Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Fair enough, but can you come up with an example like that for every legal stage in a standard liberal stage list?

Let's say... Jungle Japes.

Falco spamming lasers at you from a side platform, using the gap between the platforms to make your approach difficult.
Final Destination: approaching ICs without getting grabbed with no platforms to aid you.
Rainbow Cruise: MK is approaching from below on the rising segment.

Yeah, pretty much every legal stage. That's the point-they're different.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

At BPC, according to you, shouldn't every player know how to play on every stage whether they like it or not? DSR should be in effect when using this rule set. that way you don't end up on the same stage every match

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

At BPC, according to you, shouldn't every player know how to play on every stage whether they like it or not?

Every stage that is legal, yes.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Falco spamming lasers at you from a side platform, using the gap between the platforms to make your approach difficult.
Final Destination: approaching ICs without getting grabbed with no platforms to aid you.
Rainbow Cruise: MK is approaching from below on the rising segment.

Yeah, pretty much every legal stage. That's the point-they're different.

Falco spamming lasers from the side platform... Just jump over them from the middle platform? I'd hardly call that effectively different.

Approaching Ice Climbers without getting grabbed with no platforms to aid you... Use aerial or ranged attacks that are safe on shield? Not all combat against the Ice Climbers has to be done with the aid of platforms.

MK approaching from below on the rising segment... Re-act the same way you would whenever MK is approaching from below on any stage?

It comes down to where you draw the subjective line separating "effectively different" from "different".

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Fair enough, but can you come up with an example like that for every legal stage in a standard liberal stage list?

Let's say... Jungle Japes.

Yes, both players agree to play Smashville. End of story.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Falco spamming lasers from the side platform... Just jump over them from the middle platform? I'd hardly call that effectively different.

Approaching Ice Climbers without getting grabbed with no platforms to aid you... Use aerial or ranged attacks that are safe on shield? Not all combat against the Ice Climbers has to be done with the aid of platforms.

MK approaching from below on the rising segment... Re-act the same way you would whenever MK is approaching from below on any stage?

It comes down to where you draw the subjective line separating "effectively different" from "different".

Will anyone else in this thread agree that, at this point, it has become clear that grimfandango really has no idea what he's talking about? You're completely wrong on all three counts.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yes, both players agree to play Smashville. End of story.

I wasn't talking to you, Jebus. If I was, I would have quoted one of your posts instead of quoting BPC's.

Will anyone else in this thread agree that, at this point, it has become clear that grimfandango really has no idea what he's talking about? You're completely wrong on all three counts.

You are so infuriating to talk to.

You intentionally try to make all of your posts as condescending as possible.

If I am wrong: EXPLAIN WHY. It's how people learn to stop being wrong. Your only reasons for NOT explaining are laziness, or the afore-mentioned condescendingness.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You are so infuriating to talk to.

You intentionally try to make all of your posts as condescending as possible.

If I am wrong: EXPLAIN WHY. It's how people learn to stop being wrong. Your only reasons for NOT explaining are laziness, or the afore-mentioned condescendingness.

It's just that I'm getting a little bit frustrated. If you can't understand the difference between, say, Falco-ICs on FD in comparison to the stages you have mentioned, or virtually any matchup on those stages in comparison to norfair/brinstar/RC/WHATEVER, then go play a few matches on them to freshen up your knowledge. You're just completely wrong when you say things like that. The differences are extreme.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

At GrimFandango, Get used to it (and by it I mean BPC)

At BPC, Then what is REAL the problem with full stage striking?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's just that I'm getting a little bit frustrated. If you can't understand the difference between, say, Falco-ICs on FD in comparison to the stages you have mentioned, or virtually any matchup on those stages in comparison to norfair/brinstar/RC/WHATEVER, then go play a few matches on them to freshen up your knowledge. You're just completely wrong when you say things like that. The differences are extreme.

I'm not wrong, we just have very different opinions on what is effectively different.

From what I can tell, if I was to name an example of a skill, I'd say something like... Moving in and out of someone's range to try and get them to commit to and whiff an attack.

You, I assume, would say something more like: "Dash-dancing with an occasional SH aerial or air dodge while standing in an advantageous position so your opponent will be forced to attack, dodge, etc... thus putting him in a dis-advantageous position which you can capitalize upon by attacking straight out of the afore-mentioned dash dance/SH"

The first of which is a skill present on every stage in every match-up, the latter is one only really important in certain match-ups and on stages with clear advantageous positions.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

BPC: Showing a vid of what happens is not theory-craft. Heck having a top player who played the match-up futher proves him point.

Grim: That vid of Wario on FD, congrats you took an unranked player, although he isn't bad at all I've talk with RJ on a few occasions, against the #2 player in NJ, even further that player topped at MLG Dallas. That same smart player is notorious for being able to play any character because of how smart he is at playing random and other characters because he is good at the games fundamentals. Sure if you leave these those facts I'm sure your vid looks a lot better than it actually is.

FD is the best if not one of the best for Lucario to take Wario, your vid is poor evidence. Also it was a friendly.

I agree also that IC's do not destroy the cast close to what MK can do on other stages, plenty of character can fight and win here even some keeping advantages against them even on FD. Difference, it's easier to have a platform than to not have it. MK on certain CP stages, some characters just can't fight him here effectively at all.

 

[Ghostbone]

Uh, you do know MK kinda poops on everyone here right? What's the difference between doing this to Diddy, and doing this to Falco, Marth, G&W, Snake, Peach, Olimar, Wario, IC's, Pit, Luigi, Kirby, ZSS, Lucario, etc?

It's not unrealistic to say MK clearly has a noticeable edge on everyone in the cast on this stage. A few matchups around 6:4 maybe, the rest above that. Is that a problem? The answer you get varies from person to person. Regardless, if we are being accurate, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say MK clearly does well here.

MK beats everyone everywhere, what's your point?

There's no difference between doing it to anyone, and it's not broken against anyone.
Characters like G&W handle MK on Brinstar much better than on a lot of stages.

Edit: wow for some reason my browser didn't load like the last 2 pages >.>

Edit 2: Except the vid didn't actually show any degenerate tactics, it simply showed an MK using the stage layout to his advantage.
Like how Ice Climbers use the lack of platforms on FD to their advantage.

Also.
Many characters just can't fight Ice Climbers effectively at all on FD.
Many characters can't fight D3 effectively at all on most stages.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If they can't fight the character on most stages, chances are the character has a really bad match-up or is bad.

In which case there is nothing stage-wise that would fix it, even if their was lets say 1-2 stages that would make it better it would still not change the fact the character has horrible match-up with that character.

This even applies to Ice Climbers some characters can't fight them at all, Ganon, Bowser, Fox, in which cases it's a bad match-up. However most of the cast can still fight them reasonably even on FD, so the stage isn't suspect. TL, R.O.B., Snake, Peach, MK, Diddy, can keep a neutral match-up here. Now there are character who do a lot better with a platform, Lucario does better and imo has a slight advantage because of platform tactics. Is it better to go anywhere else? Sure but that's not really an excuse to not keep a stage legal or starter unless they really did hardcore break it in half or make the stage borderline bannable or rather more ban-worthy than the others on the CP list.

If Sonic can have his best stage as a starter, unless pictochat is legal, I don;t see why others like can't if it happens, since we're looking at general cast and taking note if any break the stage. Which in this case they don't to a bannable degree.

Edit 2: Except the vid didn't actually show any degenerate tactics, it simply showed an MK using the stage layout to his advantage.
Like how Ice Climbers use the lack of platforms on FD to their advantage.

That itself can be banworthy if then taking advantage of the layout is too good.

 

[Ghostbone]

That itself can be banworthy if then taking advantage of the layout is too good.

In my opinion Ice Climbers can take advantage of the layout of FD too well.
Or at least it's definitely comparable to MK on Brinstar.

And a bunch of characters that can fight IC effectively on most stages can't on FD.

An example would be G&W, who can do well on most counter-picks, but is screwed over on the first game.

Oh and pretty much nobody should get their best stage as a starter, that completely ruins the point of having starters in the first place.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

At GrimFandango, Get used to it (and by it I mean BPC)

At BPC, Then what is REAL the problem with full stage striking?

So I flame stupid people. Whoops? I'm not about to be nicer about it. It's because people who are wrong and refuse to get it are incredibly infuriating. In the planking thread, for example, I explained very clearly why your idea was horrible, and you never got it. I've just explained why this idea sucks, and now I'll do it again. Make me explain myself three times, and I start getting angry.

By using a full stage strike system for each match, the number of stages that will realistically be used sinks from around 13 to around 3. This is because there is an "optimum" stage in each matchup; the most balanced one. The only way you can avoid picking that stage is if one of the two players budges in favor of the opponent's choice. This will not happen much in competition outside of "wanna just go SV?" (in fact, let's be realistic-it'd come down to that almost every game). When would Delfino see play? Frigate? Brinstar? RC? FD? The answer is "almost never". And Dave's Stupid Rule makes no sense with striking because you need an odd number of stages, plus it only raises the count from 1 stage to 3 stages-not a huge improvement.

I'm not wrong, we just have very different opinions on what is effectively different.

From what I can tell, if I was to name an example of a skill, I'd say something like... Moving in and out of someone's range to try and get them to commit to and whiff an attack.

You, I assume, would say something more like: "Dash-dancing with an occasional SH aerial or air dodge while standing in an advantageous position so your opponent will be forced to attack, dodge, etc... thus putting him in a dis-advantageous position which you can capitalize upon by attacking straight out of the afore-mentioned dash dance/SH"

The first of which is a skill present on every stage in every match-up, the latter is one only really important in certain match-ups and on stages with clear advantageous positions.

I have shown you examples on these stages that are effectively different (the player must respond to them radically differently to any other situation in the game) to any other stage in the game. They test skills in different ways, and they potentially test different facets. Excluding them because they test the same overcategory of skills... Well then, you only need one stage.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

In my opinion Ice Climbers can take advantage of the layout of FD too well.
Or at least it's definitely comparable to MK on Brinstar.

And a bunch of characters that can fight IC effectively on most stages can't on FD.

Generally most characters who have trouble on FD tend to have trouble with them anywhere else. ICs do an an advantage against quite a few characters.

An example would be G&W, who can do well on most counter-picks, but is screwed over on the first game.

That really isn't a concern if one character can't get his best stage, if it happens for one character, well it happens. Just because isn't anyone's best stage it doesn't mean it should be a starter. IT doesn't have to be their best stage for them to gain an advantage there

Also I'm not agreeing to ban it, more so I do think it's far worse than FD in terms of stage balance

Oh and pretty much nobody should get their best stage as a starter, that completely ruins the point of having starters in the first place.

BF, YI are also gone from the starter list if this is the case.

@BPC: Don't flame people, or I give out pretty little red cards.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

At BPC, Again, That is just player preference. If these players don't want to continue playing on the same old stages, then maybe they should strike different stages next time. I can guarantee that against Diddy Kong, every smart player is going to ban SV, FD and BF (three of his best stages). This means that at least for this MU, you are going to find stage diversity. I am also Pretty sure that the same will happen for Falco, Ice Climbers and Marth.

In the end, no matter what rule set you use, only a couple of stages are ever going to be considered when choosing a counterpick (even less when you include the ban). Also, DSR would not be a problem if both players ban a stage at the same time

 

[Life]

I think this is a good time to re-propose the hybrid system.

In brief:

1. Players start with a large stagelist and strike a few stages (maybe 1/3 of the list or so?)
2. Each player selects their counterpick stages -- these will be used from game 2 on.
3. Players strike leftover stages to get the game 1 stage.

This allows the concept of a counterpick (and thus stage diversity) to survive while still getting the most neutral stage possible for game 1. Actual number of stages struck before/after counterpicks may vary. I'm also not sure about the fairest way to integrate character selection into the process, but eh.

 

[Ghostbone]

@BPC

Technically only 3 different stages will be played on for any given match-up with our current counter-pick system anyway, ignoring player bias. It's just one is kinda neutral, and the other two are polar.

And with full stage list striking there will still be 3 different stages for any given match-up ignoring player bias. They are just all mostly neutral.

And player bias still comes into play with striking anyway, so it's unlikely you would only ever see 3 stages played for any given match-up.

And lol at never seeing Delfino play, it's actually more common than you would think. Though yea other stages would rarely see play. Though a lot of counter-picks rarely see play currently (like PS2, should be starter but since it isn't it's never played on, Castle Siege is hardly ever counter-picked either)



Anyway what did people think of the set format in Grim's thread?
It went something like.
1. Players make their character select screen choices for the first match. (double blind)
2. Players start the stage striking procedure (Striking order is 2-1-2).
3. The first game is played on the last stage remaining after striking.
4. The losing player may request that steps 1 and 2 are repeated.
5. If step 4 is skipped, the next game is played on the last stage striked by the winner of the previous match. Otherwise, the next game is played on the last remaining stage after re-striking.
6. Repeat steps 4 and 5 for each subsequent match.

Unfortunately it was overshadowed by the drought time rule but I thought I'd bring it up here.
Anyway the advantage of this over the counter-pick system is a lot of weight is taken off the first game and distributed to games 2 and 3.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

At BPC, Again, That is just player preference. If these players don't want to continue playing on the same old stages, then maybe they should strike different stages next time. I can guarantee that against Diddy Kong, every smart player is going to ban SV, FD and BF (three of his best stages). This means that at least for this MU, you are going to find stage diversity. I am also Pretty sure that the same will happen for Falco, Ice Climbers and Marth.

In the end, no matter what rule set you use, only a couple of stages are ever going to be considered when choosing a counterpick (even less when you include the ban). Also, DSR would not be a problem if both players ban a stage at the same time

How should I put it... Imagine stages on a graph for each matchup. Each stage has a certain "polarization rating" for each matchup. Now when you look at this graph in a system of striking+counterpicking, you have us being forced to choose one close to center (unless one player will willingly relinquish advantage due to either personal preference or other reasons), and then (unless you severely outplay your opponent on their counterpick) each player can choose one wherever they want, as long as the opponent has not banned it. This leads to a pretty wide array of stages; anything on the spectrum can be picked except for (presumably) the very ends of the spectrum. And because what the ends of the spectrum are changes from matchup to matchup, this means almost every stage is going to see play at some point; even a stage like brinstar may be a counterpick in a matchup like Falco-G&W after falco bans RC, or Diddy-Marth, depending on personal preference/otherwise availability. Dave's Stupid Rule improves on this by ensuring (to an extent) that the same spot on the spectrum won't be chosen twice (TBH I'd update it to be in effect regardless of whether you won or lost).

However, by only striking, you'll get only stages from one part of the spectrum in each matchup-the one in the middle. And usually, it's only going to be one stage, maybe one or two in either direction around that stage depending on the experience of the two players. Even if this were a lot of stages, you still miss out on all of the stages outside of the most balanced range. And some stages simply aren't in that range for any matchup.

Do you see the problem now? If not, then let me present a different one. Let's say there are 15 stages legal. With your system, you can just pick 7 that you never have to learn. EVER. This as opposed to 1-3 (current system and/or more bans).

I think this is a good time to re-propose the hybrid system.

In brief:

1. Players start with a large stagelist and strike a few stages (maybe 1/3 of the list or so?)
2. Each player selects their counterpick stages -- these will be used from game 2 on.
3. Players strike leftover stages to get the game 1 stage.

This allows the concept of a counterpick (and thus stage diversity) to survive while still getting the most neutral stage possible for game 1. Actual number of stages struck before/after counterpicks may vary. I'm also not sure about the fairest way to integrate character selection into the process, but eh.

This is essentially the system with more stage bans, which I will advocate heavily.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Of course, not learning stages has the inherent disadvantage of accepting worse stages for you. You may avoid learning stages that are always bad for your character (since it would always be smart to strike them), but if you avoid stages just because you don't like them for whatever irrational reason, you are only limiting yourself.

The main flaw with the current system is that just plain not enough stages are legal on most lists which does far more for making learning stages irrelevant. You have to accept no disadvantages at all to not learning Norfair if it is banned in the first place!

 

[Akaku94]

Didn't someone propose a different idea that made sense? I may be changing it a bit, but this seems pretty effective:

Game 1: Player 1 CPs from full list
Game 2: Player 2 CPs from full list
Game 3: Full Strike

 

[UberMario]

u serious? like r u trolling?

No . . . . I was actually serious.

1) regardless he could have had he chose to. But whats the point when I'm one hit away from death?

It wasn't that extreme.

2) "effectively"....uhhhh, the match was close till he got the lead and forced me to make UNSAFE decisions.

Force you to make unsafe decisions? There were nearly 6 minutes left on the clock and he was at 148%, and the first thing you did after coming back on the field was to do an aerial through the bottom of the left platform into the direction he was facing.

3) Diddy isn't good at approaching mk, this is commonly known information. Add that with having to approach from under him, and I'm not understanding what you thought should have happened considering in that scenario mk has every advantage.

Like I said, there was plenty of time on the clock and he was at high damage, I'd have thought the bananas would be a better approach, trying to get him stunned/knocked off into an aerial.

4) Lmaoooo him blocking my recovery option is not a hard read, its him utilizing the tools his chr. has to their advantages.

Your recovery option?

Also, :30-:40 involved:

-Diddy doing a jump-to-banana drop, which Meta-Knight just went through to the other side with Mach Tornado
-Diddy airdodging right above a platform into Meta's Shuttle loop
-Diddy Monkey Flipping halfway across the stage into a Mach Tornado when he was already inches above a platform.

None of those involved "recovering".

5) Idk even know what to say to that. What does that have to do with anything?

DMG was using the matchup as an excuse as for why the stage should be banned, as if Meta-Knight was tareing up the stage with tech abuses unavailable anywhere else . . . .

6)okay i know ur trolling now. I was obviously taunting cuz I had given up on the match. I was at 150/or so percent, and realized if he kept his strategy up he would win.

You weren't even at 120% before you taunted. >_>

Not to mention, when you did get him, there were still four minutes on the clock, in comparison, it took you only half-a-minute to get him up to 64%, so it's not like it was a shutout, and no I'm not trolling.

Full Stage List Striking removes a huge amount of depth from the game, as only 3 stages maximum will ever be played on.

I'm sorry, but this has to be one of the silliest arguments I've ever heard against stage-list striking.

Do you honestly think that there wouldn't be a match EVER where someone strikes FD (i.e. against Ice Climbers), BF (i.e. against Meta-Knight), or SV (i.e. against Diddy)?

Seriously . . . . . . . .

I think this is a good time to re-propose the hybrid system.

In brief:

1. Players start with a large stagelist and strike a few stages (maybe 1/3 of the list or so?)
2. Each player selects their counterpick stages -- these will be used from game 2 on.
3. Players strike leftover stages to get the game 1 stage.

This allows the concept of a counterpick (and thus stage diversity) to survive while still getting the most neutral stage possible for game 1. Actual number of stages struck before/after counterpicks may vary. I'm also not sure about the fairest way to integrate character selection into the process, but eh.

I had a similar idea awhile back:

Have an odd number of legal stages:
Each player strikes until there are only five stages left.
Each player claims two of the stages, with the remaining one becoming the "starter" of the match set.

(Why two? Well, if you played against them and lose in such a way that one of your counterpicks would make a similar-or-worse result occur, then you could always use the other, it could also serve as a "ban" in a loose sense, as you could use your 2nd "CP" as a way for it not to be used if you intend to use the other stage you chose.)


I never posted it though [or at least I don't believe I did] because I had a feeling that I'd get massively trolled due to a second idea I wanted to propose along side it to eliminate stage ban discussion. >_>

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@ BPC, What would your stage striking system be?

 

[Gnes]

No . . . . I was actually serious.



1)It wasn't that extreme.



2)Force you to make unsafe decisions? There were nearly 6 minutes left on the clock and he was at 148%, and the first thing you did after coming back on the field was to do an aerial through the bottom of the left platform into the direction he was facing.

3)Like I said, there was plenty of time on the clock and he was at high damage, I'd have thought the bananas would be a better approach, trying to get him stunned/knocked off into an aerial.



4)Your recovery option?

Also, :30-:40 involved:

-Diddy doing a jump-to-banana drop, which Meta-Knight just went through to the other side with Mach Tornado
-Diddy airdodging right above a platform into Meta's Shuttle loop
-Diddy Monkey Flipping halfway across the stage into a Mach Tornado when he was already inches above a platform.

None of those involved "recovering".





5)DMG was using the matchup as an excuse as for why the stage should be banned, as if Meta-Knight was tareing up the stage with tech abuses unavailable anywhere else . . . .



6)You weren't even at 120% before you taunted. >_>

7)Not to mention, when you did get him, there were still four minutes on the clock, in comparison, it took you only half-a-minute to get him up to 64%, so it's not like it was a shutout, and no I'm not trolling.

1)...really, how is it not extreme when I'm at 145% and he has a fresh stock. Like, even if i'm playing snake, thats....yeah....

2)yes, i tried to attack him instead of camping him which would have led to nothing since I didn't have the lead. Or maybe u suggest i grab him from under the platform...I'm really not understanding what u think should be happening when he places himself in a perfect defensive position.

3) Bananas are fine, if he was on the ground...besides if he just jumps out the way, I'm then defenseless. Diddy vs mk with naners is bad enough, without them is just ********. Also, he didnt do it but he could have just shuttle looped all of my approaches from his vantage point.

4)In most of the instances he used tornado it was me recovering, as far as i remember. The monkey flip kick is OBVIOUSLY being used to get back on stage, as was the airdodge after being juggled.

5)I dont think Dmg is arguing tech abuses, but more just general abuse mk does on that stage. I agree when he has the lead, mk if he does it right(though d4ba fought me sometimes and took risks) can be untouchable on the stage.

6) Oh shizzz, ur right.(4:05) I WAS AT 119% not 120%...

7)U try catching a runaway mk on brinstar. And yes i killed him and it was 4 minutes left. 4 minutes left for me to chase him around brinstar while not only the hazards and the stage layout helping him run, but he already has more than a stock lead. Instead of doing that, I chose to save my energy for match 3, where i won pretty easily. Regardless the times I hit him were when he chose to be aggro at the wrong times, had he just kept up his defensive play he would have won by a even larger margin.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So... Why is it that we've had this stage legal since when Brawl came out (I think?), yet you are one of the ONLY people who has complained about MK being broken here.

?

 

[Albert.]

You're seriously saying that DMG/Gnes are the only people complaining about Brinstar?


ARE YOU ****ing SERIOUS?? people?!

TONS of people have been complaining about Brinstar since day 1

ARE YOU trying to be stupid?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sorry, let me rephrase my last post.

So... Why is it that we've had this stage legal since when Brawl came out (I think?), yet you are one of the ONLY people who has complained about MK being broken here and have put forth actual evidence (questionable, but still) that it is broken..

?

 

[Albert.]

There have been NUMEROUS NUMEROUS discussions about Brinstar/MK's potency/unfairness/whatever SINCE DAY 1

I HOPE you're trolling, OR BLIND, cause that's the only excuse for that level of ignorance.

It's like trying to explain that the sky is blue, ITS just COMMON knowledge

NEO EVEN HAS A LINE in his MK Da Bess song:

"banning brinstar? I've still got three dawg!" (counterpicks)


I hope you're trolling.

Oh and don't give me this nitpicking bull**** "but you have yet to present to me tangible proof that blahblahblhalabhla"

Brinstar is super gay.

that's that.


Oh and

HUGE

RETARDEDLY UNAWARE

ironic thing to say

BPC, to DMG: that's theorycraf!!!!"

You of all people should NOT be blowing that whistle, bud.

 

[Gnes]

So... Why is it that we've had this stage legal since when Brawl came out (I think?), yet you are one of the ONLY people who has complained about MK being broken here.

?

Uh there have been countless discussions on the topic, and i've participated in a good few, especially since i've been gayed by a vast majority of mks on many different gay stages.

If you are honestly stating that you have seen NO ONE else post on the subject, your are either a new poster or have not been paying attention.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh and don't give me this nitpicking bull**** "but you have yet to present to me tangible proof that blahblahblhalabhla"

Brinstar is super gay.

that's that.

Uh there have been countless discussions on the topic, and i've participated in a good few, especially since i've been gayed by a vast majority of mks on many different gay stages.

Discussions = Theory-craft
Evidence = Actual tournament evidence
Discussions ≠ Evidence

Try harder guys.

If you are honestly stating that you have seen NO ONE else post on the subject, your are either a new poster or have not been paying attention.

Right, because despite my +3000 posts, I'm a new poster.

 

[Albert.]

If you are honestly stating that you have seen NO ONE else post on the subject, your are either a new poster or have not been paying attention.

This guy said it much nicer than I did.

But the point still stands.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

This guy said it much nicer than I did.

But the point still stands.

He put it nicer than you?

I guess that YOU consider speaking like THIS to be THE OPPOSITE OF NICE

CRUEL

To ME it just looks STUPID

 

[-LzR-]

THere are no broken attributes about Brinstar. The layout simply brings the best out of MK.
I don't know a single stage that is fine for competitive play, but is banned because of a single character who obviously beats anyone anywhere in theory.

 

[Albert.]

Discussions = Theory-craft
Evidence = Actual tournament evidence
Discussions ≠ Evidence

Try harder guys.



Right, because despite my +3000 posts, I'm a new poster.

If you want evidence, then there is PLENTY of it. MK overwhelming wins matches where he CPs Brinstar at an overwhelming ratio.

MK CP'ing Brinstar can also force the other player to CP MK in return.

Also, Gnes said something like "either you're a new poster or you haven't been paying attention."

It was a trap, you idiot. He obviously looked at your post count, saw that you weren't new, so that's kind of the by-default way of saying "you haven't been paying attention"

You responded with sarcasm that ultimately proved his point that you are either A) trolling or B) haven't been paying attention.

 

[Albert.]

THere are no broken attributes about Brinstar. The layout simply brings the best out of MK.
I don't know a single stage that is fine for competitive play, but is banned because of a single character who obviously beats anyone anywhere in theory.

Your first two sentences seem to contradict each other



Also, if you don't consider the lava or other stage hazards to be even slightly broken, then you and I are evidently on entirely different logic planets, so arguing further would just be a waste.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you want evidence Then there is PLENTY of it. MK overwhelming wins matches where he CPs Brinstar.

MK CP'ing Brinstar sometimes even results in the other player having to pick MK just to stand a chance.

The burden of proof is on you, to provide evidence for both of these claims.

Also, Gnes said something like "either you're a new poster or you haven't been paying attention."

It was a trap, you idiot. He obviously looked at your post count, saw that you weren't now, so that's THE LOGICAL way of saying "you haven't been paying attention"

You responded with sarcasm that ultimately proved his point that you are either A) trolling or B) haven't been paying attention.

He said I haven't been paying attention or I'm new.

I proved I was paying attention by refuting your arguments.

Then I proved I wasn't new.

Looks like you were the one who didn't notice my counter trap.

Also, if you don't consider the lava or other stage hazards to be even slightly broken, then you and I are evidently on entirely different logic planets, so arguing further would just be a waste.

Humour me, what is broken about the lava?

Oh, and don't double post.

 

[DMG]

Well, a lot of videos of Brinstar "shenanigans" don't get recorded. I've timed out at least 10 different people on Brinstar, and I wanna say maybe 4 of my matches (not specifically timeouts or hard abuses of the stage, but matches on Brinstar PERIOD) total are online. 2 of them against Razer, 1 of them in the Genesis Brawl Crew Battles, and another one vs d4ba. Maybe I have one of me vs Dphat on that stage as well, IDK it's been awhile since I looked. I can safely say though that most matches of me on Brinstar are not up on youtube. That's even being generous and excluding the older matches I have had on the stage.


The first two, well frankly those against Razer signaled to a lot of people what the "tip of the iceberg" looked like. Timing out Snake in a circle fashion on that stage is small beans compared to how far you can take playing gay on this stage. Some people noticed that, smart people they were. Some people said "Lol just play differently/mix it up and you can hit him" or other strange comments, from people who apparently didn't realize that Wario moves faster in the air horizontally than Snake, and that he has to go airborne to try and catch him, hence the paradox trap is sprung when he tries to catch Wario.


For those videos, basically had the same comments from people. Either "Wow this looks gay/boring" or "There's nothing wrong with this, it didn't go to a time out so obviously he wasn't abusing anything broken" which that kind of logic is a bit absurd. It would be similar to a MK using IDC for 3 minutes, and then finishing the match and someone going "Well IDC is totally legit cause the match didn't go to time" lol.


As for other people, well can't really think of any MK player who's gone to Brinstar and played like d4ba for a significant period of time during a match. MAYBE Dphat or Orion or something, but besides them I've not seen a video of M2K planking an Olimar or Tyrant/Havok/Anti/Lee/etc doing anything similar on the stage for anything more than 20 seconds or so. Part of it maybe being that Brinstar is a common ban against MK. Part of it... Idk. Ask them if they've played and recorded any gay matches on Brinstar. Lee might have some, maybe the others do as well.



Regardless, I can easily tell you we're not the first 2 people to seriously question the legality of Brinstar. Turning Brawl into positional warfare where having a better position turns into a win. Not a scenario where having a better position turns into an advantage you convert into a win from approaching or defending, but flat out "Well I'm over here, if you get close I can go over there, if you challenge me headon I don't have to accept it or I can go into the challenge with an advantage (going into the challenge with an advantage is a normal part of Brawl. However being in a position or maintaining positions where you are able to always choose FROM yes or no without repercussions? That's a bit silly if the stage is what harbors this), and if you try out-positioning me you are basically wasting time.


Winning by being more mobile than another person, instead of winning trades or outplaying the other guy. I mean, unless you want to call hitting a person a few times and then dancing around the stage positioning yourself to safety "outplaying" the other guy.


Edit: Yes... Gnes you have been gayed on Brinstar by a Rainbow of people lol. Most of those aren't recorded though, but yeah you've been on the receiving end of "Brinstar Love" more than anyone else I can think of.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well, a lot of videos of Brinstar "shenanigans" don't get recorded. I've timed out at least 10 different people on Brinstar, and I wanna say maybe 4 of my matches (not specifically timeouts or hard abuses of the stage, but matches on Brinstar PERIOD) total are online. 2 of them against Razer, 1 of them in the Genesis Brawl Crew Battles, and another one vs d4ba. Maybe I have one of me vs Dphat on that stage as well, IDK it's been awhile since I looked. I can safely say though that most matches of me on Brinstar are not up on youtube. That's even being generous and excluding the older matches I have had on the stage.

I have 100 videos of me timing out people on Final Destination that aren't on Youtube.

I have 500 more matches I can remember that weren't recorded.

The first two, well frankly those against Razer signaled to a lot of people what the "tip of the iceberg" looked like. Timing out Snake in a circle fashion on that stage is small beans compared to how far you can take playing gay on this stage. Some people noticed that, smart people they were. Some people said "Lol just play differently/mix it up and you can hit him" or other strange comments, from people who apparently didn't realize that Wario moves faster in the air horizontally than Snake, and that he has to go airborne to try and catch him, hence the paradox trap is sprung when he tries to catch Wario.

I'm pretty sure Wario can time people out on multiple legal stages >_>
It's a legit win condition for him.

For those videos, basically had the same comments from people. Either "Wow this looks gay/boring" or "There's nothing wrong with this, it didn't go to a time out so obviously he wasn't abusing anything broken" which that kind of logic is a bit absurd. It would be similar to a MK using IDC for 3 minutes, and then finishing the match and someone going "Well IDC is totally legit cause the match didn't go to time" lol.

...
Ok...?

As for other people, well can't really think of any MK player who's gone to Brinstar and played like d4ba for a significant period of time during a match. MAYBE Dphat or Orion or something, but besides them I've not seen a video of M2K planking an Olimar or Tyrant/Havok/Anti/Lee/etc doing anything similar on the stage for anything more than 20 seconds or so. Part of it maybe being that Brinstar is a common ban against MK. Part of it... Idk. Ask them if they've played and recorded any gay matches on Brinstar. Lee might have some, maybe the others do as well.

Burden of proof is on you. You ask them yourself.

Regardless, I can easily tell you we're not the first 2 people to seriously question the legality of Brinstar.

Yet you are one of the first to provide possible evidence rather than theory-craft.

Turning Brawl into positional warfare where having a better position turns into a win. Not a scenario where having a better position turns into an advantage you convert into a win from approaching or defending, but flat out "Well I'm over here, if you get close I can go over there, if you challenge me headon I don't have to accept it or I can go into the challenge with an advantage (going into the challenge with an advantage is a normal part of Brawl. However being in a position or maintaining positions where you are able to always choose FROM yes or no without repercussions? That's a bit silly if the stage is what harbors this), and if you try out-positioning me you are basically wasting time.

Can you prove that this position provides a win?

Winning by being more mobile than another person, instead of winning trades or outplaying the other guy. I mean, unless you want to call hitting a person a few times and then dancing around the stage positioning yourself to safety "outplaying" the other guy.

Meta Knight can do exactly that by a mixture of scrooging and planking on Smashville. Going to ban that stage too?

 

[DMG]

Ah, but Smashville is different. As you stated, he does similar things through planking and scrooging. Those two tactics already have come "under fire" and tend to be limited to prevent stalling from taking place. A Ledge Grab Limit for example addresses planking (whether it does a good job or not is to be seen), and I personally know a few TO's who've added scrooging or "flying under stage" limits/rules concerning those things.

Now, let MK be able to put himself in similarly powerful situations... Without edge grabbing, and without needing to go completely crossed under the stage to do so. Now what? That's basically Brinstar compared to Smashville. 1 stage with 2 tactics that tend to be regulated or limited, vs the other stage where you can "circumvent" those regulations and limitations through different tactic abuses. Brinstar is a whole nother world compared to Smashville: permanent sharking combined with that kind of jagged broken up terrain that forces aerial maneuvering to catch opponents? It spells trouble from the getgo.