Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[ぱみゅ]

This is absurd now.

Wario Ware's design is amazing: play a minigame, win it andyou have a reward.

Problem is not that the reward is random, but that reward is outrageous (a Starman? Really?).
In Pictochat you MUST be awared not to be at certain places at certain moments, if you ended up there because your opponent sent you there, you were outplayed. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

This is absurd now.

>implying there was a point in this argument where it wasn't absurd.

 

[Tesh]

Newsflash LzR, you can't control any stage. They aren't characters. GrimFandango is just another conservative that shuts down when he can't justify his warped ideals.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Actually Tesh, if you provide an argument I will counter it.

And no, this doesn't count

You conservatives just cling to your petty beliefs on stage legality. You refuse to open your eyes to the idea of large stagelists. Maybe if you actually played the stage you would think otherwise.

as an argument.

 

[-LzR-]

Then what is this thing called "stage control" that is very important in competitive play?

And you can control Picto, be in the area where a bad drawing won't appear and when a drawing has appeared, it won't appear again during that match.

 

[Tesh]

You can outplay your opponent and stop him from winning any of the minigames with good timing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can outplay your opponent and stop him from winning any of the minigames with good timing.

It's un-reasonable to ask that of the player.

Some of the mini-games are REALLY easy.

And assuming either one player or the other manages to complete a mini-game: That is almost always 1/3 of the match over.

It's like if there was an attack that hit more frequently than Falcon's Knee and was an instant kill 95% of the time.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well I'm not going to completely try to say Wario Ware shouldn't be legal but.

We have to be subjective in this case.

We know that Wario Ware will essentially make the winner of the match random between two players that don't have a massive skill gap. (I can beat casuals on this stage consistently but that doesn't count, as there's a massive skill gap)

So we have to subjectively say Wario Ware is too random for tournament play. (just like we turn items off because they're too random)
Otherwise tournaments won't do what they're intended to do, which is have the best player win.


You can't consistently stop your opponent from winning the minigames

Oh you just happened to be offstage, the mini-game randomly started and your opponent is under the umbrella and you're not.

Well too bad looks like he got a starman.

Or in another scenario the ledge disappeared and you just lost your stock, well too bad.





On the bright side Perfect Planking isn't broken on this stage

Edit: Oh and saying it's a calculated risk by the person counter-picking isn't legitimate.
Otherwise we should also be able to counter-pick items.

 

[Life]

Grim, BPC will show up eventually whether you namesearch-bait him or not.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I do =P
This far, I've never found a good, consistent ciriteria against it.


EDIT: and about PTAD, I found the stage design unique and wonderful... Only thing i don't like is cars killing at retardedly low %... (they kills about 40%, if it were70-80 they'd be perfectly fine).

Blastzones kill at 0 and you're just as likely to hit one of those without being severely outplayed by your opponent as your are to be run over. The cars on PTAD are in a set pattern, with at least a few seconds of warning, and there are safe zones. You can in fact calculate exactly where they are on the track, or just memorize a few patterns.

I'm done with this.

Anyway, BPC was supposed to tell me why crafting a conservative stage list designed only to test the core gameplay skills was objectively worse than a liberal stage list, but he never did.

NAME SEARCH:
BPC
Budget Player Cadet

For example, imagine a stage-list of Smashville, Delfino Plaza and Pokemon Stadium 2.

I don't namesearch; too many people refer to me as BPFree.

Your core skills are being limited to skills which are used consistently. Not "all skills in the game", skills that are used consistently. This is like limiting character selection to one Zoning char, one Aggro char, one trapper, and one projectile spammer, because, well, you don't really "need" the rest. It's all fine and dandy until you realize that each other stage tests the skills in a different way, with different setups and modes. You can't earnestly claim that a game on smashville or Pokemon Stadium Two plays exactly like a game on Battlefield or Pokemon Stadium 1. It's lowering game depth by oversimplifying, and there's simply no reason to do it. Furthermore, you still ignore various things such as serious stage movement (RF/RC), dealing with interactive hazards (Brinstar/Skyworld/Luigi's Mansion), dealing with non-interactive hazards (Norfair/Brinstar/etc.)... you get the picture.

 

[UberMario]

I think the only banned stages should be:
75m
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow
Mario Bros.
Mario Circuit
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld (I'm VERY MUCH on the fence about this)
Spear Pillar
Summit
Wario Ware Inc.
Big Blue (I'd love to test this more)
Corneria
Temple

Any liberals disagree?

I have a borderline-legal stance with Green Hill Zone (especially if Pirate Ship and Picto are considered legal). I'm not sure about Onett though because the walls do affect the matches significantly, even if the cars interrupt any infinites.

Big Blue is broken, I went vs. Meta-Knight (BPC) on that stage to test viability with him, and it only took him about three minutes to get onto a platform (and pretty much do nothing) I couldn't reach. (Because he guarded it until the platform I was on went out of range) I couldn't get to him again for over four minutes, and it was only with about 50 seconds left on the clock that I was able to do anything to him.

It can't really be called "stalling" either under the current definition (which doesn't include circle camping either), because he's technically getting himself into an advantageous, strategic position, rather than running away and abusing a character move like regular stalling.

Wario Ware is totally legit. Its a calculated risk picking that stage. Just like Pictochat. The hazards are harmless and the walkoff segments are temporary. Power ups aren't more powerful than the random things that might happen on other legal stages.

Scenario: Two characters both succeed in a mini-game
Result 1: One character gets nothing, the other one becomes big and has several 1HKO/2HKO moves now because of the small distance to the kill barriers. GG

Result 2: One character gets big, and the other gets a star. GG

Result 3: One character gets nothing, the oher gets a star. GG

It just doesn't work, the randomness is too broken. If the bonuses could be disabled completely, I'd consider it a counterpick at best, but that's not the case so we have to ban it due to 100% unfair advantages.

So if I have such stages as Norfair, Japes, Green Greens and Pictochat legal should I have no reason to ban PTAD?

Pretty much, the cars are not as much of a threat as people make them out to be (Most friendlies that I have against other players that are experienced with PTAD have little-to-no influence from the cars. Most of the time, the fight can go on just fine with them going underneath/to the side of us) If they don't like it, they can make it their personal ban, though it isn't that hard to learn, really.

Test I know what you are doing and I won't even fall for it.

I don't have YI:M legal. Should I ask my scene for their opinions about the stage or what?
The cars don't really kill at 40% unless you are Puff and if you DI.

I think you should, I haven't noticed any notably overwhelming tactics on the stage, and walkoffs aren't as hard to deal with. The only potential problem I really see on the stage is the insanely close left kill zone, which can result in <100% kills, but other than that, I see nothing different from the other counterpicks.

In Pictochat you MUST be awared not to be at certain places at certain moments, if you ended up there because your opponent sent you there, you were outplayed. Is that so hard to understand?

Except that the whole stage can be considered a series of "certain places", because, contrary to popular belief, there isn't any safe zone, not even off the stage (unless you count being under the right ledge). However, even with that, it's still more usable than WarioWare. In the former, the chances of the stage literally ruining the match are about 1/100 (which is still way higher than anything else legal when stage knowledge is anywhere near decent (Fixed-trajectory lava plumes are easy to avoid), but that's besides the point), on WarioWare, it's pretty easy to say that nearly every match is ruined by the bonuses.

 

[DMG]

75m
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow
Mario Bros.
Mario Circuit
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld (I'm VERY MUCH on the fence about this) No need sir, Skyworld shall not be legal.
Spear Pillar
Summit
Wario Ware Inc.
Big Blue (I'd love to test this more) Not suitable for gameplay because of near permanent camping "hot spots"
Corneria
Temple

To that list, I would add Brinstar, Distant Planet, and potentially Japes. Of course, as long as people lose on those stages, there will always be fodder for the "There's nothing wrong with the stage, lrn 2 play" cannons. I'm not gonna get into those stages frankly because even if I explain in depth why there is a problem, I can't randomly pull a video off of youtube that will visually demonstrate the issues.

 

[-LzR-]

Lol DMG Japes and Brinstar are legit.

 

[DMG]

Depends on how gay you imagine players playing there.

Take Judge vs Shaky for example. Prime example of a match people look at and say "See nothing wrong with Brinstar". You could point out that Judge didn't play very gay, but that tends to lead to "Well of course if you say this guy would have won if he played better, anything's possible" and similar statements.


Now, take D4ba vs Gnes Match 2. Same stage, MK vs Diddy this time. Notice a difference between the two matches? MK here doesn't care: he sharks without taking up edge grabs, tornadoes from platform to platform, uses simple yet strong ways to run the clock, etc.

(The match if you haven't seen it yet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UolkDnxKiCw)


If you have a lack of "gayness" present when evaluating stages, frankly nearly any stage can look acceptable. What's wrong with Corneria if you don't abuse the camping positions heavily/abuse the wall? What's wrong with Hanenbow if you don't circle camp for days? I'm pretty sure you can have a good match on Wario Ware if neither player completes a Minigame and never gets the gamebreaking bonuses. Or Mario Bros if people don't abuse teching or the powerful walking object items that spawn.


Obviously for those stages, it's quite obvious. It doesn't take a genius to see why 75M or Mushroom Kingdom or Spear Pillar or Wario Ware are not suitable for gameplay. Even people not affiliated with Smash could look at 75 M and say "Wtf is this ****, why would you play here". For other stages however, it's definitely not as obvious. Norfair has some issues. Do you blatantly see them? Probably not. Maybe you can connect the dots between stage features (Multi platformed with floor gaps requiring you to go airborne to traverse the stage, Multi clustered edges, sharking enhanced layout, etc) and go "Oh ok I can see how if Player 1 plays this way and abuses these things, it becomes ridiculous." Besides that, you probably look at Norfair and say "Well I see platforms, edges, and lava. How is any of this a problem?".


It's not like this for a large number of stages. Stages like Pictochat, Pirate Ship, etc don't fall into the category of what Im talking about: Stages that definitely have problems if you look deeper than the "eyesore wtf is this garbage" instant visual level. Stages like Brinstar for example.

 

[-LzR-]

You know I am like the "gayest" player in my country so I know that stuff. So yeah ban MK not an otherwise good stage. Should we ban FD because IC can pretty much always get grabs there?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't think we would have a problem with all these stages if we had a full stage striking after every match. If you people say that this takes too long then you guys have obviously never seen most pros select their one ban or counter pick stage. You can even put a time limit on this not to mention the fact that if you add this rule, most players will likely just agree on a stage to play on instead of actually going through the entire stage striking procedure

 

[UberMario]

Lol DMG Japes and Brinstar are legit.

^^This.

They are great counterpicks (Brinstar is probably the 3rd best, behind Frigate and Pokemon Stadium 2), Distant Planet too.

Now, take D4ba vs Gnes Match 2. Same stage, MK vs Diddy this time. Notice a difference between the two matches? MK here doesn't care: he sharks without taking up edge grabs, tornadoes from platform to platform, uses simple yet strong ways to run the clock, etc.

(The match if you haven't seen it yet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UolkDnxKiCw)

A couple of things:

1) He didn't time it out by stalling
2) The MK was playing effectively while the Diddy was not
3) Whenever the MK was on a side platform, the Diddy approached the same way each time [jumping through the platform with an aerial], and the MK countered in the same effective ways: Powershielding-to-attack or Shuttle Loop.
4) Most of the Tornadoes that connected involved hard reads. (three examples, MK tornado'd the bottom platform while Diddy was throwing both of his bananas back to back, and Diddy JUMPED INTO the Tornado another time. Also, see :30-:40 and tell me that the MK didn't see that coming at all)
5) The MK was playing calmly, while the Diddy was rushing for his first two stocks, it wasn't until the last stock that he started playing slower.
6) It was obvious that the MK knew the stage much better than the Diddy did, you can even see the Diddy getting hit by the lava while in the middle of a taunt.

This was a prime example of playing the match right, I didn't even see any noticeable planking of any kind either. If anything, the video proves why it IS a good stage, you can use stage knowledge to your advantage and capitalize without it being broken.

 

[Gnes]

^^This.

They are great counterpicks (Brinstar is probably the 3rd best, behind Frigate and Pokemon Stadium 2), Distant Planet too.



A couple of things:

1) He didn't time it out by stalling
2) The MK was playing effectively while the Diddy was not
3) Whenever the MK was on a side platform, the Diddy approached the same way each time [jumping through the platform with an aerial], and the MK countered in the same effective ways: Powershielding-to-attack or Shuttle Loop.
4) Most of the Tornadoes that connected involved hard reads. (three examples, MK tornado'd the bottom platform while Diddy was throwing both of his bananas back to back, and Diddy JUMPED INTO the Tornado another time. Also, see :30-:40 and tell me that the MK didn't see that coming at all)
5) The MK was playing calmly, while the Diddy was rushing for his first two stocks, it wasn't until the last stock that he started playing slower.
6) It was obvious that the MK knew the stage much better than the Diddy did, you can even see the Diddy getting hit by the lava while in the middle of a taunt.

This was a prime example of playing the match right, I didn't even see any noticeable planking of any kind either. If anything, the video proves why it IS a good stage, you can use stage knowledge to your advantage and capitalize without it being broken.

u serious? like r u trolling?

1) regardless he could have had he chose to. But whats the point when I'm one hit away from death?
2) "effectively"....uhhhh, the match was close till he got the lead and forced me to make UNSAFE decisions.
3) Diddy isn't good at approaching mk, this is commonly known information. Add that with having to approach from under him, and I'm not understanding what you thought should have happened considering in that scenario mk has every advantage.
4) Lmaoooo him blocking my recovery option is not a hard read, its him utilizing the tools his chr. has to their advantages.
5) Idk even know what to say to that. What does that have to do with anything?
6)okay i know ur trolling now. I was obviously taunting cuz I had given up on the match. I was at 150/or so percent, and realized if he kept his strategy up he would win.

 

[DMG]

Gnes it's ok. I gave up explaining to people. I just post and go.

I mean if they wanna argue with the MLG champ, go ahead not gonna stop you from that LOL

 

[Ghostbone]

Gnes it's ok. I gave up explaining to people. I just post and go.

I mean if they wanna argue with the MLG champ, go ahead not gonna stop you from that LOL

Because player skill obviously has to do with ones ability to tell if a stage should be banned or not.
-_-

 

[DMG]

Being one of the best players in the game surely can't hurt your ability to analyze, can it?

If you want to be nit picky, no player skill doesn't guarantee you can analyze stages effectively. But I'm definitely believing one of the top players in the US, who personally played that match and can tell you what he was thinking, how he acted/why he did things, explain what the matchup is like on the stage, etc over some guy people hardly know saying "Your doin it wrong, I know better." Where are vids of Ubermario playing Diddy on Brinstar vs a comparably gay MK demonstrating what he is talking about? Or even if not him, another player in a similar spot who's destroying the tactics the MK is employing?


Now, assuming Gnes DOES know what he's talking about (which is clear he does, go have a conversation or two with him and I'm sure you will have a better impression of him than someone like M2K who's known to make wild claims), then I think it's safe to say I'd take his word over "X" guy anyday.


Sorry Gnes, you had a false namesearch alert for this thread lol. Surprised you responded, but you gotta educate the masses ya know?

 

[-LzR-]

Again the problem lies in a certain winged ball. Not a stage with goo and **** all over it with lava. Have you noticed how important Brinstar is for several lowtier characters? Taking it away would also be an unnecessary nerf for them. Ban the char not the stage.

 

[Ghostbone]

Again the problem lies in a certain winged ball. Not a stage with goo and **** all over it with lava. Have you noticed how important Brinstar is for several lowtier characters? Taking it away would also be an unnecessary nerf for them. Ban the char not the stage.

The problem is also, Meta Knight is only good against certain characters on this stage, yet people think he's that good against everyone.

Even MK mains....(I've had a MK counter-pick my G&W to Brinstar...lolwut)

Don't take away G&W's best counter-pick D:.

 

[DMG]

Uh, you do know MK kinda poops on everyone here right? What's the difference between doing this to Diddy, and doing this to Falco, Marth, G&W, Snake, Peach, Olimar, Wario, IC's, Pit, Luigi, Kirby, ZSS, Lucario, etc?

It's not unrealistic to say MK clearly has a noticeable edge on everyone in the cast on this stage. A few matchups around 6:4 maybe, the rest above that. Is that a problem? The answer you get varies from person to person. Regardless, if we are being accurate, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say MK clearly does well here.

 

[Tesh]

Pictochat hands out random unfair rewards for accomplishing the same task too UberMario. It just never tells you exactly when this random test will occur. Wario Ware does. It gives you a chance to win with you opponent, force your opponent to lose, or let your opponent win. These are all situations where you might be given the upper hand based on the risk you take. Or you might find yourself in a sticky situation.

People aren't going to 0-death you just because they are invincible. This is Brawl. Pictochat however DOES hand out random OSKs.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Your core skills are being limited to skills which are used consistently. Not "all skills in the game", skills that are used consistently. This is like limiting character selection to one Zoning char, one Aggro char, one trapper, and one projectile spammer, because, well, you don't really "need" the rest. It's all fine and dandy until you realize that each other stage tests the skills in a different way, with different setups and modes. You can't earnestly claim that a game on smashville or Pokemon Stadium Two plays exactly like a game on Battlefield or Pokemon Stadium 1. It's lowering game depth by oversimplifying, and there's simply no reason to do it. Furthermore, you still ignore various things such as serious stage movement (RF/RC), dealing with interactive hazards (Brinstar/Skyworld/Luigi's Mansion), dealing with non-interactive hazards (Norfair/Brinstar/etc.)... you get the picture.

The "depth" that is being removed is unnecessary depth, it would just be the same depth we have on those three stages but painted a different colour. Does it test any different skills to avoid a walk-off than it does to avoid a wall?

What we are left with is the most balanced stages while still testing the important skills. If we leave in other stages, we are just getting the negative elements from them (randomness, heavily-centralizing tactics, etc...) while any of the positives that come from them we already had anyway.

Please explain to me why "serious stage movement" is any different than your opponent pressuring you into moving from platform to platform.

Also explain how avoiding a hazard is different to avoiding your opponent's attacks.

75m
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow
Mario Bros.
Mario Circuit
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld (I'm VERY MUCH on the fence about this) No need sir, Skyworld shall not be legal.
Spear Pillar
Summit
Wario Ware Inc.
Big Blue (I'd love to test this more) Not suitable for gameplay because of near permanent camping "hot spots"
Corneria
Temple

To that list, I would add Brinstar, Distant Planet, and potentially Japes. Of course, as long as people lose on those stages, there will always be fodder for the "There's nothing wrong with the stage, lrn 2 play" cannons. I'm not gonna get into those stages frankly because even if I explain in depth why there is a problem, I can't randomly pull a video off of youtube that will visually demonstrate the issues.

We don't theory-craft on borderline stages.

If you have a stage which should obviously be banned like Temple, then ban it. If you think Brinstar should be banned, it's not so obvious, so you are going to need some actual evidence backing you up. Rather than one match-up with Meta Knight on his best stage.

I can do it too!

Final Destination should be banned.

I don't think we would have a problem with all these stages if we had a full stage striking after every match. If you people say that this takes too long then you guys have obviously never seen most pros select their one ban or counter pick stage. You can even put a time limit on this not to mention the fact that if you add this rule, most players will likely just agree on a stage to play on instead of actually going through the entire stage striking procedure

Full Stage List Striking removes a huge amount of depth from the game, as only 3 stages maximum will ever be played on.

Uh, you do know MK kinda poops on everyone here right? What's the difference between doing this to Diddy, and doing this to Falco, Marth, G&W, Snake, Peach, Olimar, Wario, IC's, Pit, Luigi, Kirby, ZSS, Lucario, etc?

It's not unrealistic to say MK clearly has a noticeable edge on everyone in the cast on this stage. A few matchups around 6:4 maybe, the rest above that. Is that a problem? The answer you get varies from person to person. Regardless, if we are being accurate, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say MK clearly does well here.

I guess we should ban Final Destination because of Ice Climbers, then?

This is the whole reason we have a stage ban system in place, people >_>

Pictochat hands out random unfair rewards for accomplishing the same task too UberMario. It just never tells you exactly when this random test will occur. Wario Ware does. It gives you a chance to win with you opponent, force your opponent to lose, or let your opponent win. These are all situations where you might be given the upper hand based on the risk you take. Or you might find yourself in a sticky situation.

People aren't going to 0-death you just because they are invincible. This is Brawl. Pictochat however DOES hand out random OSKs.

Enough theory-craft. WarioWare severely impacts results, Pictochat doesn't. End of discussion.

 

[Tesh]

GrimFandango you sir are a hypocrite.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

GrimFandango you sir are a hypocrite.

Elaborate please.

 

[Tesh]

I don't need to back up my claim. You are hippocritter. End of story.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't need to back up my claim. You are hippocritter. End of story.

Oh, I see what you did there.

The difference is that my claim was backed up by lots of evidence and common sense. I just didn't list the evidence because well, it's COMMON SENSE.

Next you'll be asking for evidence that circle camping on 75m is broken >_> Again, COMMON SENSE.

 

[DMG]

Except IC's don't poop on everyone on FD. Do IC's easily go 6:4 or better against everyone else in the cast on that stage? That doesn't seem comparable to MK on Brinstar: actually, I can't think of any character+stage combinations that are that strong with MK out of the picture, barring maybe G&W/Wario on Brinstar or Wario/G&W on Norfair. There's no one on Frigate, Smashville, YI, PS2, Delfino, etc that dominates the cast as hard or close to as hard as MK on Brinstar. Sure, you could say that's MK specific, but there's still a big difference from Wario on RC or IC's on FD compared to MK on Brinstar.


What are stage bans available for in the first place? I mean if we are going by the logic of "Just ban it if you have a problem", then why not make every stage legal (even the 75 m's and Temples) and give people a ton of bans? Surely there's nothing wrong with making a ton of broken stages legal if you give sufficient stage bans to the players right? It's not ok to make Hyrule legal and add a stage ban, but it's ok to ban most bad stages and keep a few legal because "Well we'll give you a handful of bans, good luck with that"?

Giving players stage bans for "bad" stages doesn't change the fact that it's still a bad stage. If a stage is not fit for competitive play, I don't think the proper response is to try a work around through stage bans instead of removing it from play altogether.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Except IC's don't poop on everyone on FD. Do IC's easily go 6:4 or better against everyone else in the cast on that stage? That doesn't seem comparable to MK on Brinstar: actually, I can't think of any character+stage combinations that are that strong with MK out of the picture, barring maybe G&W/Wario on Brinstar or Wario/G&W on Norfair. There's no one on Frigate, Smashville, YI, PS2, Delfino, etc that dominates the cast as hard or close to as hard as MK on Brinstar. Sure, you could say that's MK specific, but there's still a big difference from Wario on RC or IC's on FD compared to MK on Brinstar.

Yeah... Ice Climbers ARE very good on FD.

I'd say:
MK: 60/40 or more
Snake: 40/60 to 50/50
Diddy: 60/40 or more
Falco: 60/40 or more
Wario: 60/40 or more
Marth: 60/40 or more

I'd love if an Ice Climbers main

Spoiler

like Hylian /namesearch

could verify those numbers.

What are stage bans available for in the first place? I mean if we are going by the logic of "Just ban it if you have a problem", then why not make every stage legal (even the 75 m's and Temples) and give people a ton of bans? Surely there's nothing wrong with making a ton of broken stages legal if you give sufficient stage bans to the players right? It's not ok to make Hyrule legal and add a stage ban, but it's ok to ban most bad stages and keep a few legal because "Well we'll give you a handful of bans, good luck with that"?

Giving players stage bans for "bad" stages doesn't change the fact that it's still a bad stage. If a stage is not fit for competitive play, I don't think the proper response is to try a work around through stage bans instead of removing it from play altogether.

Why have Temple legal when it will lead to a problem in every match-up? You'd literally HAVE to ban it every time.

Unlike Brinstar, where the chance of your opponent having a pocket Meta Knight isn't enough to break the stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

<stuff>

Theorycraft. Blatant and baseless theorycraft. You can get away with stuff like that for stages like Distant Planet or Luigi's Mansion, where there's virtually never been a tournament with them, but this is a stage that has been used in virtually every tournament since brawl's inception in europe and the states. So it's your theorycraft against pretty much all the known results! Come on, gimme a break.

I don't think we would have a problem with all these stages if we had a full stage striking after every match. If you people say that this takes too long then you guys have obviously never seen most pros select their one ban or counter pick stage. You can even put a time limit on this not to mention the fact that if you add this rule, most players will likely just agree on a stage to play on instead of actually going through the entire stage striking procedure

It's not too long, it's really dumb. How many stages would, realistically, see play with that rule? Right now, it's around 5-10 in most rulesets; many counterpick stages get use; more than don't, in any case (you rarely see Castle Siege, Yoshi's Island, or PS1...). With full striking for every matchup, you'd see maybe a third of that, if you're lucky. You lose a massive amount of variability.

@Grim: "Unnecessary depth"? Now you're just being ridiculous.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

At GrimFandango and BPC, That's just player preference. The options to use those stages are still there in the same way that the entire character roster is still there.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

@Grim: "Unnecessary depth"? Now you're just being ridiculous.

No, I'm not.

"Depth" to game-play is pretty much just another way of referring to the diversity and quantity of the skills players are tested on. A "deep" game is one which requires a large amount of different skills to be tested.

As you put it yourself: "Competitive depth is basically summed up through the number of effectively different situations that the game has to offer. Effectively different is important here, because there are effectively almost infinite situations in any fighting game. However, is it effectively different if you have Ryu backed up against a wall or halfway across the field when he does his normal bread and butter combo in Tatsunoko vs. Capcom? No."

With a stage list of PS2, SV and Delfino, every effectively different situation is being tested.

If we add Norfair into the mix, we suddenly have more different situations, but none are effectively different. If you then consider the random elements of the stage and how it promotes less-skillful tactics like planking, scrooging and run-away camping, it's quite apparent that the game would be better off without it.

/devil's advocate

 

[DMG]

You say theorycraft BPC, but I actually had video examples and even had Gnes come in here and talk about it.

Aight, I'm done. Gnes lets go watch K Pop

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You say theorycraft BPC, but I actually had one video example and even had Gnes come in here and whine about it.

Aight, I'm done. Gnes lets go watch K Pop

Fixed.

Spoiler

10fixes

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

At GrimFandango and BPC, That's just player preference. The options to use those stages are still there in the same way that the entire character roster is still there.

K, here's the difference. Say I want to play on one of X stages. If we're in a counterpick system, assuming that we have less than X stage bans, I can get a stage I want. With a reasonable (1-3) number of bans, and if I am a reasonable person that likes more than a very small number of stages, I can get my choice. My opponent is limited in how he can limit me. We strike the whole stagelist... well, I'd better like half or more of the stagelist, huh? Furthermore, if my opponent is a competitively-minded individual, I can only select a stage that is more in his favor that it needs to be. Assuming two competitive-minded individuals, this will lead to the same stage in the same matchup each and every time. And whoops, wouldn't you know it, striking patterns in smash often play out very similarly.

Trust me on this-removing counterpicks seriously stunts stage diversity.

No, I'm not.

"Depth" to game-play is pretty much just another way of referring to the diversity and quantity of the skills players are tested on. A "deep" game is one which requires a large amount of different skills to be tested.

As you put it yourself: "Competitive depth is basically summed up through the number of effectively different situations that the game has to offer. Effectively different is important here, because there are effectively almost infinite situations in any fighting game. However, is it effectively different if you have Ryu backed up against a wall or halfway across the field when he does his normal bread and butter combo in Tatsunoko vs. Capcom? No."

With a stage list of PS2, SV and Delfino, every effectively different situation is being tested.

If we add Norfair into the mix, we suddenly have more different situations, but none are effectively different. If you then consider the random elements of the stage and how it promotes less-skillful tactics like planking, scrooging and run-away camping, it's quite apparent that the game would be better off without it.

/devil's advocate

So... you'd react the exact same way to your opponent pressuring you from below on norfair while a lava plume comes towards you as you would to a situation on any of the stages you've just named? It is effectively different, in a very big way.

 

[DMG]

Fixed.

Spoiler

10fixes

Ah yes, I do say that looks Marvelous.

I'm off to beg on the streets for crackers and crumbs.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So... you'd react the exact same way to your opponent pressuring you from below on norfair while a lava plume comes towards you as you would to a situation on any of the stages you've just named? It is effectively different, in a very big way.

Fair enough, but can you come up with an example like that for every legal stage in a standard liberal stage list?

Let's say... Jungle Japes.