
If the opponent taunts, you can either KO them (most of the time), in which case they get the award, but lose a life (making it an advantage for you pretty much all the time). Alternatively, you can taunt as well and then you both get the award. You can taunt at any part of this microgame to get the award, it doesn't necessarily have to be during the camera flash.

Pop:
Similar to Chisel but more difficult. Most of the time, both players will get this. Sometimes you can stop your opponent from popping them though, it's situational. Up to 3 will appear in random positions (around the middle of the screen).

Dodge:
This is a weird one. The car (for lack of a better short word) will drive by. A warning comes up showing which direction it will come from. It has pretty powerful knock-back. Sometimes it jumps, sometimes it stops, sometimes it does neither and sometimes it does both. If you shield it you don't get the award. Most characters can just jump > double jump > air dodge (if need be) to avoid it.

Look Out:
If you lose here, you deserve it. It's not easy to push someone into the foot (decent knock-back) because it isn't very big. The shadow makes it really predictable. 99% of the time both players will get the award.

Don't Move:
Same thing as with taunt. If the opponent doesn't move, KO them. Alternatively, stay still as well. "Movement" counts as any button press, btw.

Just some random information to give people a better idea of the stage. I'm thinking of doing a video guide to it, not sure.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Pictochat won't reward everytime, every reward/punish/damage/gimp is situational, try and avoid even risk of get stuck on those situations.

Warioware will judge after every game. But minigames alone doesn't breaks the game (I actually love them), rewards does.

"Both are situational then", yes, but one has like 10 or less chances to affect results, while the other one has chances after few seconds no matter how long the match is.

 

[DMG]

I'd save your breath Fandango. There's no way in hell we would legalize WarioWare. I don't care if you go so far as to come up with the exact algorith used to determine who gets what from rewards, or interesting research like character choices affecting rewards given or port changing things.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Unless there's a set pattern or something that we can predict and abuse, then nothing will trump the inherent unfairness of the Star-Mushroom variant.

 

[Tesh]

At least WarioWare gives fair warning that something is about to happen.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...With no way to deal with it.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What is wrong with Skyworld?

 

[UberMario]

It has mixed, negative reactions due to it's inherent cave-of-life. The placement of the killzones also buffs the recoveries of characters like Kirby, since there's a very large space in between the bottom of the stage and the lowest killzone, and are thus more likely to survive a failed tech. It also doesn't help that the platforms are the only things you can grab, can result in your character being blocked from recovering [ironically] due to their solidness, and they are breakable, making it possible to gimp someone simply by breaking a slab just as they start recovering toward it.

On wifi, it's even worse, where about 50% of intended techs will fail if both players have average connections, it's just not worth it.

When looking at the stage design from an image, it looks great, but it simply doesn't play out the way it should. Sure, it's more competitive than, say, Big Blue, but it's extremely reliant on tech skill and is pretty much anti-competitive if you use it online, as characters with powerful vertically-hitting moves and great recoveries are going to stomp all over the rest of the cast due to the difficulty of ceiling-techs online [they are easy offline]. Meta-Knight and Snake in particular feel unusually [more] powerful on it, either offline or online.

 

[chaosmaster1991]

On wifi, it's even worse, where about 50% of intended techs will fail if both players have average connections, it's just not worth it.

When looking at the stage design from an image, it looks great, but it simply doesn't play out the way it should. Sure, it's more competitive than, say, Big Blue, but it's extremely reliant on tech skill and is pretty much anti-competitive if you use it online, as characters with powerful vertically-hitting moves and great recoveries are going to stomp all over the rest of the cast due to the difficulty of ceiling-techs online [they are easy offline]. Meta-Knight and Snake in particular feel unusually [more] powerful on it, either offline or online.

While some of your points are certainly correct, it's news to me that a stage's legality is decided by how it's like to play on it on wifi.

Apart from that, apparently there is a circle as well.

 

[UberMario]

I didn't say that it's online playability determined it's legallity, I just pointed out that the issues become more pronounced when you play online, they are still there offline, but it's also much easier to tech when not on wi-fi if you know when to. The other points are present regardless of where you're playing and how: the platform behaviors cause unorthodox gameplay due to their properties. The ability for them to be broken actually does the stage more harm than good, for the aforementioned recovery issues it can cause. (i.e. you can be gimped by a respawning slab as you try to go through the clouds, or you can have one be broken underneath you as you freefall from a recovery)

And yes, there is a circle as well, somehow I forgot to mention that before . . . . .

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'd save your breath Fandango. There's no way in hell we would legalize WarioWare. I don't care if you go so far as to come up with the exact algorith used to determine who gets what from rewards, or interesting research like character choices affecting rewards given or port changing things.

It's not so much to "legalize" it. I don't even care, HFSLS is a better option than Starters/CPs. I'm just putting out information so if the HFSLS method ever becomes the standard, people will be less likely to ban WW straight away and know how to play on it if it does get picked.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What is this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3hn6DkMjs8#t=1m35s

 

[Ghostbone]

lol
nooooo idea

something funky with DK's grab?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The knockback of the catapult thing seemed to get stored in DK's grab somehow.

 

[Tesh]

That actually looks like it might have nothing to do with the pirate ship. The catapult isn't that strong and it also doesn't do 20% damage (or any damage right?). If you listen when he tries to grab fox, it sounds just like an africa punch but I don't understand the damage there.

Then again it might just be a glitch with the hitboxes on the bottom of the ship. It does exactly 20% damage and has massive knockback (far more than the catapult).

 

[UberMario]

I think it was due to the catapult breaking DK's original grab, so when he grabbed Fox again (he just barely manages to during Fox's FSmash), it released the energy from the catapult.

Though the strange part is, the catapult was already triggered by the time of the "first" grab, so I have no clue (unless Fox's actual hitbox got "stuck" to the catapult, with the catapult object sinking into the hitbox of the bow, causing the knockback). I doubt it's something that will be that common, but dang, that knockback . . . . .

 

[Ghostbone]

Except the bottom of the ship spikes...

Oh wait fox was on the ground >.>

But yea it seems somehow DK's grab stored the attack power of the bottom of the ship.

Maybe because he grabbed as the catapult was going away?

Punch sound because he punched the catapult as it was going down?

Speculation woooo.

Edit: Yea it's probably because of how Fox broke out before

 

[Tesh]

Perhaps someone could try to recreate this?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I really don't see much of a difference with Skyworld and Luigi's Mansion (which is legal)