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Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific
- Thread starter Amazing Ampharos
- Start date
Well the proper way to do this would be to give everyone more stage bans.
Give everyone 3-4 stage bans and you'll be hard-pressed to end up on a heavily polarized stage even with the most liberal stage-lists.
Giving everyone more stagebans would just harm everyone thats not MK alot more than just dealing with the MK issue.
What we need to do is add more rules limiting MK. Once we have maybe 20 or 30, playing MK will be so convoluted and stressful, that no one would even bother. Imagine having to space, mindgame, zone and recover while also dealing with keeping up with an LGL, CP restrictions, air time limit, ground move quota, tornado limit, nair time, mandatory dtilt spacing, the upair clause, auto loss on timeout, handicap AND your controller is only halfway plugged in while you must play with your feet while hanging upside down.
What we need to do is add more rules limiting MK. Once we have maybe 20 or 30, playing MK will be so convoluted and stressful, that no one would even bother. Imagine having to space, mindgame, zone and recover while also dealing with keeping up with an LGL, CP restrictions, air time limit, ground move quota, tornado limit, nair time, mandatory dtilt spacing, the upair clause, auto loss on timeout, handicap AND your controller is only halfway plugged in while you must play with your feet while hanging upside down.
You forgot forcing players to use the wiimote.
There's a difference between being good on a stage, and being completely dominant on a stage. If a stage allows a character to perform at a level above and beyond the rest, you don't sit there looking at the problem going "derp problem not found".
Do you beat MK's on Brinstar who plank, scrooge, shark, and abuse the properties of moves like Shuttle Loop and Tornado in a camping fashion? Anybody near you play ANYTHING like d4ba did? Cause, yeah you can beat characters on ridiculous stages if they don't abuse it. I can beat a Local Sonic player on Hyrule if he doesn't try to run away the whole time. Does that mean Hyrule is okie dokie? Of course not. Now, if I can consistently beat Sonic/Pit/MK/x character that runs away and show that the abuseable facet of the stage people are afraid of is actually not that bad, then sure you could say Hyrule isn't that bad. But someone disproving the identified flaws of Brinstar has not happened yet.
A few characters get free wins. In my book, Wario vs Snake on that stage is basically a free win. Aside from that, he really doesn't have any "autowin" matchups besides those he normally would have. Some of his matchups noticeably shift in his favor, but not past 65:35 or 7:3. Without a LGL I'd say G&W easily gets free wins on a lot of people: not because his regular planking is a problem, but because having a sharkable base for the stage allows him quite a bit of freedom and safety when playing keepaway. With a LGL, it's definitely not as easy, but he would still have easy wins or matchups around 65:35 / 7:3 on a fair portion of the cast.
The main abusers of the stage are characters who can shark (MK, G&W, Pit) or characters with incredible onstage mobility who are not affected at all by the layout (MK, Wario).
Well, depends on how you look at it. If MK is the only character who can abuse the stage to an unacceptable level, limiting him from picking those stages but letting other characters pick it would be a nice compromise. The only problem with that would be what to do if a MK player is CP'd there:
Say I'm playing M2K, he wins Game 1. I know that M2K can't CP me to Brinstar because of the rule. But what if I pick Brinstar? I'm not going MK obviously, but what happens to M2K? Is he allowed to stay as MK, or does he have to switch characters? If he has to switch characters, then I would pick Brinstar ALL the time so I could play his much worse characters and not have to deal with his MK for a game. On the other hand, if M2K is allowed to stay MK when I pick Brinstar, that would almost be the same as removing Brinstar from play. If your opponent can choose/stay as MK when you pick Brinstar, that's no different than it is now. You wouldn't purposefully CP him there. He also wouldn't pick the stage because then you could go MK and he would have to switch, or he'd have to switch regardless of who you choose. Unless you are matched up against a player who doesn't play MK, and your character has an advantage over his on Brinstar, the stage effectively would not see competitive play besides those rare instances.
If you use the first instance, it would be kinda unfair forcing a person to switch characters because of the stage you picked. If you use the second instance, Brinstar would basically be a trap. Pick Brinstar, allow opponent to go MK while you cannot, would make the stage sound near entirely unfeasible.
I have yet to play Grim on Brinstar apart from MK dittos (in which he destroyed me
) , so I'm not sure I've beaten an "extremely gay" MK on it before.Well an autowin match-up would imply 100-0, G&W definitely doesn't 100-0 anyone important on Brinstar, even without a LGL. (I can see Falco being really bad though, but hardly anything more than 7:3)
But anyway G&W and Wario don't really dominate on Brinstar anymore than Falco, Ice Climbers and Diddy dominate on FD imo.
(probably less so)
DMG, I will play like serious on Brinstar the next time. Gonna time em out. If I find it incredibly broken, it might be ban. The problem is that it's my favorite stage usually D:
Well I shouldn't be in bias. Gonna test tomorrow.
Well I shouldn't be in bias. Gonna test tomorrow.
ruin`
Smash Journeyman
zzzz we don't play your game zzzzzz
USA tactics FTW. Justwin Wong BABY!
USA tactics FTW. Justwin Wong BABY!
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I am so sigging this. <3
Gnes
Smash Master
For the record I've never beaten a mk on brinstar that actually instead of fighting me like an idiot chose to just shark, plank, and camp me from under the stage.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Potential noob moment: Why don't we just ban sharking? (A nice rule would be you cannot travel under the stage to the other side unless you are recovering.)
That's scrooging. (Sharking is when you attack through the bottom of the stage)
Also some tournaments do have rules against it, it's just they're really hard to enforce in my experience.
"I'm running away to a better position!"-not stalling, not punishable.
Also what's recovering and what isn't? Technically any movement back towards the stage would be considered recovering. Someone like Snake is recovering until they're basically back on the ground throwing nades at you.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Thanks for the correction.
Recovering: Returning to the stage after having been knocked off/after attempting to edgeguard. Faulty definition?
I mean, people often scrooge even when their opponent is literally in the middle/on the other side of the stage where they can't attack the scrooger. That is clearly stalling and not a recovery attempt. It doesn't seem like it would be too hard to distinguish between improving your position and simply stalling.
Recovering: Returning to the stage after having been knocked off/after attempting to edgeguard. Faulty definition?
I mean, people often scrooge even when their opponent is literally in the middle/on the other side of the stage where they can't attack the scrooger. That is clearly stalling and not a recovery attempt. It doesn't seem like it would be too hard to distinguish between improving your position and simply stalling.
Maybe.
Is gliding to a better position stalling though? It's safer for MK to be on the smashville platform dair camping then anywhere else really, it's not stalling in the traditional sense.
And as I said in my experience it's hard for it to be enforced, due to the TO probably not seeing it (can't watch every match), and not being able to define exactly what's too much scrooging and what isn't.
Is gliding to a better position stalling though? It's safer for MK to be on the smashville platform dair camping then anywhere else really, it's not stalling in the traditional sense.
And as I said in my experience it's hard for it to be enforced, due to the TO probably not seeing it (can't watch every match), and not being able to define exactly what's too much scrooging and what isn't.
Cubelarooso
Smash Lord
How about this: In any match against Metaknight, the opponent is given a sword first?
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Another noob moment: What's a TO? (I'm assuming it stands for tournament operator at this point). And I thought major tournies had refs? Sorry if I'm mistaken, I've yet to enter the competitive scene.
I don't see how any extended gliding other than for recovery purposes would not be considered stalling, and typically gliding from the stage to a better position on the stage is slower than running and jumping. Yes, gliding under and around the stage IS getting into a "better" position if you have the advantage, but it is stalling nonetheless.
And I thought the penalties for stalling were:
first offense: warning
second offense: loss of stock
third offense: forfeit the game
I remember reading that somewhere but I can't remember where
I'm not trying to provide a method to prevent stalling in general, I'm speaking specifically of scrooging. I mean, Apex LF Brood vs M2K game 3, that was just pathetic. I'm not trying to disrespect M2K because he was just using the ruleset to his advantage, I'd do it too in such a situation. I'm just saying the ruleset should be changed.
I don't see how any extended gliding other than for recovery purposes would not be considered stalling, and typically gliding from the stage to a better position on the stage is slower than running and jumping. Yes, gliding under and around the stage IS getting into a "better" position if you have the advantage, but it is stalling nonetheless.
And I thought the penalties for stalling were:
first offense: warning
second offense: loss of stock
third offense: forfeit the game
I remember reading that somewhere but I can't remember where
I'm not trying to provide a method to prevent stalling in general, I'm speaking specifically of scrooging. I mean, Apex LF Brood vs M2K game 3, that was just pathetic. I'm not trying to disrespect M2K because he was just using the ruleset to his advantage, I'd do it too in such a situation. I'm just saying the ruleset should be changed.
The trouble is there isn't much of a way to ban sharking without the rule being pretty subjective. People are also wary of having another rule specifically targetting MK. And if it doesn't target MK, then you wind up screwing alot of characters over for no reason. I personally love to shark on Delfino and Halberd with Sonic.
Basically all the most effective solutions, people aren't willing to use them.
Basically all the most effective solutions, people aren't willing to use them.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
L2p on pictochat, noob.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Now I hope everyone understands my qualms with pictochat. There was not nearly enough warning for that to be reacted to.
What a scrub. He should have stayed in the safe zone. The MK was skilled to pressure him off the stage knowing that the line might pop up. Should we ban FD now because people get stuck under the ledge!?
Learn to play on stages people, this isn't street fighter!!
I was told that transformations appear and disappear every 13.33 seconds. If this is true, technically, you just need to make yourself aware every 26.66 seconds.
That was proven not to be true Reflex. Some time back in 2009, someone did some horribly lazy research and guessed. Then people took his word for it and believed that Pictochat was legit. There is no set timer. Transformations can hang around for 7-15 seconds and they also don't appear on a timer. The only thing that is useless information that can be skillfully used is that once a transformation pops up, it can't pop up until all 27 are used up (which is unlikely in an 8 minute match).
Well, that's ****ty.
Still, it's one of my favorite stages. Better not go for that left ledge when there's no transformation. :o
I love the stage too. Its kind of a shame that its so horrible competitively though. As many of you know, Sonic has this annoying glitch with his spindash on Yoshis island and Pictochat making it a pretty hard CP for him in many matchups. Having both of these legal makes it a huge pain to deal with in a 2/3 set. So I personally love having pictochat legal.
However, the stage sucks competitively because it can just screw people over horribly with no warning. That Falco was down by less than 50% and could have won the game if not for the ledge going away like that.
However, the stage sucks competitively because it can just screw people over horribly with no warning. That Falco was down by less than 50% and could have won the game if not for the ledge going away like that.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Someone can be down by less than 50% and lose because of a Stitch Face, 9 Hammer, etc... as well.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
After playing a few matches on WarioWare... It's not as bad as everyone thinks :/
Someone can be down by less than 50% and die from a bomb spawning in front of his jab.
If that is your logic for Pictochat being okay then we should turn items on too.
I actually feel WarioWare is just as legit as Pictochat. Its got a nice balance of risk/reward for winning games AND its far far more predictable. Invincibility does not make it as easy as people think to destroy people. It shouldn't be legal, but if Pictochat is, you might as well....
If that is your logic for Pictochat being okay then we should turn items on too.
I actually feel WarioWare is just as legit as Pictochat. Its got a nice balance of risk/reward for winning games AND its far far more predictable. Invincibility does not make it as easy as people think to destroy people. It shouldn't be legal, but if Pictochat is, you might as well....
This
It's comparable to the randomness on Picto.
(which for me, based on the example reflex showed, the dedede vs snake video, and my own personal experiences on the stage, should be banned)
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I'm not using it to try and say Picto should be legal, I'm using it to say that we should have Peach's down special banned.
bla bla bla player initiated bla bla bla....
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
So is PictoChat, you initiate it's randomness by counter-picking it.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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You can see and react to these to avoid them.
So is Warioware.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
The point isn't how difficult they are to avoid.
If I was playing as Peach, pulling a bob-omb or a stich face could win me a game I wouldn't have won otherwise.
That isn't competitive.
Both have a large impact on the game, you just notice Pictochat's randomness more because the impact is apparent much faster.
Pictochat has some impact on my matches pretty rarely. The randomness is controllable. A stupid wall appearing somewhere is comparable to the other character becoming giant and the other on invincible? Wtf >_>
Also why is YI acceptable then.
Also why is YI acceptable then.
YI lets both players react and adapt to the change, Picto doesn't.
Uhh, nooo....
When the ghost saves someone both players now can adapt to the change.
On picto the left ledge disappears before the line even appears, and the hitbox for the spikes (the ones on the sides of the stage) appears before (or just as) they appear. They can't be reacted to at all.
(I've had experience with this, hit someone to the right of the stage and they've been spiked down as the spikes instantly appear)
I'm pretty sure the walls for all the drawings appear very quickly as well....
Plus the ghosts on YI can be reasonably planned for.
It's unreasonable to expect players to keep up with everything on Picto.