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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

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Barbasol

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I don't see why Ike is making so many people's lists of executions. He's the first international Lord, and is the main in two games. He's actually quite deserving to be in Brawl, he's not just the next Roy, contrary to what some people perceive him to be.
 

AetherEch0s

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because Ganondorf needs Ike's moveset? Thats why he should leave? lol

ROB was the first "computer" player with decent ai. That makes him an important icon to Nintendo. As a retro character, he should stay. ROB, Ice Climbers, Mr. Game and Watch and formerly Pit and Little Mac represernt the importance of Nintendo's past. Although some of the games arent getting remade, they were still deserving of represerentation.
 

Spydr Enzo

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I don't see why Ike is making so many people's lists of executions. He's the first international Lord, and is the main in two games. He's actually quite deserving to be in Brawl, he's not just the next Roy, contrary to what some people perceive him to be.
Wasn't Lyn the first international Lord?

The reason I think Ike could leave is because Fire Emblem doesn't seem to be moving anywhere right now, and his execution would make way for more deserving characters. Marth would stay because he started it all, and Fire Emblem is a big part of Nintendo's history and a big part of Smash... so completely cutting Fire Emblem wouldn't make sense.

Honestly, though, the only character I see getting cut is Lucario.
 
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They got rid of Mewtwo, who was much more deserving, Jigglypuff should have also left. It has no importance to Pokemon.
If she wasn't important, why was she chosen among all the pokemons to be in smash bros?

About Snake, I don't know if he'll be removed. I know he doesn't fit the vibe of brawl but his appearance changed the reputation of brawl along with Sonic.
 

Barbasol

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Wasn't Lyn the first international Lord?

The reason I think Ike could leave is because Fire Emblem doesn't seem to be moving anywhere right now, and his execution would make way for more deserving characters. Marth would stay because he started it all, and Fire Emblem is a big part of Nintendo's history and a big part of Smash... so completely cutting Fire Emblem wouldn't make sense.

Honestly, though, the only character I see getting cut is Lucario.
*Smacks forehead* Oh yeah, you're partly right... I keep forgetting about the GBA games.

Well, Lyn was actually one of three lords in her game along with Hector and Eliwood (I think... some standard sword dude).

I can't imagine Fire Emblem dropping below two slots regardless. It's a very popular series and Japan, and is growing in other markets too. Radiant Dawn was quite successful If I recall.
 

AetherEch0s

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If she wasn't important, why was she chosen among all the pokemons to be in smash bros?
because it used to be popular? Japan likes cute puffy things. Although nobody likes it now.

And i would consider Fire Emblem, Mother, Starfox and F-Zero to be dead series. None of them have plans for the future and havent had a release in a while.
 

Barbasol

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If she wasn't important, why was she chosen among all the pokemons to be in smash bros?
Well, Sakurai has said himself, Jigglypuff was just mostly a joke character put into Smash as a bonus, but kept because she played nicely. She's not important, she's just been there a long time.
 

Forgotten Soul

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Sakurai hadnt even considered Ridley as a character. Check about 3 pages back, i posted a piece from an interview. It hadnt even crossed his mind. Thats why i said "In my opinion" thats how the game should be. It applies at times, and at other it doesnt. Each series doesnt however need to be balanced out with all important characters in attendance.

From the roster right now
Mario needs Toad, Bowser Jr and Fawful. There are no other important characters.
Donkey Kong needs Dixie and K.Rool.
Yoshi COULD use Kamek, but she hasnt had an important role since.
Zelda series is finished. It has the 3 parts of the triforce covered. Young link/toon link are not needed.
Metroid needs Ridley. Dark Samus was in 3 games but unfortunately, probably wont return.
Starfox needs Krystal.
Pokemon needs Mewtwo, Lucario replaced with Zoroark, and possibly a revised Pokemon Trainer.
F-Zero is basically a dead series and needs no other represerentation.
Pikmin needs no other representation. Olimar has it covered.
Fire Emblem is basically a dead series. With Marth and Ike being the only reocurring Heros, and Ike only being added to hype his game, should not return. Marth is all that is needed.

My point being, If they overhaul the roster for SSB4, and i mean OVERHAUL IT. Many characters will leave and many will come. If they do it based on importance to the series. If not, the newest will most likely take the slot since it will promote their games.
I liked lucario being in brawl, I don't like the idea of playing as a 5th gen piece of crap..unless it's as a pokemon trainer.
But I like the idea of Dixie in Brawl, but I bet Dixie's up B and Final Smash will be the same as DK's...Except Dixie would use a guitar.
I just hope they don't take out Pit. I swear to GOD
 

Weyard

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All this bickering about Toad is pointless. He is significantly deserving, but he has never had a truly important role. He or should I say "they" are just a species in the in Mario series. There has never been any canon event or situation proving or even suggesting that any toad that has appeared in the vastness of the Mario series is the same Toad that appeared at a different point in it. Unlike the Yoshi and Kirby series where it is at least insinuated that some of these appearances are by the same Yoshi/kirby.
Toad is extremely recognizable amongst the Mario series and has a good chance in my opinion. If Fawful had not seemingly died in his final appearance, I would have placed him higher because he would have the potential to return in future games. 3 game appearances, being an important character in two of the three is nice, but Toad has far more appearances. Fawful has better moveset potential and has an actual personality as opposed to Toad (due to being an individual instead of a species).

Adding Fawful would be the exact same as adding Vaati. Significant villain/side villain in 2-3 games. This is an accomplishment but is it really good enough for them to be "deserving"? If Vaati appeared in another game then I would say yes. But Fawful is dead now. Unless they revive him somehow in an upcoming game, he is going to remain dead.

Generally, character in SSB need to be characters that 1: represent their series, 2:Are constantly represented in upcoming games of the series.
At this point, Toad is still appearing strongly in upcoming Mario games, while Fawful most likely will not. I then direct my focus on Toad and Bowser Jr. Both could be introduced, but does the Mario series really need that much representation? If Sakurai directs the next SSB, I would rather have Toad. But if it is handed off to someone else, I would rather have Bowser Jr. Sakurai loves clones apparently and I would never put it past him to take this easy route again in future games. I would give it a 70% chance that if Bowser Jr was to appear in SSB, he would be a slightly altered Bowser Clone (Luigified).

It is obvious however that Sakurai doesn't base his definition of "deserving" on number of appearances alone. I don't think anyone really knows how he determines which characters to add because so far it has been really random.

For a fighting game, it would be obvious to me to add the protagonist and antagonist of the series first then worry about filling in other characters. Sakurai hit them randomly throwing in supporting characters first. Based on this, I think Wolf should have been in before Falco. By all means, 3 characters if more than enough for the Star Fox series, but I would have no argument if they were to go on and add Krystal just to finish it off. The series appears to be dead, so 4 would definitely be the limit.

By "dead series" Aether means that no new Game in the series has been announced or suggested that a new game is coming. As far as I know, no new Fire Emblem, Star Fox (other than 3ds remake), F-Zero, or Earthbound games have been announced. They are Dead series for the time being.

-

It has been discussed for years that Ike's moveset should go to Ganondorf. Sakurai probably hasn't saw these discussions so I wouldn't expect it to happen, although it would be the best course of action.

-

I would prefer Black Shadow over Goroh, because he could take Ganondorf's slow CapnClone moveset perfectly.

-

I don't understand why Jigglypuff has remained for all these years. But she will likely not be removed now because she has been there for so long. Can anyone think of a character that could use that moveset? I can't. Instead of throwing away a unique moveset, she should stay.


-

@ Forgotten Soul.

Pit will obviously stay. He has a new game for 3ds. He can't be removed now.
 
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Well, Sakurai has said himself, Jigglypuff was just mostly a joke character put into Smash as a bonus, but kept because she played nicely. She's not important, she's just been there a long time.
Oh...

Well he didn't make her a joke in smash bros. melee :awesome:
 

AetherEch0s

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Why would they take Pit out? Thats stupid when he has a new game coming.....

Lucario was a 4th gen piece of crap. Everyone likes certain gens and hates certain gens. I like 5th gen. But if they do get rid of him, Zoroark is the 5th gen promotional cashcow as Lucario was for 4th gen.

Dixie could be combined with Diddy to make a pair like Ice Climbers, making her "playable" but not wasting a character selection screen slot. Which will be a major problem in SSB5 if the screen layout doesnt change xD
 

Weyard

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I would rather have Zoroark over Lucario because thus far it has followed this pattern and I greatly prefer 5th gen to 4th.

Victini is starting to replace Zoroark in most advertising though. Victini would be a unique character. I certainly wouldn't object. Victini shouldn't replace the Lucario/Zoroark slot though. I'm thinking maybe it could serve as a slot replacement for jigglypuff in the case that another character comes along that could take her niche.
 

Forgotten Soul

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Why would they take Pit out? Thats stupid when he has a new game coming.....

Lucario was a 4th gen piece of crap. Everyone likes certain gens and hates certain gens. I like 5th gen. But if they do get rid of him, Zoroark is the 5th gen promotional cashcow as Lucario was for 4th gen.

Dixie could be combined with Diddy to make a pair like Ice Climbers, making her "playable" but not wasting a character selection screen slot. Which will be a major problem in SSB5 if the screen layout doesnt change xD
Well, they could fit diddy and dixie into one character like they did with pokemon trainer and zelda/sheik, it would be really great considering I and nearly everyone else despise diddy kong's moveset now.
 

Weyard

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Taking the Zelda/Shiek route with Diddy/Dixie would probably be best. Keeping Diddy's moveset the same except changing one of his b moves into something that swaps to Dixie. Dixie could then have a unique moveset.
 

AetherEch0s

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Make down B swap to dixie lead. Then her B attacks could change to hair whip and something else.
 
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Why would they take Pit out? Thats stupid when he has a new game coming.....
I doubt they'll remove Pit. His appearance in Brawl is one of the reasons why nintendo is developing Kid Icarus Uprsing.
Dixie could be combined with Diddy to make a pair like Ice Climbers, making her "playable" but not wasting a character selection screen slot. Which will be a major problem in SSB5 if the screen layout doesnt change xD
Yeah, the character select slots will be too small just like in MvC 2.
 

AetherEch0s

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I want to talk about Layton. Other than GoldenSun, and Sin and Punishment, Professor Layton is the only new and deserving , Nintendo published franchise. He needs representation, either alone or with Luke by his side.
 

Weyard

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That would give us a new DK character without wasting a slot.
I would have like K-rool but it doesn't look like its gonna happen.

I don't understand why K-rool has been neglected in the last few DK games. He was an amazing character and would have been great in Melee. His chances are significantly lower now unless he appears in a new DK game.
 

Weyard

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I want to talk about Layton. Other than GoldenSun, and Sin and Punishment, Professor Layton is the only new and deserving , Nintendo published franchise. He needs representation, either alone or with Luke by his side.
This is another subject where I would prefer a new director. Sakurai seemingly deprived us of Nook or an Animal Crosser because he viewed it as a non-violent series. He would probably view the Layton series in the same light. Which would be a big mistake. Anyone that has played through them knows that they are far from innocent childish puzzle games. There is quite a bit of violence especially in the end-game scenes. Layton has a sword fight in one game as has a pipefight in the movie. He is more than capable of fighting and the infamous "Layton Tweet" has to stand for something. If someone saw it as important enough to make that reference, then someone must also think he is deserving.
 

Kantrip

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Well, here's my personal roster because I don't recall having added to the fun yet.

~Mario~
Mario
Luigi
Bowser
Peach
Bowser Jr.
Toad

~Pokémon~
Pokémon Trainer
Pikachu
Mewtwo
Jigglypuff
Zoroark

~Legend of Zelda~
Link
*revamped*Ganon
Zelda & Sheik
*revamped* Toon Link

~Donkey Kong~
Donkey Kong
K. Rool
*revamped*Diddy + Dixie

~Kirby~
Kirby
Dedede
Meta Knight

~Metroid~
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Ridley

~Starfox~
Fox
Wolf
Krystal

~F-Zero~
Captain Falcon

~Pikmin~
Captain Olimar

~Earthbound~
Ness

~Fire Emblem~
Marth

~Animal Crossing~
Tom Nook

~Retro Franchises~
Mr. Game & Watch
Ice Climbers
Pit
R.O.B.
Balloon Fighter / Little Mac

~Yoshi~
Yoshi

~Warioware~
Wario

EDIT: ~GoldenSun~
Isaac (yeah he deserves a slot)


~Additions (in order) as time allows~
Paper Mario
Ike
Samurai Goroh / Black Shadow
Falco
Kamek
Lucas (lol its totally not getting this far)


~Reasoning~
My philosophy for this was an order of importance: Protagonist of a series comes first. Is this series represented enough now? If yes, leave it. If no, add the main antagonist. Same question. Next is to add the main supporting character, and it follows from there. That's how I got some of the lists I did for some games. Ganon would be revamped to have a moveset like Ike's, Toon Link would get different moves and otherwise differentiate himself from Link. Diddy + Dixie: Down B would be to switch. Dixie has her hair spin as a recovery, and she keeps bananas, but as her B move (maybe only one can be pulled at once). Diddy would still work really well with comboing, speed, damage racking, and banana tricks, while Dixie would be the one to pull the bananas and have better kill potential, priority, and range. This would encourage a playstyle in which switching back and forth is actually important.

Any other questions, ask because I have a reason it's just hard to organize thoughts right now as I am tired.
 

AetherEch0s

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Needs Isaac and i would put Layton, but other than that, i would buy it.

Ill go ahead and post mine in a sec.
 

Weyard

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umm....where is your Isaac/Matthew? I don't think there is any dispute at this point. Golden Sun WILL get a representative.
 

Kantrip

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Actually, yeah I think Isaac deserves a spot. Layton I'm still iffy on.

That would put the list between at 42 characters including transformations.
just sayin'
 

Weyard

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Actually, yeah I think Isaac deserves a spot. Layton I'm still iffy on.
What specific aspect about Layton are you having some issues with?

Moveset potential?
Popularity of the series?
Whether or not he should be in a fighting game?

I'd just like to know so I can attempt to persuade you.
 

Kantrip

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Haha :)

Well I have played one of his games, but it was very recently, and before that I had never heard of the franchise. I also didn't know it was Nintendo exclusive. It struck me as a very fun puzzle game when I did play it, however.

Seeing it brought up here puts no doubt in my mind that it has a fanbase. I'm just iffy about personifying the character of Layton in such a form as the 2-d sidescrolling style with the fluid movement and fighting and whatnot. Unless there were other games or sources I'm unaware of.
 

Weyard

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Haha :)

Well I have played one of his games, but it was very recently, and before that I had never heard of the franchise. I also didn't know it was Nintendo exclusive. It struck me as a very fun puzzle game when I did play it, however.

Seeing it brought up here puts no doubt in my mind that is has a fanbase. I'm just iffy about personifying the character of Layton in just a form as the 2-d sidescrolling style with the fluid movement and fighting and whatnot. Unless there were other games or sources I'm unaware of.
The layton fanbase is huge. As expected with any new 2nd party Nintendo only franchise. It isn't just the puzzle gameplay though. The Layton games all have stories deserving of rpgs or something of that like.

Aether is preparing to post the Layton sword fighting videos right now I think. Just have a look at them if you don't mind spoilers.
 

Big-Cat

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Need I remind you people that the only real criteria there have ever been for selecting characters is that they must be someone people want to play (aka not hated) and must have something that only they can do (bring in a new playstyle).

All this stuff about promoting games, being more recent, having a lack of recent roles, etc. are all irrelevant.

I swear, I'm gonna be pulling this one out for a while often.
 

Kantrip

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Well Kuma, you can't say that with a marketing strategy as influential as sticking characters in a smash bros game that it's not going to be taken advantage of. If there is a character that needs the publicity, or a retro series that they want to revive, or an important character who people want to see fighting, it's more likely to happen than without those factors.

When it boils down to it, these franchises are still getting their name out there.
 

AetherEch0s

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Swordfighting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrUZLZnh1cM

Slot Machine Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTClYyWW09Q

Swordfightin (with a pipe lol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIaew9KyNCw

There are also scenes where he invents flying machines and such, but i couldnt find videos of them.

Watch these. That alone is enough to see his moveset potential. Im sure that Sakurai would be a fan of the series if he had played them. It seems like the kind of thing hes into. Personally, i would have Luke tag along with him. That would add more variety to his A button attacks, making them take turns attacking and such. Plus, he has never been shown in promotional art alone, Luke is always with him. I doubt Sakurai would separate them.

And he most definitely WOULD be fun to play as. Anyone who is a fan knows that he dislikes the idea of fighting, as it is ungentlemanly, but will when the time comes. His moveset would be a mix of defensive punches/kicks/blocks, some sword attacks, and the use of inventions for his Special Moves.
 

Weyard

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Need I remind you people that the only real criteria there have ever been for selecting characters is that they must be someone people want to play (aka not hated) and must have something that only they can do (bring in a new playstyle).

All this stuff about promoting games, being more recent, having a lack of recent roles, etc. are all irrelevant.

I swear, I'm gonna be pulling this one out for a while often.
All of these debates really are pointless. The only characters that get in are the ones that the director wants to get in. Sakurai took Brawl as his chance to support his own series (kirby) by throwing in two new characters at once, while series like Metroid were once again neglected. No one can predict his actions. Just because a character is deserving or popular doesn't mean it is guaranteed. All we can go on are quotes from Sakurai himself at this point. Interviews suggest that he has thought about Isaac and Ridley since the release of Brawl, but nothing else has been mentioned. We don't even know if he will be the director of the next game and many people wish that he won't be (me for example).

Tripping sealed the deal for me. What kind of idiot would put Tripping in a fighting game? It doesn't help the casual gameplay or the competitive so it was pointless. That alone makes me want a new director. Hopefully someone whose picks we can predict to some degree allowing for easier debates for future SSB games.
 

Kantrip

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Okay those videos are pretty cool. I don't know how much swordfighting I really like in the smash series, so I'd prefer that to a minimum for Layton's moves. He's pretty inventive as is and can use that coin gun, a flying machine, and whatever else have you as special moves. Using Luke for smash attacks and some others (like part of his jab combo) would be cool too as they are always a pair.

Alright, it didn't take much there. I like it.
 

AetherEch0s

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id prefer Miyamoto and Sakurai working together. Sakurai would keep it up to the standards and traditions of SSB, but Miyamoto would make sure R&D1's creations, Mario series, Zelda Series, Metroid Series, and Pikmin Series, would get the representation they deserve. The game would be more balanced in terms of representation with two people of differing points of view working on it. I think everyone can agree that Sakurai voiced favoritism with Metaknight >.>
 

Weyard

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Okay those videos are pretty cool. I don't know how much swordfighting I really like in the smash series, so I'd prefer that to a minimum for Layton's moves. He's pretty inventive as is and can use that coin gun, a flying machine, and whatever else have you as special moves. Using Luke for smash attacks and some others (like part of his jab combo) would be cool too as they are always a pair.

Alright, it didn't take much there. I like it.
If it were me, I would give him a single sword move, a block/counter type thing. Shielding their hit and knocking them away doing little to no damage. It would just be to get them away from you. The rest of his moveset would consist of inventions and such.
 

Kantrip

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I agree with your roster crimson but how about the animal crosser (Female)?
I think Tom Nook can represent the series the best of all choices. He has the most variety in move options and the most developed character concept. Animal crosser male and female are too generic and don't have a standalone personality. Resetti is always in the ground and complaining and is old and whatnot. He made a good assist trophy, and he can continue to do that job. K.K. Slider was second place for me but, besides guitar whacks his moves weren't too varied in my head. Nook just developed himself nicely.

Lololol shovel smack :)
 

AetherEch0s

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Okay those videos are pretty cool. I don't know how much swordfighting I really like in the smash series, so I'd prefer that to a minimum for Layton's moves. He's pretty inventive as is and can use that coin gun, a flying machine, and whatever else have you as special moves. Using Luke for smash attacks and some others (like part of his jab combo) would be cool too as they are always a pair.

Alright, it didn't take much there. I like it.
Thats the plan. Most of his simple A moves would be defensive restrained punches/kicks. Smash attacks would be Luke, being an arrogant child, rushing in and hitting them. I can imagine his forward smash, being like Luigi's dash attack, just random punches with his eyes closed. Luke runs forward punching like that, and does one big punch right before Layton pulls him back by the collar. Down smash, Layton could do a spin kick like Mario, and Luke jumps into the air to dodge it. I think he should only use his sword for a parry or possibly a combo-like attack as one of his Special Moves. The other Special moves should be inventions.
 

AetherEch0s

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YES NOOK

B- Bell Toss. Tosses a handfull of bells, disdainfully. Chargeable. When fully charges, tosses a bag of bells that bust open when they hit the ground, scattering damaging coins.

B-> Axe Swing. Swings the Golden Axe. Slow, with heavy damage, but little to no knockback.

B^ Fishing Rod. Swings the Golden Fishing Rod upwards, hooks into the air and reels himself upwards.

Bv Shovel. Digs a hole with the Golden Shovel. The hole lasts for as long as Snakes Motion Sensor Bomb. When someone falls in, does the same effect as Pitfall item.

Final Smash
Blow Out Sale. Leafs fall from the top of the screen and just before hitting the ground, transform into furniture, landing on the foes.
 

Kantrip

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I could take that. Pretty much a Fire Emblem-esque down B for a counterattack type deal? I like the smash attack ideas. Luke doing most of the gruntwork would be funny and effective.

Some questions: Would Luke have a hurtbox? Would it be like Nana as in you can hit him around and K.O. him but no damage to Layton? I don't think this would work as Layton without Luke would be like Olimar without Pikmin.

Perhaps Luke would be invincible and only Layton has the hurtbox? This would cause Layton's moves to have extremely detached hitboxes and he would be really powerful in the regard of move priority. Nothing would "clank" as there is nothing for the opponent to hit but Luke, who is invincible.

I like the second option, if balanced well it would bring another unique playstyle to the game. Luke would be acting almost like a detached sword of sorts.
 

Weyard

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I think Tom Nook can represent the series the best of all choices. He has the most variety in move options and the most developed character concept. Animal crosser male and female are too generic and don't have a standalone personality. Resetti is always in the ground and complaining and is old and whatnot. He made a good assist trophy, and he can continue to do that job. K.K. Slider was second place for me but, besides guitar whacks his moves weren't too varied in my head. Nook just developed himself nicely.

Lololol shovel smack :)
I would take Nook or KK. The only real difference would be that KK would use his guitar while Nook would use the various tools.

-

On another note, I don't want Isaac to be a full fledged sword user either.

All of his B moves should be psynergy. Since Sakurai has already promoted "Move" psynergy, he could keep it as his Neutral b, however the hand would need to be much smaller and have far less range for balancing reasons.

I would want his forward smash to be the Attack animation from the Golden Sun series, just leaping foward and slashing. I would personally prefer if he only had 5 or so sword moves, the rest being various Venus psynergy.

I've been thinking about a possible Gimmicky down B move for him. He could just strike with a random Djinn, and after using the move 4 times, using it again would use a summon. It would be unique.
This could free up his final smash (if they return) for Megiddo or something.
 

AetherEch0s

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Luke could count as the same hitbox. That way, he could be better overall, but his hitbox is larger for balancing reasons. Luke could jump slower, run slower, so he tags behind.
 
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