Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Ghostbone]

lol

I wonder what people's limits are for nerfing MK...

Slippery slope ftw.

 

[Life]

I wouldn't necessarily call it a slippery slope. Remember, it's called the slippery slope _fallacy_ for a reason.

I still like the idea of one-stock, three minutes with food. But eh.

 

[Ghostbone]

I still like the idea of one-stock, three minutes with food. But eh.

Would allow for heaps of stage depth at least, (If dave's stupid rule is included) as you'd probably have to up sets to best of 7 and best of 11 for finals.

 

[kingofkings97]

The food part is a good idea but one stock the matches would be over to quick.

 

[Life]

The food part is a good idea but one stock the matches would be over to quick.

Other fighting games have a 99-second timer for one stock and have competitive followings (not that we should emulate other fighters in EVERY way, but evaluating things in other franchises doesn't hurt). Faster matches isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Also, sets would probably be Bo7.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Bo7? Wouldn't you have to do Bo9?

 

[Ghostbone]

Bo7? Wouldn't you have to do Bo9?

Not really.

You have to take into account all the extra time between games, a Bo7 1-stock set would likely take around the same amount of time as a Bo3 3-stock set.

Not that big of a deal having slightly less overall stocks.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Guys, making it so Meta Knight can't grab the edge at all is the least scrubby way of going about it (aside from banning Meta Knight, though that arguably removes a ****-ton of depth from the game).

I'd be perfect fine with losing the limited depth MK brings with him, if I could bring with it the greater depth we could gain from removing him.

We get stages that lose many forms of questionably because he was the problem. A CP system that works, Diddy has bad match-ups outside of MK being are ignorant of them, LGL not needed, frame data shows Pit and G&W aren't broken on the ledge, and more character coming out to be better.

I think the game is better without him, imo.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you can prove that removing Meta Knight would yield more depth than keeping him (via a combination of tournament results, match-ups and logic) then feel free to do so.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If you can prove that removing Meta Knight would yield more depth than keeping him (via a combination of tournament results, match-ups and logic) then feel free to do so.

...

I've heard in the past you hosted MK banned tournaments before.

I wanted to hear on why you did this and/or why you stopped.

Though my tournament numbers increased i was literally hurting some of my states BEST players. DOJO/Dphat/Van Jones/D4ba/Sethlon and several other players litterally had no other character to go to. The scene and state ive work SO HARD at would lose some of its best players if i kept mk banned. I love bigger turnouts and all but not at the expense of my hard work.

So instead, i place rules ONLY on MK. Ledge grab limit(mk only) was set to 35. Scrooging/Plainking/Stalling was only applied to MK. Singles doubles, it did not matter, its on MK only. Because of these new rules, we dont see any NEW mk players in my region but we still have our current MK players.

If MK was banned by a the SBR or a major TO, i would follow and never look back because then it would become standard. The issue we face is that the SBR and all the major TOs use/2nd mk or are afraid of what will happen if mk is gone. Untill that is over come, he will stay legal.

This was bound to happen to some players, still it's something that happens when anyone changes mains.

Where there any players that did fine with switching characters?

Yea, dojo and lee still did fine but not near the level they could have been at had they used mk. Remember though, they are litterally top 10 in the WORLD so they can do very good with most characters. The average mk player who must go someone else cant and thats why they did not go to my event.

If you ask about stages, look around here if it wasn't obvious about that point, Brinstar it's MK, Cruise it's MK, Norfair it's MK. Granted there may be other characters but he is a very very common name that jumps up.

As for MU's wait for the BBR match-up to come out.

 

[Tesh]

Lol, top 10 in the world. That conversation isnt recent is it?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lol, top 10 in the world. That conversation isnt recent is it?

It's not, I asked him in the past how the MK banned tournaments went with that PM.

I think MK is a problem with stages either way, his name seems to always pop up when any topic about stages are discussed.

 

[Life]

Bo7? Wouldn't you have to do Bo9?

Ghostbone already answered this, but the number is based on the amount of time taken, not the number of stocks required. Also, greater stage depth arguably makes up for fewer stocks in a set, but eh.
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Regarding MK ban: IMO, the amount of depth gained by MK's absence (more stages: IMO is moot because community is, to put it lightly, change-resistant in that regard, but I could be wrong... more characters: Peach, Marth come to mind as decent characters who are arguably much more viable without MK.... nonfail counterpicking, though I still advocate hybrid system...) exceeds the amount lost by banning him, and thus theoretically a ban would be in good taste, BUT since presumably many new players main MK (he's easy to use and quite powerful at all levels of play) do we lose more from not having that extra chunk of fanbase to pull new players from? On the flipside, will more of that group join when they realize said powerful (or to them, annoying) character isn't commonly usable in tournaments? And then there's the logistics of putting this ban in place (why Xyro and Raziek's ban initiatives failed), and THEN you have the issues of international tournaments--M2K wouldn't go to Japan if Japan banned MK, no? And vice-versa. So ultimately, are these organizing nightmares worth the effort of the _arguable_ increase in depth an MK-ban would present?

This is why I consider myself a neutral on the subject. I think MK-banned Brawl is somewhat deeper than current Brawl, but I'm not sure it's enough so to justify the hassle of switching over.

But we aren't supposed to be discussing this anyway....

 

[ぱみゅ]

Would be sad, there's many legit MK-only players that use him because they like his playstile other than him being very good (like me)....

But... If it is demonstrated to be healthier, I'd agree, tho...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm neutral on the subject, even as a Meta Knight main. I believe that the depth lost by removing him is almost equal to the depth lost by having him, so... I dunno.

If he did end up being banned, I guess I'd just go Jigglypuff and learn a ground-based character like Snake, Diddy Kong or Ice Climbers as a secondary :/

 

[Ghostbone]

The point that we might lose players is kinda moot...MK banned tournaments had a larger amount or entrants relative to tournaments with MK legal iirc.

And I think if the US did decide to ban MK nationally, it's highly probable other regions would quickly do the same. (idk about Japan though...but they're way too different ruleset wise to really worry about)

 

[Akaku94]

I think the stagelist opens up more with MK banned, but I'm pretty sure we'll never ban him. Between all the MK mains who won't give him up, the n00bs who would rather ban ten stages than one character, and the fact that we're in the last year of the Wii's life cycle before project Cafe (and presumably smash 4) hits shelves, it's just more trouble than it's worth...

Now then, with that out of the way, we should move back toward discussing stages instead of characters...

 

[popsofctown]

I think Halberd should be banned. One, it is Meta Knight's ship.

Just kidding. Halberd's random stage hazards are, as you'd expect, why I object to this stage. It's always had these hazards, but I think the impact is getting greater over time. Since the game is becoming more defensive and campier all the time, the cannon and laser's effect of blocking off part of the stage becomes more significant since one player can get pushed onto the other. The more fortunate player can take advantage of Brawl's great defensive options an capitalize on this. Laser and cannon showing up and telling projectile players "you can't camp here now" is a big swing too.

But the big one is the claw. The claw is roughly the equivalent of one player getting a free Nana forward air once in the match (Twice if it goes to time, probably). Shielding once mitigated the effect of the claw a lot, but the rise of Diddy and Snake makes people more aware and capable of setting up frame traps, so the claw is becoming guaranteed grabs instead of guaranteed shield damage. And for a lot of the cast, a grab is quite a big deal.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Powershield claw. Is extremely easy to do so.

And if you are camping, AKA, not focusing directly to your opponent, you can keep track of stage's hazards and will not impact your game.

 

[popsofctown]

Even powershielded you're at a disadvantage. Since you're going to power shield claw, your opponent can predict you'll be standing there power shielding at moment X. It's still a frame trap as far as I can tell. Claw is coming, you send a blue pikmin to go grab your opponent at the moment he's perfect shielding. Perfect shielding takes a frame but it's also a promise that you'll need a couple frames after that to perform actions that win against grabs.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Then roll away or hang the ledge, or airdodge or whatever, claw forces you to do something, but does not forces you to make mistakes. If can't addapt to claw, is not stage's fault.

There's another stand point about this issue, by setting a criteria (oh, SuSa, I miss you!!!).
"No hazards" would take away Halberd, Brinstar and a couple more.
That, however, would never become a standard.

 

[Tesh]

The Hazards on Halberd leave ALOT of options and time to avoid them. If we ban halberd over these, how would you justify having delfino, lylat or pokemon stadium legal. If reacting to a fairly warned chaning situation is bad, then we need to get rid of alot of stages.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think Halberd should be banned. One, it is Meta Knight's ship.

Just kidding. Halberd's random stage hazards are, as you'd expect, why I object to this stage. It's always had these hazards, but I think the impact is getting greater over time. Since the game is becoming more defensive and campier all the time, the cannon and laser's effect of blocking off part of the stage becomes more significant since one player can get pushed onto the other. The more fortunate player can take advantage of Brawl's great defensive options an capitalize on this. Laser and cannon showing up and telling projectile players "you can't camp here now" is a big swing too.

But the big one is the claw. The claw is roughly the equivalent of one player getting a free Nana forward air once in the match (Twice if it goes to time, probably). Shielding once mitigated the effect of the claw a lot, but the rise of Diddy and Snake makes people more aware and capable of setting up frame traps, so the claw is becoming guaranteed grabs instead of guaranteed shield damage. And for a lot of the cast, a grab is quite a big deal.

Randomness is only a problem if it leads to variance in results at the peak of the current metagame.

Halberd has not been shown to do this, thus, it should not be banned.

 

[NearZzz]

Why do you guys spend countless hours arguing over this stuff? That's not a rhetorical question.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why do you spend hours playing a fighting game?

Obviously we enjoy debating, lol.

 

[NearZzz]

I don't spend hours playing?

30 minutes at most

 

[-LzR-]

Thank you, we totally care.

 

[NearZzz]

You're welcome, you're totally cared about.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't spend hours playing?

30 minutes at most

I didn't necessarily mean successively. None of us debate for hours at a time with no gap, lol.

 

[Tesh]

I disagree Grim and I think we should discuss this further.

Does a Brawl set really take longer than a scuffle on a message board?

 

[WindMajor]

*looks at title*

*looks at discussion*

...

That's stage specific cause there are stages that I'll always time out in, like Castle Siege or Delfino Plaza. They should remain legal though, because they are both good stages.

 

[popsofctown]

Then roll away or hang the ledge, or airdodge or whatever, claw forces you to do something, but does not forces you to make mistakes. If can't addapt to claw, is not stage's fault.

There's another stand point about this issue, by setting a criteria (oh, SuSa, I miss you!!!).
"No hazards" would take away Halberd, Brinstar and a couple more.
That, however, would never become a standard.

These are all the best case scenario options, and the claw is still aiding your opponent's predictions. Worst case scenario is that you're currently being juggled, and suddenly guess whether you'll airdodge or aerial becomes "he has to airdodge", and you get naired once you come out of the airdodge.

The Hazards on Halberd leave ALOT of options and time to avoid them. If we ban halberd over these, how would you justify having delfino, lylat or pokemon stadium legal. If reacting to a fairly warned chaning situation is bad, then we need to get rid of alot of stages.

Delfino isn't random. Everything goes in order.

Pokemon stadium doesn't produce stage hazards so it doesn't force people towards eachother like the laser or create frame traps like the claw. (the claw breaks the changing situation bit completely, I hope you know, only one player has to deal with the situation)

I don't want to justify Lylat cruise, and I wouldn't be upset if it got banned.

Randomness is only a problem if it leads to variance in results at the peak of the current metagame.

Halberd has not been shown to do this, thus, it should not be banned.

It's terribly difficult to measure how many game outcomes Halberd has changed. Impossible, even.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Here is a good sign that it isn't that big of a deal: No one is complaining about it.

 

[DMG]

Delfino is random in that you aren't sure what part will come up.

It runs on a set track like a train, but it's not guaranteed to stop at location B instead of location G

 

[-LzR-]

But you have more than enough time to react to it if you keep an eye on the background.

 

[Tesh]

^ that was my point.

long before I knew anything about the order or set "track", I always noticed it hovered near each location before it landed. The warning is easily similar to Halberd and the stadiums. You could be in the same situation on both stages (recovering or on the ledge) and argue that the stage "forced" you to do something.

 

[popsofctown]

ok, i'm too overruled.

 

[Ghostbone]

Here is a good sign that it isn't that big of a deal: No one is complaining about it.

I am!
/salty

 

[ぱみゅ]

These are all the best case scenario options, and the claw is still aiding your opponent's predictions. Worst case scenario is that you're currently being juggled, and suddenly guess whether you'll airdodge or aerial becomes "he has to airdodge", and you get naired once you come out of the airdodge.

Doesn't sound any worse than MK's Uair spam to bait airdodges....

 

[popsofctown]

That's not a random element. Each player has an opportunity to pick Meta Knight and bait lots of air dodges. Only one player randomly gets the the claw.

Which is quite silly. It should always obey Meta Knight because it's his ship, and he doesn't have enough frame traps already.