Official: SSBPD unsupported; source code released.

[Zivilyn Bane]

If you specify a player skill greater than 10 in Tio, it will seed based on those values. However, if you go to the Players tab and select a player who's skill is set to a number greater than 10, Tio will crash on you.

So I can offer much better seeding (basically I can assign N players skill from 1 to N, in order of their rating) at the cost of you not being able to select them under Players*. That means that you can't change their name, nickname, skill, or location anymore in the seeded version.

How do people feel about this tradeoff?
Should I just make it a separate option? What do people think about this?

*The Events -> Entrants tab is safe, but you can't modify any values there.

You can modify values on the entrants tab by right clicking and edit. That's how I do it anyways. In fact I almost never use the players tab.

 

[Bones0]

That's the way most countries do it, but there are a few, including Sweden, that have YYMMDD as the official order. However it's about as official as the metric system is in the UK, meaning people still use mostly DDMMYY, but on official papers the YYMMDD is used.

What country uses DMY? I think you mean MDY, since that's what the US uses. Today's date is April 7th, 2012 with the shorthand version being 4/7/12. My computer says so. lol

 

[FoxLisk]

You can modify values on the entrants tab by right clicking and edit. That's how I do it anyways. In fact I almost never use the players tab.

Ah, didn't know that. That will still cause a crash.

In other news, if you go to the Regions tab, you will now find two aggregate regions - the US and Europe. Before you bring up that that is a narrow-minded and insufficient selection of region groups for me to provide, please log in and go to your account, where you can now create custom region groups to provide easy access to whatever personal grudges you're most interested in studying!

edit wtf something went wrong, these statements will be true soon

Also, since I didn't mention it earlier, you can now choose to stay logged in between visits instead of having to log in each time, flags on some screens that didnt have mouseover text now do, elo graphs line up correctly with the dates of the tournaments, and you can now get slightly different seedings for pools/bracket.

 

[Bones0]

*bows down*

 

[KishPrime]

One of the ancient greats!
http://www.ssbpd.com/tournament/MELEE-FC3

I uploaded what I have left from FC6 (14 second-round pools, I believe), but there are issues with them. Hopefully they show up soon as well!

The massive mess of FCD is all that's left, and I am not certain when those would come through.

 

[ajp_anton]

What country uses DMY? I think you mean MDY, since that's what the US uses. Today's date is April 7th, 2012 with the shorthand version being 4/7/12. My computer says so. lol

I've *never* seen MDY *anywhere* except in the US, and trust me, I've been to a lot of places. DMY is by far the most used format around the world.
Some countries use YMD, either exclusively or together with DMY, but everyone understands YMD since it's the "international" format.

 

[Kal]

This is definitely false.

I just don't think it's a good idea to start subjectively deciding what tournaments have results "that count." Straying from a ruleset (e.g. playing a totally different game) is one thing, but making judgments based on how much money the players spent seems a little ridiculous.

What's the difference between "those players weren't trying because the tournament was free" and "those players weren't trying because the entry fee was too low?"

I think a dichotomy is truly appropriate in this case, because it really does account for any possible problems. It makes it so that all tournaments have weight. There is no longer any justification for not trying as hard as you can, because the database will reflect your performance.

Seeing as it's definitely a matter of opinion, though, I don't think it makes sense to claim any stance is "definitely false."

 

[FoxLisk]

I just don't think it's a good idea to start subjectively deciding what tournaments have results "that count." Straying from a ruleset (e.g. playing a totally different game) is one thing, but making judgments based on how much money the players spent seems a little ridiculous.

What's the difference between "those players weren't trying because the tournament was free" and "those players weren't trying because the entry fee was too low?"

I think a dichotomy is truly appropriate in this case, because it really does account for any possible problems. It makes it so that all tournaments have weight. There is no longer any justification for not trying as hard as you can, because the database will reflect your performance.

Seeing as it's definitely a matter of opinion, though, I don't think it makes sense to claim any stance is "definitely false."

well it's definitely false because we're already not in a place where we "either accept all results or no results," because we reject low tier tournaments. So... it's definitely false.

Anyway, I still disagree. You make it sound like I'm not allowed to hold a casual drunken tournament with friends and then not upload it. I am definitely allowed to do that. If someone hosts a casual tournament like that and the players/TO agree that it wasn't something to upload, that's their prerogative. In some cases I would be very upset about that, but there's a grey area where it's okay to let the people involved decide.

It would be one thing if we had a governing body and sanctioned tournaments and stuff, but since we obviously don't, we don't have an easy way to distinguish an "official" tournament from one that shouldn't count.

 

[Kal]

Again, "definitely false" doesn't really apply to a matter of opinion of what tournaments we should be allowing. Regardless, "low tier tournament" is clearly a totally different ruleset.

I think you might be misunderstanding my point if you think I'm claiming what individuals are and are not allowed to do. My point is strictly with regards to what results SSBPD should accept. I don't think it's a good idea for the SSBPD to start looking at entry fees and deciding "sorry, this tournament's entry fee was too low."

 

[FoxLisk]

I think you might be misunderstanding my point if you think I'm claiming what individuals are and are not allowed to do. My point is strictly with regards to what results SSBPD should accept. I don't think it's a good idea for the SSBPD to start looking at entry fees and deciding "sorry, this tournament's entry fee was too low."

i guess so. i sort of interpreted okami's post as indicating that he wasnt interested in uploading it, and then misremembered the conversation with that filter applied. if he thinks it should be uploaded we'll definitely accept it.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

FoxLisk is also saying we shouldn't decide that a tournament can't be uploaded based alone off entry fee. So you two seem to be agreeing.

 

[FoxLisk]

yeah, sorry about kinda being a **** there.

Anyway, I'm having some sort of technical difficulty that I can't solve on my own so the features I promised you won't be out until I hear back from the hosting provider Sorry about that, guys.

 

[Kal]

It's ok, we still love each other. Friendship is magic.

 

[FoxLisk]

Hey guys am aware the site is down. Can't fix it until I get home. Remain calm.

edit: it's up again, everything should be okay now and region groups, etc are live now!

 

[Inty17]

Inty I can fix that for you tonight. I try to get some verification with either a YouTube vid or the TO. Do you have either? Or OkamiBW, were you the TO for that event?

I would have loved to record it, but there was only one recorded setup at the last G-rev. Made us all really sad too, and we missed out on a lot of amazing.

And thanks for fixing it honestly I don't have much to show for myself yet, since I got into the tournament scene last summer, and its nice to know that I'm slightly less terrible.

And thanks to OkamiBW for helping me actually get noticed :D

 

[FoxLisk]

Hey guys, whoever uploaded shell shocked 6 and 7 - those files do not have results for the grand finals matches. If you could be so kind as to fill us in, i'd like to get those completed. In the interim, the not-quite-complete results are now up.

 

[Juggleguy]

I uploaded four tourneys, called BAMF 1-4, a couple weeks ago. Can someone approve those?

 

[Nintendude]

Hey guys, whoever uploaded shell shocked 6 and 7 - those files do not have results for the grand finals matches. If you could be so kind as to fill us in, i'd like to get those completed. In the interim, the not-quite-complete results are now up.

That usually means that the grand finals was split.

 

[Svetsunov]

Man, Mango 2 elo above PP

 

[FoxLisk]

I uploaded four tourneys, called BAMF 1-4, a couple weeks ago. Can someone approve those?

Sure, i'll take a look right now.

Who are David! and Jamie! from BAMF3? Are those their normal tags or do they have something more unique I can use?

Also, apasher is lower cased in all of these files but upper case on the db - can you confirm which one is the canonical spelling?

 

[Fizzi]

Ah, didn't know that. That will still cause a crash.

In other news, if you go to the Regions tab, you will now find two aggregate regions - the US and Europe. Before you bring up that that is a narrow-minded and insufficient selection of region groups for me to provide, please log in and go to your account, where you can now create custom region groups to provide easy access to whatever personal grudges you're most interested in studying!

edit wtf something went wrong, these statements will be true soon

Also, since I didn't mention it earlier, you can now choose to stay logged in between visits instead of having to log in each time, flags on some screens that didnt have mouseover text now do, elo graphs line up correctly with the dates of the tournaments, and you can now get slightly different seedings for pools/bracket.

Are custom created regions just being treated as an alias for the regions you select when you create it? Or do they actually function separately?

How large do you want these regions to be? Do you intend it to be similar to the sub-region hierarchy similar to what I suggested in one of my first posts on this thread? Basically I'm curious as to what you're envisioning with creating regions like this.

 

[FoxLisk]

Are custom created regions just being treated as an alias for the regions you select when you create it? Or do they actually function separately?

How large do you want these regions to be? Do you intend it to be similar to the sub-region hierarchy similar to what I suggested in one of my first posts on this thread? Basically I'm curious as to what you're envisioning with creating regions like this.

They're just an alias for the regions you select. I'm not sure what else they could be used for, but if you think of something let me know.

I don't care how large these regions are, or whatever. They're for you to browse regions at whatever level of granularity you like. If you just always want to see west coast, you can do that much more easily now. If you want to see USA vs the world, you can create a "world" region group and have it easily available to you.

 

[ph00tbag]

It'd be really neat if rather than just assign a player a character in a broad sweep, you could assign each set a character, or characters. That way, you could get an overall Elo for every player, but you could get a character-specific Elo as well.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

It'd be really neat if rather than just assign a player a character in a broad sweep, you could assign each set a character, or characters. That way, you could get an overall Elo for every player, but you could get a character-specific Elo as well.

This is already possible. Only mods can do it though.

 

[FoxLisk]

It'd be really neat if rather than just assign a player a character in a broad sweep, you could assign each set a character, or characters. That way, you could get an overall Elo for every player, but you could get a character-specific Elo as well.

This is already possible.

yep. youll notice that, e.g., armada's sets against hbox are tagged as young link.

I haven't set up a way for users to flag individual sets as incorrectly labeled because I figure it's below most people's threshold of interest. If I'm wrong about that I can set something up.

edit:

Case sensitivity should be... roughly fixed now. You can still do dirty, ****ed up enough things to a tio file to run into issues with it if you're really out to hurt me, but normal use cases should be solved.

 

[LLDL]

Found some more old tournaments, melee history nonetheless, and will be uploading shortly.

I'm actually going to go on a spree, searching for old tournament in the results archive. I've found quite a bit, but a lot of them don't have brackets.

 

[Juggleguy]

Sure, i'll take a look right now.

Who are David! and Jamie! from BAMF3? Are those their normal tags or do they have something more unique I can use?

Also, apasher is lower cased in all of these files but upper case on the db - can you confirm which one is the canonical spelling?

Those two were random locals who entered as their first name. I figured putting an exclamation mark at the end would help distinguish them from any existing David or Jamie tags, since Ziv said it's a pain for the mods to have to do it.

apasher (lowercased) is the correct spelling.

 

[Bones0]

This is already possible. Only mods can do it though.

But there aren't character specific Elo ratings. I believe he has something in mind like being able to go to Mew2King and see his Elo, then below that you have his Elo rating if you only count his Marth sets, only his Sheik sets, etc. I'm not sure what you could do about sets where a player uses multiple characters though. Being able to set it up like this would also enable us to have more accurate statistics for how many people actually play Sheik (or w/e character) instead of just main her, or what player is the most successful with his secondaries. Being able to break down which characters were played during which games would allow for even more interesting data because you could compare matchups, and look at which player is the most successful with his counterpicks, etc. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how reasonable all of that is without Tio files being uploaded with game counts and character selections. It'd seem like it would need a LOT of manual editing for people to go in and change each individual matches where a player used a secondary, and finding the data of who used what character in the first place would be extremely difficult if it isn't done AT the tournament.


@Juggleguy
When that happens, I would just put "-MI" or whatever state you're in at the end of their name.

 

[Fizzi]

They're just an alias for the regions you select. I'm not sure what else they could be used for, but if you think of something let me know.

I don't care how large these regions are, or whatever. They're for you to browse regions at whatever level of granularity you like. If you just always want to see west coast, you can do that much more easily now. If you want to see USA vs the world, you can create a "world" region group and have it easily available to you.

The way it's currently implemented though, how do you create smaller groups?

For example - I attempted to create a group called Montreal. In my choices, however, the only thing that makes sense is Canada - Canada is not in Montreal, it's the other way around.

Essentially the current system allows for the creation of bigger groups but not smaller. These groups are really just sets. So in short, the system allows you to say which regions are subsets of your new bigger set. It would be nice to also be capable of making subsets of current sets. In this case though, you could only select ONE set in which to create a new subset (I would create Montreal as a subset of Canada).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm just waiting for the CRL to happen out of this

 

[Bones0]

I'm just waiting for the CRL to happen out of this

What is CRL? Character ranking list?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah

 

[FoxLisk]

But there aren't character specific Elo ratings. I believe he has something in mind like being able to go to Mew2King and see his Elo, then below that you have his Elo rating if you only count his Marth sets, only his Sheik sets, etc.

but this doesn't make sense at all

I'm not sure what you could do about sets where a player uses multiple characters though.

my general heuristic has been to pick the character they won with if they won, and the character they played more games otherwise, when those are known.

Being able to set it up like this would also enable us to have more accurate statistics for how many people actually play Sheik (or w/e character) instead of just main her, or what player is the most successful with his secondaries. Being able to break down which characters were played during which games would allow for even more interesting data because you could compare matchups, and look at which player is the most successful with his counterpicks, etc. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how reasonable all of that is without Tio files being uploaded with game counts and character selections. It'd seem like it would need a LOT of manual editing for people to go in and change each individual matches where a player used a secondary, and finding the data of who used what character in the first place would be extremely difficult if it isn't done AT the tournament.

yup.

The way it's currently implemented though, how do you create smaller groups?

you can't create smaller groups because that data doesn't exist

Essentially the current system allows for the creation of bigger groups but not smaller. These groups are really just sets. So in short, the system allows you to say which regions are subsets of your new bigger set. It would be nice to also be capable of making subsets of current sets. In this case though, you could only select ONE set in which to create a new subset (I would create Montreal as a subset of Canada).

when i asked about what regions should exist, the granularity that I was asked to implement was one per country and one for each state, so that's all you can get right now. Picking regions too small or too large is annoying, so I went with this. If some regions need to be split into multiple sub-regions, we can talk about that.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

select name, elo
From players
Where name in
(Select name
From usercreatedregion);

Imo

 

[Bones0]

What would Mew2King's Elo be if you ignore all of the sets where he played Sheik/Fox? I'm not particularly interested in it just fyi, I just think that's what the other person was suggesting in an effort to get some sort of comparison of some player's main vs. secondary.

 

[FoxLisk]

What would Mew2King's Elo be if you ignore all of the sets where he played Sheik/Fox? I'm not particularly interested in it just fyi, I just think that's what the other person was suggesting in an effort to get some sort of comparison of some player's main vs. secondary.

That's not a question you can answer. If you ignore the sets where he doesn't play marth, then you don't count those sets for his opponents, either, and then their elo is wrong, and everyone that they play has the wrong rating, and inevitably m2k will play someone along the chain with marth again, and so his elo will be wrong by extension.

 

[Bones0]

What about only counting Marth sets in the calculation of his Elo, but counting all of his sets in the calculation of everyone else's Elo? Sort of like creating a new player just for Mew2King's Marth (but without him having any impact on other peoples' Elo).

Meh... I really don't care because I'm not sure the rating would have any meaningful difference anyway... I don't think Mew2King having a higher Elo with Marth or Sheik proves that he is better with that character anyway. Just brainstorming. :D

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

It might be more useful to just show win percentages when a player uses JUST Marth, ect. Although that type of information is so situational. If somebody just wins a lot vs noob lvl Peach players, the win% doesn't really mean a lot. Whereas Elo itself would account for those players being subpar and not award as many points for it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I thought he was suggesting that each character has elo

 

[Nintendude]

Found some more old tournaments, melee history nonetheless, and will be uploading shortly.

I'm actually going to go on a spree, searching for old tournament in the results archive. I've found quite a bit, but a lot of them don't have brackets.

Can you let me know what you find? I just want to make sure we aren't doing duplicate work. Also, do you know if anyone got the tio file for no johns?