Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Browny]

I enjoy not getting mad at video games

Playing on PS2/Brinstar/RC makes me mad

I enjoy not playing on PS2/Brinstar/RC

The question that remains is, why do I get mad? You can tell yourself it because I cant adapt, I'll say because I dont think the outcomes of matches on said stages are indicative of an overall skill comparison. Who cares though?

 

[-LzR-]

Different opinions are fine, but they have no meaning here.
I enjoy playing on Brinstar and PS2 pretty much the best. Should I be allowed to play on them all day or what.

 

[Ghostbone]

Different opinions are fine, but they have no meaning here.
I enjoy playing on Brinstar and PS2 pretty much the best. Should I be allowed to play on them all day or what.

Pretty much this, you can prefer to play on some stages, doesn't mean they should be the only ones legal.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I enjoy not getting mad at video games

Playing on PS2/Brinstar/RC makes me mad

I enjoy not playing on PS2/Brinstar/RC

So... ban DDD? Or any other character matchup you hate? I mean, what's the difference? I enjoy not playing against ICs; playing against them makes me mad. It's not about preference when it comes to competition; otherwise you could craft the ruleset so that you could always win.

The question that remains is, why do I get mad? You can tell yourself it because I cant adapt, I'll say because I dont think the outcomes of matches on said stages are indicative of an overall skill comparison. Who cares though?

And then I can continue to say (and prove, thank you very much) that you are wrong, and that your belief is logically wrong, and that holding that position is akin to believing in a geocentric solar system.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah, I only posted here coz BPC singled me out in his post lol.

Please understand the difference between trying to create an argument for a fair, unbiased, balanced stage list and what I posted, my opinion of stages which are neutral/non-neutral lol.

God its not different to me posting my opinion of the tier list in the tier thread once every few months rofl.

First paragraph of OP:
This thread is to discuss the legality of specific stages in Super Smash Brothers Brawl. Examples of things that might be discussed in this topic would be "Delfino Plaza is a good starter" or "Distant Planet should be banned".

Hell, this thread's title is "Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific"

The key word here being DISCUSS

It's fine expected that you post your own opinions here, no matter how fallacious they may be, because this is a discussion. We're here to gather and discuss everyone's perspectives on stages in order to benefit the entire competitive Brawl community. Don't post here if you don't want people to discuss what you have to say/ask.

Actually, forget that last sentence. STOP WANTING PEOPLE TO NOT DISCUSS WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY/ASK.

My question: Are there any rules regarding Kirby's down-b glitch on Pictochat? Can Kirby be grabbed/somehow knocked out of it? Does it work on any other starter and/or counterpick stages? If no applies to all 3, shouldn't Pictochat (and any other stages that the glitch may work on) be removed from starter/counterpick until a rule IS made regarding it? It seems like Kirby's MUs would be skewed heavily because of it.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, then here it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR4goNUiMqc

 

[Akaku94]

It can be used on PS1, Brinstar, and a couple of others. For Kirby it's not a very useful tactic competetive play. Since it ends (with considerable lag), it can't be used to stall, and any sane player will just stay away. Couple that with the fact that most kirby players don't use our down-b anyway, and it's basically a nonissue. The only two things that are banned specifically are MK's infinite cape and, to a lesser extent, infinites (only when used beyond 300%; this is to prevent stalling by use of a chaingrab or something similar).

The short version is "No rules about it since it is not a broken tactic"

Welcome to SWF

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Pretty much; if you use that to stall, expect your opponent's most powerful attack the moment the duration of the rock ends. It's really pretty weak.

 

[infiniteV115]

Oh, I thought it lasted forever. My mistake.
And thank you Akaku94 for that "Welcome to SWF (adorable Kirby icon)"

And am I crazy for thinking Corneria shouldn't be banned? There are only 3 problems I can see with Corneria.

1: Possibility for wall infinites.
2: Arwing lasers
3: Blast zones are close to the stage perimeter.

(I guess not only 3 problems) And MAYBE circle (not really a circle but whatever) camping with Fox and Sonic. But it doesn't seem too likely.

1) Avoiding wall infinites seems like it would be fairly easy on this stage. It seems like it'd be much easier to avoid them here than on GGs, and GGs made it on the counterpick list.

2) Like Norfair, GGs and PTAD, players are given enough of a warning to be able to react to the stage hazards, and they don't even appear that often. And again, Norfair, GGs and PTAD made it to the CG list. Maybe sometimes the Arwing's beams can hit you from off camera, but the same can be said for GGs blocks.

3) Close blast zones apply to all players and is something that all players should be able to adapt to. And they're not extremely close. And perhaps they can slightly tip the MU in favour of one of the players (eg Snake vs Diddy, Snake would gain the advantage due to contrast in weight) but isn't that the entire POINT of a CG?

If it can be shown that circle camping is quite possible on this stage, then keep it banned because circle camping is just...no. Otherwise, nominate Corneria for counterpick!

I figure there's something I'm not seeing here, because there's probably a reason as to why it's banned. Or perhaps it has to do with one of the aspects I mentioned, and there's a flaw in my reasoning. In either case, can someone tell me why Corneria isn't a viable counterpick?

kthxbai

 

[Ghostbone]

Well the wall is a reaaaaaally powerful camping position. Mainly because being above someone is a terrible position to be in in brawl, and the fin forces you to approach from above.

Like, you get the lead with some characters (MK or Dedede in many matchups) and you basically just camp under the fin for the rest of the game, and it's really hard for it to be overcome.
The wall here is much worse than on GG, because it's permanent, while on GG you can destroy the wall.

There's also the problem of the gun under the stage randomly killing players. Which means sonic can homing attack stall right above the gun, and if you try to approach him you risk instant death.

G&W can bucket the shots of the airwings, which can lead to OHKOs, and Ness and Lucas can recover tonnes of health from them.

Corneria is one of the few stages that people actually tried out in tournaments and found conclusive proof that it should be banned.

 

[infiniteV115]

I see. Thanks.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Pretty much. Corneria's whole issue is that the fin is an almost unapproachable camping spot, and nothing the stage does makes this any better over the course of the match (for example, it's very hard to approach on the fire segmanet of PS1, but it's only temporary).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

PTAD, I think it's clearly ban-worthy, what do others think?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Questionable; depends on how ridiculous MK is there. I'm leaning towards legal. Why would you ban it?

 

[-LzR-]

That is the most borderline stage for me in the game. I can't make up my mind about it so I just keep it banned. It's a hell of a lot fun anyways. Oh and don't say anything about the cars, they are not the issue.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Again, why ban it? What is the issue? I mean, the cars are clearly a complete non-issue.

 

[Life]

He's probably talking sharking and lack of ledges. The former exists on other stages so I don't personally mind (Delfino/Brinstar, here's lookin' atcha) and MK/Pit et.al. have to watch the floor lest it hit them and they become vulnerable. No ledges is a plus because MK is no longer unwinnable (provided, of course, pplanking is the problem it should be). It's a problem for tether recoverers, but you generally have the floor to help you get back up if you're one of those. The cars are predictable, have safe zones, and aid characters who have trouble killing (Samus, Sonic

Spoiler

lolbias

come to mind). They might be a tad too powerful when you do get hit, but you should almost never get hit unless your opponent outplays you. (The cars on certain transformations can be powershielded ala Norfair's lava. I'm not sure if it's all of them, but I know the transformation that's a straight flat surface with walkoffs can.)

I'd leave it legal. Perfect counterpick material.

 

[-LzR-]

Again, I don't know >_>

The stage is so difficult for me to think about so I leave it alone for now. My community also hates it.

 

[Ghostbone]

Lack of edges is cancelled out by the floor generally. (which while dealing damage isn't that unreasonable considering players can take that much damage when recovering on other stages)
And it's a counter-pick quality not a ban criteria.

The cars are easily avoidable once you learn their pattern. (the cars are actually non random I believe, besides for slight positioning changes between them, it's just where the platform drops that's random) And when you are hit into them that's your opponent outplaying you.
As others have said the cars can help characters who can rack up damage but can't kill.

Temporary walk-offs are part of other stages as well (Delfino and Castle Siege come to mind).


So there's no real problem, aside from possibly MK being too good on it, though I doubt that.
Also I find it funny people complain MK is too powerful with ledges.
And then he's also apparently too powerful without them.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Also I find it funny people complain MK is too powerful with ledges.
And then he's also apparently too powerful without them.

Coincidence?

 

[Ghostbone]

Coincidence?

Walk-offs are where it's at

 

[Tesh]

Other folks need ledges way more than MK does. Water actually presents less problems than walkoffs and ledges.

Sandy Beach on Delfino is the most balanced stage in the game!

 

[-LzR-]

So if I have such stages as Norfair, Japes, Green Greens and Pictochat legal should I have no reason to ban PTAD?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So if I have such stages as Norfair, Japes, Green Greens and Pictochat legal should I have no reason to ban PTAD?

You have no reason to ban PTAD.

Do you have YI:M legal?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Do you have YI:M legal?

I do =P
This far, I've never found a good, consistent ciriteria against it.


EDIT: and about PTAD, I found the stage design unique and wonderful... Only thing i don't like is cars killing at retardedly low %... (they kills about 40%, if it were70-80 they'd be perfectly fine).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I do =P
This far, I've never found a good, consistent ciriteria against it.


EDIT: and about PTAD, I found the stage design unique and wonderful... Only thing i don't like is cars killing at retardedly low %... (they kills about 40%, if it were70-80 they'd be perfectly fine).

I think the only banned stages should be:
75m
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow
Mario Bros.
Mario Circuit
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld (I'm VERY MUCH on the fence about this)
Spear Pillar
Summit
Wario Ware Inc.
Big Blue (I'd love to test this more)
Corneria
Temple

Any liberals disagree?

 

[Tesh]

Wario Ware is totally legit. Its a calculated risk picking that stage. Just like Pictochat. The hazards are harmless and the walkoff segments are temporary. Power ups aren't more powerful than the random things that might happen on other legal stages.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You're hopefully joking, but I'll bite.

Power ups aren't more powerful than the random things that might happen on other legal stages.

See? Here is your problem. Yes, they are.

With this stage legal, the game will be over-centralized around the rewards. No point approaching until the micro-game comes. Once the micro game comes, you try and win. Then it is up to chance who takes that stock. Rinse and repeat.

The problem isn't the amount of chance, it is the importance of chance.

Compare to Pictochat, were getting lucky won't win you the game. On this stage though, IT WILL.

 

[Tesh]

You can do that on Pictochat too. And Norfair. Hell any transforming stage I can just wait for "the good part".

I always stall on the boat with MK on Rainbow Cruise.
I always wait for the walkoffs on Delfino with DDD.

You're opponent can just approach you if you are trying to wait for good luck. Just like any other stage with random elements.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can do that on Pictochat too. And Norfair. Hell any transforming stage I can just wait for "the good part".

I always stall on the boat with MK on Rainbow Cruise.
I always wait for the walkoffs on Delfino with DDD.

Yet you don't stall on Pictochat?

I'm assuming that's because you can't predict when the game will favour you as well as you can on RC, Delfino and WarioWare.

 

[-LzR-]

Test I know what you are doing and I won't even fall for it.

I don't have YI:M legal. Should I ask my scene for their opinions about the stage or what?
The cars don't really kill at 40% unless you are Puff and if you DI.

 

[Tesh]

Why did you even bring up RC? Thats not random at all. There isn't anything to predict. Pictochat is better because you can't predict what will happen? People stall on Pictochat btw. It happens.

You are also forgetting there is a risk/reward system on WW for winning a mini game. You can get something good like food or a start. Or something bad like being huge (ask Bowser, it ain't fun). So you can patiently wait for random events, but just like Pictochat, you might not get what you hoped for.

You aren't gonna fall for what LzR? I just want a legitimate reason for banning WW that doesn't apply to stages that you believe should be legal.

I'm all for YI:M. There is a slight issue with chaingrabs on the slopes. Lack of confirmation about who can do what to who on the slopes. Pertaining to Pika, Falco, MK and DDD. There might even be potential for circle camping in select matchups. Extremes like DDD/Ganon vs Pikachu/Sonic might make it impossible for the slower character to chase. Not a huge issue though, considering how RC can do that same in select matchups.

 

[-LzR-]

WW is like the most banned stage ever. Marginalizes skill or something, it's all about getting lucky.
You might both win the minigame. You become big, opponent gets a super star. Talk about "skill".

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why did you even bring up RC? Thats not random at all. There isn't anything to predict. Pictochat is better because you can't predict what will happen? People stall on Pictochat btw. It happens.

You are also forgetting there is a risk/reward system on WW for winning a mini game. You can get something good like food or a start. Or something bad like being huge (ask Bowser, it ain't fun). So you can patiently wait for random events, but just like Pictochat, you might not get what you hoped for.

I brought up RC because you did. I never said it was random. And saying there isn't anything is to predict on RC is a complete fallacy. Something doesn't have to be random to be predicted.

People stall on Pictochat specifically to just wait for the opponent to get gayed by one of the least likely hazards in the game? Bull-****.

Again: It can't be compared to Pictochat because the randomness has a much greater impact on the game's result. That is the one point you have consistently ignored in this ridiculous argument. The better player can CONSISTENTLY lose on that stage due to the randomness, unlike on Pictochat.

I probably should have better clarified my claim that stalling until you get lucky is the best option better. I was mainly referring to playing against someone who is reasonably better than you, rather than an equal match.

 

[-LzR-]

I played against this guy who I consistently beat by taking like 20% damage per match. Then we went WW and he 2 stocked my twice in a row.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I played against this guy who I consistently beat by taking like 20% damage per match. Then we went WW and he 2 stocked my twice in a row.

This.

Once people start consistently losing to worse players on Pictochat, then you might have an argument.

So far every video of Pictochat "gaying" people has been one of the following:
a) Legitimately random. (very un-common)
b) Getting out-played.
c) Reasonably avoidable (very common)

 

[Tesh]

So the fact that its easier to predict and deal with transformations on WW makes it worse? Because people can plan/hope on abusing stage advantages?

People who lose on Wario Ware weren't the better player on Wario Ware! Its a different kind of skill required. Its not FD. It places an emphasis on learning how to win the mini games only present in this stage. This stage is SUPPOSED to centralize around the mini games. That doesn't make is skill diminishing though.

I'd rather my opponent take a risk and randomly get 10 seconds of invincibility than get gimped by pictochat.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Read the 8-Bit Ultimatum thread.

Mario Bros. is banned for that very reason (as well as Falco and Pit possibly being over-powered there).

And I repeat: The winner isn't even determined by who is better at the mini-games. With WarioWare legal, Ireland would become the dominant smashing country.

 

[Tesh]

You conservatives just cling to your petty beliefs on stage legality. You refuse to open your eyes to the idea of large stagelists. Maybe if you actually played the stage you would think otherwise.

 

[-LzR-]

Tesh, winning a minigame doesn't win the stage. Winning a minigame and getting the better reward is how to win. And you can't control it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm done with this.

Anyway, BPC was supposed to tell me why crafting a conservative stage list designed only to test the core gameplay skills was objectively worse than a liberal stage list, but he never did.

NAME SEARCH:
BPC
Budget Player Cadet

For example, imagine a stage-list of Smashville, Delfino Plaza and Pokemon Stadium 2.