Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Grim Tuesday]

Ah, but Smashville is different. As you stated, he does similar things through planking and scrooging. Those two tactics already have come "under fire" and tend to be limited to prevent stalling from taking place. A Ledge Grab Limit for example addresses planking (whether it does a good job or not is to be seen), and I personally know a few TO's who've added scrooging or "flying under stage" limits/rules concerning those things.

Now, let MK be able to put himself in similarly powerful situations... Without edge grabbing, and without needing to go completely crossed under the stage to do so. Now what? That's basically Brinstar compared to Smashville. 1 stage with 2 tactics that tend to be regulated or limited, vs the other stage where you can "circumvent" those regulations and limitations through different tactic abuses.

Ban Meta Knight from picking Brinstar?

 

[DMG]

I see where you are going with this.

In that case, ban all stages and force people to play on custom stages.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I see where you are going with this.

Huh? There was no deeper meaning behind my post. I'm just saying that it would solve your problem of Meta Knight being broken there.

In that case, ban all stages and force people to play on custom stages.

Why? That'd be stupid.

Who wants to play on Custom Stages?, they're so bland.

 

[DMG]

Bland? I have custom stages with warps and boobies and Teemo's.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Bland? I have custom stages with warps and boobies and Teemo's.

Hilarious.

I still fail to see the correlation between my suggestion of banning Meta Knight on Brinstar and banning every stage excluding customs.

 

[Ghostbone]

When you have to:

1.Completely ban a certain tactic.

2.Limit a few other tactics.

3.Disallow stage selection.

Maybe you should consider that it's the character that's broken and not those tactics/stages?

Just saying.

Especially when you're unfairly nerfing other characters when those tactics aren't broken at all for them.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

When you have to:

1.Completely ban a certain tactic.

2.Limit a few other tactics.

3.Disallow stage selection.

Maybe you should consider that it's the character that's broken and not those tactics/stages?

Just saying.

But is the character broken with those limitations?

 

[Ghostbone]

But is the character broken with those limitations?

Maybe. The character still over-centralizes the metagame around himself.

Not to mention it opens the door to a whole lot of other rules.

Why not ban IC's blizzard against Ganon?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Maybe. The character still over-centralizes the metagame around himself.

Not if you limit him to the point where all of his MUs aren't in his favour.

Why not ban IC's blizzard against Ganon?

Good question. Can you find a reason? I can't.

 

[Ghostbone]

Not if you limit him to the point where all of his MUs aren't in his favour.



Good question. Can you find a reason?

I mean sure if we ban all his specials and force his players to use the wiimote he would have bad match-ups.....

But then why don't we just look at every match-up and decide which moves should be usable or not to keep them as close to 50-50 as possible?

Because as I've told you, that's creating our own game, which we should try to do as little as possible of.

 

[DMG]

I like creating our own game.

I strike Wario, and ban Jigglypuff.

 

[Ghostbone]

I like creating our own game.

I strike Wario, and ban Jigglypuff.

Yay let's give everyone character bans!

Inb4everyonebansMK

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I like creating our own game.

I strike Wario, and ban Jigglypuff.

You say this like we haven't already been creating our own game for 3 years now.

 

[-LzR-]

Yay for Grim having a point. Also DMG, why should the stage be banned when MK himself can't be? And it's kinda like FD with IC, you can't run away. In Brinstar, you can't catch him.

You see if the match didn't go to time but would still be **** for MK there wouldn't be a problem but 99% of smashers tend to see timeouts as broken and cheap tactic.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Albert calm down.

The difference is, people can and have beaten ICs on FD by doing the things people have said, not getting grabbed, separating them, correct spacing.

With MK it seems to be a lot harder. Nothing is wrong with timeouts unless it turns degenerate.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Brinstar lets players get away with sharking and scrooging because of the way that it is built. It is small and has these two things (I'm not too sure what they are called) that connect the entire stage to the two outer platforms. The small size makes it easy for the character who is sharking to cover most of the stage while using a minimal amount of jumps. The two things that connect the platforms to the stage protect them from any projectiles that might hit them as they are trying to get beck on stage. Any player who is forced to break these things (what are they called?) is automatically put at a disadvantage since they are forced to do more work to even out the playing field. This is what makes these tactics more broken here than in any other stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...Scrooging? Really? And what about the consistent rising lava?

 

[Akaku94]

Jebus, that made no sense... But the point is that you simply cannot ban a stage because of a single character! The very fact that we are debating banning Brinstar just because of MK shows that he is overcentralizing! Besides, if we can't ban the character, don't ban the stage! It's pretty simple, guys...

 

[UberMario]

1)...really, how is it not extreme when I'm at 145% and he has a fresh stock. Like, even if i'm playing snake, thats....yeah....

I meant once he got the stock lead after his first kill.

2)yes, i tried to attack him instead of camping him which would have led to nothing since I didn't have the lead. Or maybe u suggest i grab him from under the platform...I'm really not understanding what u think should be happening when he places himself in a perfect defensive position.

Projectile spam, the peanuts could have been used to either get him off the platform [either aggressively or defensively], safely rack up damage on him while the clock ticked (so that he'd be at a point [i.e. 160%-200%, which is what it took anyway] that a physical aerial would only need to connect once to finish his stock.

3) Bananas are fine, if he was on the ground...besides if he just jumps out the way, I'm then defenseless.

They still have a bit of hitstun in the air that can be used to help get an aerial in, and at the very least, the MK would need to at least try to catch/powershield/avoid it, opening the door either way.

4)The monkey flip kick is OBVIOUSLY being used to get back on stage

It looked more aggressive to me, but it's not like there's a way for me to prove that.

as was the airdodge after being juggled.

If you're referring to the airdodge I was talking about, you were already directly above the middle platform.

5)I dont think Dmg is arguing tech abuses, but more just general abuse mk does on that stage. I agree when he has the lead, mk if he does it right(though d4ba fought me sometimes and took risks) can be untouchable on the stage.

6) Oh shizzz, ur right.(4:05) I WAS AT 119% not 120%...

You said 150%, I wouldn't argue over something as petty as 1% like you're claiming. >_>

7)U try catching a runaway mk on brinstar. And yes i killed him and it was 4 minutes left. 4 minutes left for me to chase him around brinstar while not only the hazards and the stage layout helping him run, but he already has more than a stock lead. Instead of doing that, I chose to save my energy for match 3, where i won pretty easily. Regardless the times I hit him were when he chose to be aggro at the wrong times, had he just kept up his defensive play he would have won by a even larger margin.

I guess I can't argue with that, it is difficult to catch him there, but I was only saying that it'd probably have been more in your favor to play more defensively (while using projectiles) at that point until there were only 2 minutes left, and then heat it up at that point.


That's all I wanted to say about it, my intention wasn't to critique that particular match, it was just to counter DMG's claim that this was the type of stage that deserves banning, since he used that particular video for proof.

I like creating our own game.

I strike Wario, and ban Jigglypuff.

-Counterpicking
-Banning stages
-Banning items
-Banning glitches
-Banning stalling tactics
-Three stocks/Five stocks only
-Banning the use of the same stage twice in a match set
-Match sets PERIOD

Last time I checked, none of these rules were part of the game either.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You said 150%, I wouldn't argue over something as petty as 1% like you're claiming. >_>

You said in your last post "You weren't even at 120%!" that's what he was referring to.

Just FYI.

 

[Life]

Just to nitpick, items aren't banned, they are turned off, which is an in-game option.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I really don't see what the whole issue is.

If we feel, as a community, Meta Knight is too powerful on Brinstar, then we will ban MK going to Brinstar. Simple as that.

If we don't, then we leave it as it is now.

If he really is as broken there as you guys are saying, the results are obviously going to reflect that. Bring this up again when 7 of the top 8 in the next major main Meta Knight.

 

[DMG]

^^^ This assuming that Brinstar will not be banned for those matches, and that when played on the stage they actually play in such a manner. Sure if you complete that checklist and nothing happens, you'll get 10 points for Hufflepuff.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^^^ This assuming that Brinstar will not be banned for those matches, and that when played on the stage they actually play in such a manner. Sure if you complete that checklist and nothing happens, you'll get 10 points for Hufflepuff.

If Brinstar is banned for every single match against Meta Knight, then that should be a pretty clear indicator too.

And if the players don't play in a way that breaks the stage, then the stage won't be proven broken or even played in a manner which is broken, simple as that.

 

[Albert.]

I can't believe that UberMario is trying to tell Gnes how to play diddy. holy ****.

If Brinstar is banned for every single match against Meta Knight, then that should be a pretty clear indicator too.

Brinstar IS often banned against MK. not 100% of the time but people generally ban either Brin or Rainbow against MK.


It's like I'm trying to explain that the sun is bright.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Brinstar IS often banned against MK. not 100% of the time but people generally ban either Brin or Rainbow against MK.

It's like I'm trying to explain that the sun is bright.

Then go ahead and ban Meta Knight from picking Brinstar at any tournaments you run! Spread the word of how broken he is there to other TOs too!

If the community believes he is as broken on Brinstar as you're saying, they'll adopt your rule and the standard will change.

If that doesn't happen? Deal with it.

 

[DMG]

That doesn't mean the stage is truly acceptable though. If you don't play in a fashion that breaks the stage, then nearly any stage in the game could be allowed with that kind of thinking. If you don't abuse circle loops, cave of life's, walkoff camping, etc you can have solid matches on the stages in question. But you don't base stage legality off of players, you base it off of what the stage allows.


Take Temple for example. This stage allows some clearly broken things to transpire over the course of a match, that's obvious. But what do you do if no one goes that far to abuse it? If there are no timeouts or abuses from players on the stage, does that mean the stage is fine? Depends on whether you are looking at stage attributes or "Well I don't see M2K timing out DEHF here, must be a solid choice".

You can't accurately predict how far players will go on stages. I predicted awhile back that American players would start to play extremely gay: not too long ago I saw an EC Grand finals with ADHD and Nairo with characters like Mario/Snake being used. BUT, what you can accurately do is look at stage attributes and judge whether or not the stage is suitable for competitive play.


I don't need Major tournaments lopsided over and over for me to realize that Brinstar is a bad stage. I don't need M2K beating some other MK in Grand Finals time and time again on Hyrule for me to understand "Well that stage sucks". I don't need MK dittos rampant with IDC deciding who wins every time, to find out "I guess having IDC legal is unacceptable." All that I need, to look at any of those things and determine whether they are acceptable or not, is good judgment.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That doesn't mean the stage is truly acceptable though. If you don't play in a fashion that breaks the stage, then nearly any stage in the game could be allowed with that kind of thinking. If you don't abuse circle loops, cave of life's, walkoff camping, etc you can have solid matches on the stages in question. But you don't base stage legality off of players, you base it off of what the stage allows.

Take Temple for example. This stage allows some clearly broken things to transpire over the course of a match, that's obvious. But what do you do if no one goes that far to abuse it? If there are no timeouts or abuses from players on the stage, does that mean the stage is fine? Depends on whether you are looking at stage attributes or "Well I don't see M2K timing out DEHF here, must be a solid choice".

Well if people aren't going to abuse the broken mechanics, then there isn't anything wrong with the stage until people do. I'm not saying those mechanics don't exist, I'm saying "Well, we aren't actually losing any depth by playing on this stage, so why get rid of it?"

You can't accurately predict how far players will go on stages. I predicted awhile back that American players would start to play extremely gay: not too long ago I saw an EC Grand finals with ADHD and Nairo with characters like Mario/Snake being used. BUT, what you can accurately do is look at stage attributes and judge whether or not the stage is suitable for competitive play.

I don't need Major tournaments lopsided over and over for me to realize that Brinstar is a bad stage. I don't need M2K beating some other MK in Grand Finals time and time again on Hyrule for me to understand "Well that stage sucks". I don't need MK dittos rampant with IDC deciding who wins every time, to find out "I guess having IDC legal is unacceptable." All that I need, to look at any of those things and determine whether they are acceptable or not, is good judgment.

There are things that are obvious, and there are things that aren't.

If everyone shared your view that Brinstar is so obviously broken, it would be universally banned.

Just like Temple.

Just like IDC.

 

[Tesh]

That doesn't mean the stage is truly acceptable though. If you don't play in a fashion that breaks the stage, then nearly any stage in the game could be allowed with that kind of thinking. If you don't abuse circle loops, cave of life's, walkoff camping, etc you can have solid matches on the stages in question. But you don't base stage legality off of players, you base it off of what the stage allows.


Take Temple for example. This stage allows some clearly broken things to transpire over the course of a match, that's obvious. But what do you do if no one goes that far to abuse it? If there are no timeouts or abuses from players on the stage, does that mean the stage is fine? Depends on whether you are looking at stage attributes or "Well I don't see M2K timing out DEHF here, must be a solid choice".

You can't accurately predict how far players will go on stages. I predicted awhile back that American players would start to play extremely gay: not too long ago I saw an EC Grand finals with ADHD and Nairo with characters like Mario/Snake being used. BUT, what you can accurately do is look at stage attributes and judge whether or not the stage is suitable for competitive play.


I don't need Major tournaments lopsided over and over for me to realize that Brinstar is a bad stage. I don't need M2K beating some other MK in Grand Finals time and time again on Hyrule for me to understand "Well that stage sucks". I don't need MK dittos rampant with IDC deciding who wins every time, to find out "I guess having IDC legal is unacceptable." All that I need, to look at any of those things and determine whether they are acceptable or not, is good judgment.

So much common sense in this post.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

...Scrooging? Really? And what about the consistent rising lava?

they could just avoid going down there when there is lava

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So much common sense in this post.

Coming from the person who was trying to compare Pictochat to Wario Ware? I don't think you have any place to talk about common sense.

 

[Gnes]

I can't believe that UberMario is trying to tell Gnes how to play diddy. holy sh1t.




Brinstar IS often banned against MK. not 100% of the time but people generally ban either Brin or Rainbow against MK.


It's like I'm trying to explain that the sun is bright.

LOL he's just stating general stuff, which i have no problem it. Just trust me when I state peanuts are not gonna make a mk who has the lead approach. Neither would me playing defensive considering defensive play is used to counter aggresive play. D4ba had NO reason to be aggro after getting the lead, and did what a mk should do when he has the lead. Diddy has no solid approach against mk, and his strength is that he can create walls between him and mk. But enough of that.

I also did go back and see I stated "150/or so". The meaning for that was to state i was at death percentages plus being at a disadvantage stock wise and stage wise i chose at that moment to start conserving my energy for my cp. But that misunderstanding was my fault, so my bad .

Grim is right in a sense, if the player's themselves aren't willing as a whole to show how broken a stage is by playing "gay", then it'll never be proven. It's the same argument that's been in countless threads before this one.

I only wish people would record more mks that know the stage playing there. It's a entirely different world.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Grim is right in a sense, if the player's themselves aren't willing as a whole to show how broken a stage is by playing "gay", then it'll never be proven. It's the same argument that's been in countless threads before this one.

Thanks Gnes :D

 

[Tesh]

Coming from the person who was trying to compare Pictochat to Wario Ware? I don't think you have any place to talk about common sense.

Coming from the person that wanted people to take Mario Bros. serously? I don't think you have any place to talk about me talking about common sense.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Coming from the person that wanted people to take Mario Bros. serously? I don't think you have any place to talk about me talking about common sense.

The ignorance of this post is astounding.

Mario Bros. was, as far as I could see, a legitimately competitive stage when I brought it up for discussion. After many pages of discussion we decided that Pit and Falco are over-powered there, which isn't immediately apparent.

Your Wario Ware argument earlier though was so ridiculously flawed... The two situations here can't even be prepared.

 

[Tesh]

The ignorance of this post is astounding.

Mario Bros. was, as far as I could see, a legitimately competitive stage when I brought it up for discussion. After many pages of discussion we decided that Pit and Falco are over-powered there, which isn't immediately apparent.

Your Wario Ware argument earlier though was so ridiculously flawed... The two situations here can't even be prepared.

Clearly you didn't see very far. Interesting that you just made a comment to DMG about some things being obvious. A stage overcentralized around projectiles would obviously be overcentralized around mobile projectile spamming characters with reflectors. THAT WAS OBVIOUS, among other things.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Clearly you didn't see very far. Interesting that you just made a comment to DMG about some things being obvious. A stage overcentralized around projectiles would obviously be overcentralized around mobile projectile spamming characters with reflectors. THAT WAS OBVIOUS, among other things.

If it was so obvious, why did my thread have +20 pages of discussion?

I'm not getting into this here, the current discussion is Brinstar... Though I think I've pretty much wrapped it up with my previous posts.

 

[Tesh]

It had 20 pages of discussion because you are stubborn.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It had 20 pages of discussion because you are stubborn.

Train harder, keyboard warrior.

I'm not getting into this here, the current discussion is Brinstar... Though I think I've pretty much wrapped it up with my previous posts.

 

[Tesh]

A wise man once said "Don't start nothin, won't be nothin".