Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Grim Tuesday]

A wise man once said "Don't start nothin, won't be nothin".

He sounds like a quite intelligent person.

I'm not getting into this here, the current discussion is Brinstar... Though I think I've pretty much wrapped it up with my previous posts.

 

[-LzR-]

Enough with you two... Why does everything where people have different views need to turn into a personal namecalling session?

 

[Ghostbone]

-Counterpicking
-Banning stages
-Banning items
-Banning glitches
-Banning stalling tactics
-Three stocks/Five stocks only
-Banning the use of the same stage twice in a match set
-Match sets PERIOD

Last time I checked, none of these rules were part of the game either.

There is a 'loser's pick' option for stages.
Though I think we shouldn't have character counter-picking anyway.

Yep

We don't ban them, turning them off is part of the game.

Yep. (I'd like to point out that banning EDC isn't properly enforceable though :/)

Yep

Erm, that's part of the game.

Yep

That has nothing to do with actual gameplay though?


But yea SSBB is a casual game, there are certain things we must do to have it competitive. Which involves banning most stages, and limiting stalling tactics.
Unfortunately there's the problem of when do we draw the line about arbitrary rules added to the game.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Enough with you two... Why does everything where people have different views need to turn into a personal namecalling session?

You say that as if I didn't try and stop the name-calling session from occurring

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People can cut the "Well you said blah blah, therefore your opinion is worthless" crap now.

So both of you, drop it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

People can cut the "Well you said blah blah, therefore your opinion is worthless" crap now.

So both of you, drop it.

We did... a few posts ago >_>

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No, he stopped posting for the moment.

Either way I don't care, I'm going to remind people that insults and such aren't going to be tolerated.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hm, fair enough.

So, is everyone satisfied with Brinstar yet? I want to get talking about some of the borderline stages but I don't want to steer this off-topic if we aren't done.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

they could just avoid going down there when there is lava

...And that forces them into a position that you can hit them?

 

[Albert.]

Why are insults no longer tolerated? They add spice and veracity to peoples' rants!

I miss the old Smashbords, not this "smash is for sensitive grade-schoolers" bulls***.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I miss the old Smashbords, not this "smash is for sensitive grade-schoolers" bulls***.

...

You joined in 2008...

Is there something I'm missing here?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

...And that forces them into a position that you can hit them?

It depends on where you are and whether or not you are also trying to run away from the lava

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It depends on where you are and whether or not you are also trying to run away from the lava

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If you and your opponent are on opposite sides of the stage and the lava is rising, it would be stupid to try to challenge the opponent for the platform closest to him. Therefore in that situation, you opponent will most likely go unpunished

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you are on opposite sides of the stage and the lava is rising, it would be stupid to try to challenge the opponent for the platform closest to him.

If the Meta Knight is planking or scrooging, THAT is the problem.

If the stage stops him from planking or scrooging frequently, it's NO LONGER a problem.

-----

What are people's thoughts on Distant Planet currently? It doesn't seem like a borderline counter-pick to me at all, I'd rank it up there with Delfino or even Frigate.

 

[Ghostbone]

Don't be on the opposite side of the stage when you see the lava rising then, you have a pretty long warning, and you should also know the general pattern of the stage.

Not to mention a lot of characters have projectiles or items to challenge the opponent.

Like if you're snake you can cook some grenades and throw them.

If you're diddy you can renew your bananas and shoot some peanuts.

Falco can fire lasers.
etc.

 

[WindMajor]

People think Distant Planet should be banned because the walk-off is permanent and because the tiny patch of dirt under the main platform is broken.

In other words, people think Distant Planet should be banned because LOL IT'S DISTANT PLANET BAN PLZ.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If the Meta Knight is planking or scrooging, THAT is the problem.

If the stage stops him from planking or scrooging frequently, it's NO LONGER a problem.

-----

What are people's thoughts on Distant Planet currently? It doesn't seem like a borderline counter-pick to me at all, I'd rank it up there with Delfino or even Frigate.

It doesn't stop him from planking or scrooging Frequently. He can still scrooge and plank for 3/5 of the match which is pretty much when ever the lava doesn't touch the stage.

 

[Ghostbone]

The rain will solve all your problems >.>

 

[WindMajor]

Except for the part where the stage is called Distant Planet, which is a synonym for ban this ****.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Except for the part where the stage is called Distant Planet, which is a synonym for ban this ****.

This is one of the many reasons why I have very little tolerance for conservatives.

 

[Ghostbone]

Distant Planet is banned because Delfino Plaza already took its acronym.

Obviously.

 

[WindMajor]

That's the reason why I only lurk this forum.

Anyways, new question. Is there anything wrong with Jungle Japes?

 

[Blacknight99923]

@ grim fandango

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RQ8XSn9Rvw


this is why mario bros is not legal. and why you either lack common sense or understanding of this game

here we can see how tearbear could abuse the stage by utilizing its layout and knowledge of its hazards.

While most matches on this stage will likely not turn into a JV 4 stock like this one its fairly clear how we can see it being abused. Even in situations raffi could have avoided getting ***** by the hazards tearbear still had stage positional advantages that made approuching dangerous.

edit-metaknight can scrooge on brinstar however there really isn't application for it when he can shark which generally puts him in a more advantagous position if he choses and allows him to get back on stage more quickly.



if you want to scroog I recomend picking frigate orpheon, the time it takes you to glide under the second half of the stage is longer than that of smashville and you don't even have to go above the stage. Not only that but when one of the side platforms goes off into the blast zone and you scrooge you pretty much arrive at the other side when the other platform comes out, and considering how far off stage and how low you can perform this at I can't see how anyone would want to risk trying to punish this.

frigate scrooging = not going above the ledge or needing to grab it to continually stall. However on the first segment this is not possible, however he gains a rather large advantage regarding gimping there.

 

[Ghostbone]

Falco is teh brokenz lololol

Nope.

Well there's the non-random klaptrap but it's non-random..........

Edit: I like how the sonic didn't know how to play on the stage at all.

 

[WindMajor]

@ grim fandango

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RQ8XSn9Rvw


this is why mario bros is not legal. and why you either lack common sense or understanding of this game

here we can see how tearbear could abuse the stage by utilizing its layout and knowledge of its hazards.

While most matches on this stage will likely not turn into a JV 4 stock like this one its fairly clear how we can see it being abused. Even in situations raffi could have avoided getting ***** by the hazards tearbear still had stage positional advantages that made approuching dangerous.

Wow was the Sonic's controller even plugged in? Did he even try? I refuse to accept that as proof that the stage needs to be banned.

The Sonic clearly had no idea what he was doing. There was no initial dash for the first item. When the Wolf slowly walked towards him the first time, Sonic made no attempt to move away, instead, he approached an opponent with an item UNARMED. When the Sonic tried to grab the item but couldn't, he made an escape that landed him 2ft next to where he was originally. On the third stock, we walked right by the free item and decided to rush the opponent who already had an item in his hands.

The deaths looked silly, but the video isn't proof of anything other than people have to learn how to play on this stage if they expect to win.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Wow was the Sonic's controller even plugged in? Did he even try? I refuse to accept that as proof that the stage needs to be banned.

The Sonic clearly had no idea what he was doing. There was no initial dash for the first item. When the Wolf slowly walked towards him the first time, Sonic made no attempt to move away, instead, he approached an opponent with an item UNARMED. When the Sonic tried to grab the item but couldn't, he made an escape that landed him 2ft next to where he was originally. On the third stock, we walked right by the free item and decided to rush the opponent who already had an item in his hands.

The deaths looked silly, but the video isn't proof of anything other than people have to learn how to play on this stage if they expect to win.

Its more of a lol than actual proof. I'm sure you can understand the actual premise of posting the video.

I don't see how I need to post an essay on why this stage is absolutely horrible to play on when I spend 25$ to go to a tournament.

 

[WindMajor]

At this point in time, no amount of text will convince me, if you know what I mean.

But I'm not asking to be convinced. I'm just a lurker.

 

[Blacknight99923]

you are not a lurker, you've posted at around times in the last 10 pages

stop hiding from the truth!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

There was a whole thread on this, we came to the conclusion that Falco and Pit are probably broken here and that's that.

Now: Distant Planet

Why do people have such negative connotations towards it? It's a VERY good stage as far as I can see.

 

[Ghostbone]

Why do people have such negative connotations towards it? It's a VERY good stage as far as I can see.

Mostly flawed logic.
Things like:

"This stage has items, we ban items so the stage must be banned"
I didn't know we banned items, I'll remind my TO to DQ Diddy mains when they pull out a banana.

"There's a circle"
That literally every character except possibly Ganon can intercept.

"There's a permanent walk-off"
Good luck camping that when people can hit your shield and slide extremely far, or staying there once the rain comes.

"Camping under the leaf is broken"
No proof, plus you have items to attack somebody sitting in that position.

 

[-LzR-]

I guess I need to test that stage a little more. Finland's stagelist is already liberal enough thought, but I'll see about that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've seen Pit's and MK's plank and scrooge the living hell out of Distant Planet. I don't even think most characters can deal with it here because the stage give an additional edge to grab with a small platform.

That and people sitting under the part on the left that is under the platform, it's hard to get people out of there without outplaying them.

Walloff camping can be high risk high reward but eh, that isn't legit in itself per say.

DDD and Yoshi's shenanigans here that might be another story. Just a few details here and there.

I probably need a vid.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Just FYI, "normal" planking; the kind you can't do very long without accumulating a ton of ledgegrabs, should not be considered a problem because every tournament ever has LGLs.

 

[WindMajor]

@Blacknight It would be easier to lurk if you didn't call me out so much!!!!

high risk high reward but eh, that isn't legit in itself per say.

Can you explain?

High risk/high reward is pretty much do or die. If you do it, you deserve to win it, if you lose, well you died taking that risk. I don't see how that's illegitimate.

 

[Albert.]

Wait, people actually considered Mario Bros?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Only a few theorycrafting masters... Don't equate them with most of us.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If the Meta Knight is planking or scrooging, THAT is the problem.

If the stage stops him from planking or scrooging frequently, it's NO LONGER a problem.

-----

What are people's thoughts on Distant Planet currently? It doesn't seem like a borderline counter-pick to me at all, I'd rank it up there with Delfino or even Frigate.

It doesn't stop him from planking or scrooging Frequently. He can still scrooge and plank for 3/5 of the match which is pretty much when ever the lava doesn't touch the stage.

this

 

[WindMajor]

Only a few theorycrafting masters... Don't equate them with most of us.

More like a few theorycrafting-masters-that-didn't-want-to-rely-solely-on-theory-but-evidence-was-never-presented-so-nothing-could-ever-be-proven-or-disproven-then-people-started-trolling-the-thread-and-then-the-thread-got-closed-so-everyone-stopped.

Back to lurking for sure this time.

 

[DMG]

Distant Planet: Probably should be banned. Camping exploits on this stage are a bit heavy: take Sonic for example. Get a lead on someone, and go to the lower end of the walkoff. If someone approaches you from the left, spin jump to the right and get on grass platform. If they go off the grass platform on the right side and come down towards the walkoff edge, run up the walkoff. If you are at the top of the walkoff and they come, spin jump over them (easier to get away with this because you already start at a higher vertical position than them due to the slope). If they are trying to stop you from going over them from where you are at the top of the walkoff, you now have a slope to run down (most characters if they are trying to stop Sonic from going over them, have to go airborne with a full jump or more to do so. Doing this allows you to easily go under them, even if they fastfall) From the grass platform, you can maneuver back over it, under it to the slope, under it back to the platform, etc.


Or take Wario: I can start from the top of the walkoff, jump and Bike to reach a position nothing but maybe a Sonic Spring or a Pikachu thunder could reach me, while having the flexibility to maneuver completely around to my liking. I can go to the right, not touch the ground, go past the grass platform completely, pass by the edge and choose to grab it or keep going, have the option to grab the slope edge or go onto the slope without grabbing it OR going through the bottom of the grass platform OR deciding to go back and grab that grass platform edge, etc.


If my opponent wants to stop most of those options, and heads towards the grass platform, while I am up in the air I also have the option of going back to the top of the slope. It's easier for me to reach there than my opponent because the top of the slope is at a noticeably higher position than the grass platform. Another thing that benefits me is that if you start on the grass platform, and want to chase me to the slope, you HAVE to go airborne in some way or form to get off the platform and get towards the slope. Going into the air, where Wario moves faster horizontally than 95% of the cast, means you can't use a fast run or dash to keep up with me. This "forced" air entry is a big reason why he's extremely gay on Norfair (and to a lesser extent Brinstar): how can you catch a character who is almost guaranteed to be faster than you in the air, if you have to go into the air to traverse from platform to platform or from section to section? There's no room for running faster than I move, so you are forced to play my game and come into the air for long enough to be outmaneuvered over and over.


About the rain: the rain as far as camping is concerned is completely double edged. I laugh at the people who see the rain as something that completely destroys camping the slope, because they tend to also miss the fact that the rain takes away a lot of offensive options to stop it. Say I'm on the slope, the rain comes blah blah blah, so I fall to the slope edge. Now what? How can you reach me if I decide to stay on the edge for as long as possible? I'm not talking about constantly regrabbing the edge either wasting LG's, just grab it 1-2 times and sit there. Going the slope way would be dangerous for a lot of characters. You can't sit on the slope and throw projectiles down. You could go off the grass platform right side and move through the air to the slope edge, but that still allows the person on the edge to move up to the grass platform with no real resistance on your part (that and now you're under the grass platform trying to get somewhere).



Distant Planet basically is a twisted version of Cat and Mouse: the Mouse has to catch the Cat. Outdoors. With trees and sh** in the way. GG Mouse... GG