[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Kantrip]

That moveset is so close to my idea it's scary. Naturally, the rod is a tether recovery and the shovel is a meteor smash when used in the air, right?

EDIT: Hmm, Luke as an extension of Layton's hitbox? So if Luke gets smacked flying, Layton flies too? I dunno...

 

[AetherEch0s]

Yeah, obviously. Just stab the shovel down as though he were still digging, then stomp it, to meteor. The only point that would knock straight down would be the tip of it right as he stomps down on the blade.

 

[Weyard]

That moveset is so close to my idea it's scary. Naturally, the rod is a tether recovery and the shovel is a meteor smash when used in the air, right?

Ideally yes.

Generally anyone that has put real thought into movesets should have some similarities. By putting real thought into it, I mean as long as none of the 10 year olds from earlier are here praising movesetless characters lol.

 

[AetherEch0s]

Atleast everyone here isnt kissing a single charactes a$$. Usually its Shadow or Ashley(from warioware LOL)

 

[Kantrip]

Seriously, I visualize the characters actually fighting so well when I actually like them. That's why I was sold on Layton so fast; when I saw those videos and thought about it for a second, it clicked.

 

[AetherEch0s]

Iv been seeing Layton in SSB since the first in-game scene. I knew people liked the series but hadnt tried it until last year. Ever single game is so epic. I just wish they would make an action rpg spinoff already.

 

[Weyard]

Seriously, I visualize the characters actually fighting so well when I actually like them. That's why I was sold on Layton so fast; when I saw those videos and thought about it for a second, it clicked.

I do the same. I've saw Ridley as playable since Melee. Some people are just blind to all reasoning and can't see him though.

 

[AetherEch0s]

Haters gonna hate. Sakurai knows that we want him playable now (finally). He HAS to atleast try.

 

[Kantrip]

When I picture Ridley, he is downsized a fair bit. The way he runs is so boss, too. Using those claw things attached to his wings. You get that too?

Well, I'm off for the night. Some great discussions guys, hope they keep up!

 

[Weyard]

When I picture Ridley, he is downsized a fair bit. The way he runs is so boss, too. Using those claw things attached to his wings. You get that too?

Well, I'm off for the night. Some great discussions guys, hope they keep up!

The Melee Video proportions are perfect. At full extension (excluding tail) he is about the same size as Samus.

It might be a good idea to make his wings smaller, a mix between the Melee video and the Super Metroid size wings. So small that they logically couldn't provide the necessary lift, but not tiny.

 

[AetherEch0s]

Cya later, thanks for the fair discussions. I see him running on all 4s, hunched over. People complain about his size, but he NEVER stretches out. He is always hunched over, with arms tucked in, tail curled around him, wings closed, head down. He would be no larger than Charizard in this pose. And as i explained earlier, canonologically, he gets larger as he ages, therefore a young, JUST metamorphed Ridley would only be a little bit taller than Samus.

 

[Weyard]

Well the serious discussion is over now. The Toad fanboys will be back soon and all hope for sanity and reason will be over. I probably won't be back for a while. Cya and thanks for the good logical discussions.

 

[Kantrip]

Yeah, goodnight guys. I'll just leave this here.

 

[Berserker.]

Don't worry about Ridley. Sakurai will do something to make him a playable character. Nook and layton and all other nintendo franchises would be a unique addition to smash bros.

Those people who were posting about Toad weren't fanboys. They were just pointing out that he is a viable character to be in smash bros. I don't know who started the Toad discussion though but it doesn't matter since it's done ^_^'

cya guys and peace

 

[AetherEch0s]

cya, goodnight. Ill probably be here for most of the night if anyone comes back. Iv been doing other things, but now that the new console is being announced at E3, its got me back interested. It will most likely be expensive, and i for one, wont buy it unless theres a Metroid or SSB soon within its release. Announcing SSB4 or atleast teasing it at E3 will give them the hype they need. Brawl sold SOOO well even though some people hated it. Imagine if that cashcow had occured earlier in the Wiis lifetime, they would have sold twice as many at the max release price. If they are smart, they should do it this time.

Im sure it will be Summer 2012 before the new console is released, by that time SSB4 could be nearly finished, and if not a release title, could be done by Christmas. Hopefully they leave off the third party characters so they can save time and money and do it right.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Need I remind you people that the only real criteria there have ever been for selecting characters is that they must be someone people want to play (aka not hated) and must have something that only they can do (bring in a new playstyle).

All this stuff about promoting games, being more recent, having a lack of recent roles, etc. are all irrelevant.

I swear, I'm gonna be pulling this one out for a while often.

I like it when Kuma knows what's good.


@Metroid Prime 2 Guy: Did I call you cool earlier? I sure hope not.

Technically, Wario and Yoshi should both bear the Mario Mushroom symbol as far as im concerned.

Wario games are completely removed from Mario. Wario and Yoshi titles have sold over 20 million copies each. For comparison, Metroid is around 16 million.

And i would consider Fire Emblem, Mother, Starfox and F-Zero to be dead series. None of them have plans for the future and havent had a release in a while.

- Fire Emblem 12 came out last July.
- Star Fox 64 3D is coming out this July.
- F-Zero is on hiatus until further notice (Nintendo doesn't "kill" series, just ignores them).
- Mother is done by Itoi's own accord. Hey, 1 for 4.

Starfox needs Krystal.
F-Zero is basically a dead series and needs no other represerentation.
Fire Emblem is basically a dead series. With Marth and Ike being the only reocurring Heros, and Ike only being added to hype his game, should not return. Marth is all that is needed.

I like how one "dead" series needs another (fourth, questionable) character, but the other two are stuck at one each.

I want to talk about Layton. Other than GoldenSun, and Sin and Punishment, Professor Layton is the only new and deserving , Nintendo published franchise.

Shame on you for being unaware of several other good first-party series, especially Punch-Out.

Layton is owned and published by Level-5, not Nintendo (although Nintendo published the first three games outside Japan). Guess what that means?

Spoiler

go to sleep

 

[AetherEch0s]

Bear with me and this wall of text. This is to make my roster that much more epic. HYPOTHETICALLY, at E3, a video will be shown, announcing SSB4. It will show several veterans, along with Toad, Little Mac, Isaac and Layton & Luke. Imagine this intro for effect.
*Corny narrator talking about a new threat or whatever* Flash to tabuu rising up with puppet strings, as he once had attached to Master Hand. He shoots a burst of SubSpace Energy and the screen shakes. He looks upward to whoever is controlling him. Far Away, Mario is walking down a path, hitting blocks, stomping baddies. White text appears over the screen saying "Mario". When it disappears, a purple flash lights up the sky and the smash bros symbol burns itself into the sky. He stares for a second, then jumps that direction. The screen flashes to Kirby riding a warp star. It announces his name, then the sky flashes purple and he almost falls from the star. As he looks around he sees the smash bros symbol and flies toward it. Link is standing in the Lost Woods, playing the Ocarina of Time. He is introduced by the white text, then puts away his ocarina. A flash of purple light cuts through the mist of the woods and the trees above open up to reveal the smash bros symbol in the distance. He draws his sword and runs out of the woods. "Newcomers" flashes across the screen in white. A mushroom shaped home is shown with smoke billowing from the chimney. It zooms inside to show a Toad frantically running and searching the house, with a fire on the stove. A purple light flashes outside the window and he hunkers down in fear. When he rises up and looks out the window, he sees Mario running and decides to follow. It then flashes to an empty gym room. Little Mac is punching a punching bag. As he uppercuts the bag, a purple light flashes. He rushes outside to see a strange symbol in the air, and decides to head that direction. Now, the screen turns to a tall mountain. Isaac hikes up it until he reaches the top. As he stands, The Wise One flys up behind him, circles him then rests next to him as two earth djinn hop from Isaac's clothing to greet him. A purple flash of light interrupts them as Isaac and the Wise One look to see a strange symbol in the air. He nods then turns to an orange ball of light and warps that direction. Steam blows past the screen, as it pans past an open chimney pipe. It zooms into a third story window of an 19th century building. Inside, Layton and Luke are sitting by a table studying a strange box. Just as the professor presses a button and it opens, a purple light flashes from the window. Luke rushes to see what happened and calls Layton to look. In the distance there is a strange symbol. The screen pans to the streets and shows Layton's car speeding off.
*Cue Title Screen*


And now the roster. For hypothetical reasons, i have bulked
all the Mario spin-offs in the Mario Series Symbol (the mushroom)
and all the retro series in a new Series Symbol (a captial R) to simply things.


Super Mario Universe (Mushroom)
--------------------
Mario
*Secret* Luigi
Peach
Bowser
*Newcomer* *Secret* Fawful
*Newcomer* Toad
Yoshi
Wario
-------------------
Fawful, being the newest major Antagonist should be included. He has more moveset potential than any of the other popular reps (Bowser Jr, Waluigi, Daisy). The most popular of them, Bowser Jr, would most likely have a semi-cloned moveset.
Toad, has finally joined the fray. He is an important character to the Mario Series, but because of time problems, and other deserving characters, had not been included up until now.
-------------------

Donkey Kong Country Universe (D K)
---------------------
DK
Diddy & Dixie
*Newcomer* *Secret* King K.Rool
---------------------
Dixie Kong was supposed to be in Brawl but was left unfinished due to time restraints. She should be incorporated into Diddy's moveset to create a pair, similar to Ice Climbers. Diddy's moveset will remain unchanged, however pressing Down B will make Dixie take the lead. Now, Several A Button attacks have been changed, as well as some Special Attacks.
Although King K.Rool wasn't included in Donkey Kong Country Returns, he will return to the scene in SSB4. His moveset will be a combination of moves from all of the games.
----------------------

Legend of Zelda Universe (Triforce)
--------------------------
Link
Zelda(Shiek)
*Secret* Ganondorf
--------------------------
Ganondorf would work well with a variation of Ike's Greatsword based moveset. Several punching/kicking attacks should stay.
Toon Link/Young Link are very unneeded. All three incarnations of the triforce are covered, so no other representation is needed.
--------------------------

Metroid Universe (Screw Attack)
----------------
Samus(ZSS)
*Newcomer* *Secret* Ridley
----------------
Ridley should have been in Melee, as he was teased in the intro video. Brawl further neglected him, making him merely a boss. In an interview, Sakurai stated that he hadnt even tried making him a character when asked about his exclusion. However, now that Sakurai knows that he is wanted, Ridley will be made playable. His moveset will be a variation of Charizard's movset with many changes. He will only be a little bit taller than Samus and doesnt take up a huge amount of room on the screen because he stands hunched over in a compact pose.

-----------------
Kirby Universe (Warp Star)
--------------
Kirby
Metaknight
King Dedede
--------------
All of the main characters are here. Nothing to add
--------------

Pikmin Universe (Flower)
---------------
Captain Olimar
---------------
Olimar represents the series fully. Nothing to add
---------------

Star Fox Universe (Fox Logo)
-----------------
Fox McCloud
*Secret* Wolf O'Donnel
-----------------
Falco, instead of being further de-cloned, is removed. The Starfox series is dead and came to its conclusion in Starfox Command. It only needs a protagonist and antagonist. Several of Falco's moves are implemented into Fox and Wolf as needed to further differentiate them.
-----------------

F-Zero Universe (Falcon Logo)
---------------
Captain Falcon
---------------
The series is dead. Captain Falcon represents it enough anyway. Nothing to add.
---------------


Pokemon Universe (Pokeball)
----------------
Pikachu
Pokemon Trainer (Grovyle, Mudkip, Blaziken)
*Newcomer* *Secret* Zoroark (Variation of Lucario's Brawl Moveset)
*Secret* Jigglypuff
----------------
Pokemon Trainer will have his Pokemon swapped for the 3rd gen starters, since Ruby and Sapphire remakes will most likely be out by then. Lucario will be replaced with Zoroark, another popular representation of the newest generation. His moveset will have some drastic changes but remain similar.
-----------------


Mother Universe (Earth)
---------------
Lucas
*Secret* Ness
---------------
Dead series. Slight moveset changes to make them more accurate to their in-game movesets.
---------------

Fire Emblem Universe (Sword)
--------------------
*Secret* Marth
--------------------
Dead Series. Ike and Roy were added in their times to advertise their newest games. Since no new Fire Emblem is stated for release, only Marth will remain to represent the series.
--------------------

Retro Universe (R)
--------------
Pit
IceClimbers
*Newcomer* Little Mac
*Secret* Mr.Game & Watch
*Secret* Rob
--------------
Little Mac is a shoe-in. With Punch Out for Wii and being an assist trophy in Brawl, he is guaranteed. All other retro characters will stay. Pit's moveset will be slightly revised.
--------------

3rd Party Universes
-------------------
*Secret* Solid Snake
*Secret* Sonic
*Secret* RANDOM THIRD PARTY CHARACTER?
-------------------
Third Party Characters MIGHT stay. I am still debating this. If they do, Sakurai will probably get another one, but i dont know who. Possibly Megaman, or Pacman or something. Ill leave it up for discussion.
--------------------

-------------NEWCOMER SERIES--------------

Golden Sun Universe (Mt. Alph and Rising Sun above)
-------------------
*Newcomer* Isaac
-------------------
Being one of the only new series on a Nintendo system, and being an assist trophy in Brawl, Isaac is most likely guaranteed. The GoldenSun series has picked up quickly with a new release on DS and another stated for release on the 3DS.
-------------------

Sin and Punishment (Gun/Sword thing?)
------------------
*Newcomer* *Secret* Saki
------------------
Sin and Punishment has returned to the scene and with it Saki has became popular again. He was an assist trophy and is most likely guaranteed.
------------------

Professor Layton Universe (Tophat with the letter L)
-------------------------
*Newcomer* Layton & Luke
-------------------------
The Professor Layton Series, although not represented in Brawl, is one of the most notable DS game series to date. With 3 games released in america and several more on the way, it still has time to gain even more popularity. Even people who are unfamiliar with the games, have atleast seen the character to the point that he is familiar. I believe that his apprentice Luke will accompany him, because Layton has never stood alone on any piece of promotional artwork, Luke is always there and would work nicely in-game, taking turns attacking. In Brawl, an Animal Crossing Character was omitted because Sakurai believed it to not be violent series. The Professor Layton series, although a puzzle game at heart, has action cut-scenes including swordfights, use of inventions such as a Slot Machine Gun and Flying Device, and many other action oriented aspects. All in all, the story fits more-so that of an action rpg.
------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------

If this was the roster, you would have 25 characters to play with when starting the game. 4 of which, would be new characters used in promotional videos before the game's release. Many people didn't like the fact that Brawl had so many new characters from the beginning, with only a few to unlock. This way, you will get a taste of some new characters along with returning character's whos movesets will be fresh and different (pokemon trainer, diddy&dixie).

Finally, there will be a total of 41 characters in the end. 16 of which will be unlockable, and 6 of those will be new characters.

A grand total of 10 new characters, with many of the returning characters having altered movesets. That should please many of the reasonable fans. As usual, some will dislike this roster, but of all the ones i have seen, it makes the most sense. I know i was harsh by cutting certain characters, but all of them have had their useful moves recycled into other character's movesets. It is nothing more than Sakurai would have done. Fortunately, even though some characters are gone, the gameplay should not suffer. The new additions are unique enough to take up the slack. Please, discuss it thoroughly.

 

[AetherEch0s]

I like it when Kuma knows what's good.


@Metroid Prime 2 Guy: Did I call you cool earlier? I sure hope not.



Wario games are completely removed from Mario. Wario and Yoshi titles have sold over 20 million copies each. For comparison, Metroid is around 16 million.




- Fire Emblem 12 came out last July.
- Star Fox 64 3D is coming out this July.
- F-Zero is on hiatus until further notice (Nintendo doesn't "kill" series, just ignores them).
- Mother is done by Itoi's own accord. Hey, 1 for 4.




I like how one "dead" series needs another (fourth, questionable) character, but the other two are stuck at one each.




Shame on you for being unaware of several other good first-party series, especially Punch-Out.

Layton is owned and published by Level-5, not Nintendo (although Nintendo published the first three games outside Japan). Guess what that means?

Spoiler

go to sleep

I find it quite pathetic that you have to attack Metroid because you think i like it. Thanks for the laugh. Be an adult and discuss things without making immature and weak attacks.

And if you had trouble understanding, i was saying in an OVERHAULED SSB, where each series is done justice that they deserve, Krystal should be there. Although the series is no longer going anywhere, she is required to round it off. Fire Emblem has one real rep, the others were just advertisements for the newest game. Nothing more. Fire Emblem 12 is a remake. Ike's games were the last NEW ones.
And i should probably explain a dead series for you too. For me, a dead series is one with no new incarnations. Starfox 3DS is not a continuation of the series, its a remake of Starfox 64. The series ended with Star Fox Command. There are no future plans of a new game in the series, so it is dead. F-zero has nothing new planned, therefore it is dead. Mother is dead as well. Nintendo didn't "kill" them, they are dead because nothing new is on the way for them. They might make new ones eventually, but at the time being, as of when we are discussing it, they are dead. Sorry if i didn't make it clear.

I was bulking them because in essence, they are still Mario Characters. Whether they have branched off or not, they can still be considered as such for classification reasons.

Solid reading ability there son. I said NEW and deserving. Little Mac is an old character who has gotten a reboot, not a NEW character. He is also 100% guaranteed playable in a future SSB as far as im concerned. Let me repeat myself. "Aside from Isaac and Layton, im having trouble finding any "NEW" characters on a Nintendo system worth a slot." As in, characters which were created DURING or AFTER Brawl's time.

And Isaac is owned by Camelot, but appeared an assist trophy without any hitches and was not considered to be third party. They have the same ownership wording, and i assumed both were considered 2nd party. Owned by other companies, but produced by and for Nintendo. They have but to ask. There is no complicated legal work.

 

[Berserker.]

Bowser Jr, would most likely have a semi-cloned moveset.

You're saying that Masahiro would be too lazy to make a new moveset for Bowser Jr. and he would most likely make him a semi-clone of Bowser like what he did to fox and falco? If you are saying that then I agree

I'm not losing my hopes on the things I wish for in the next game but it will most likely not happen

 

[AetherEch0s]

yeah, thats what im saying. The MOST creative moveset he could give Bowser Jr. would be a mix between Squirle and Bowser's moveset with a Special Move that makes him a Mario Clone.

 

[Berserker.]

Nice prediction btw.

What's interesting in that post is the "Random 3rd party" character. I think it's gonna be megaman classic or someone that appeared in nintendo's consoles like contra - NES (Bill), Final Fantasy I, II (IV), III (VI) - SNES (Fighter lol, Cecil or Terra), Rayman - N64 or whatever. I think there won't be any third parties since Masahiro is too lazy :|

However, if this game looks promising then I'll get my hopes up.

 

[AetherEch0s]

I doubt a Contra character would make it because Sakurai didnt let Snake have guns. All Bill could use is the flamethrower and MAYBE the scatter shots. Anything else would be deemed too violent or whatever.
If a FF character makes it, i would rather it just be a Moogle (preferably Mog). That would represent the series as a whole better than any single character could. Just give it a few random magic attacks, some dances and a spear. They all do pretty much the same thing as Mog anyway xD

But i would prefer it if third parties are gone altogether. That way the game would be released that much faster. No long drawn-out legal conflicts and no begging from Kojima. But from the looks of it, they will stay. Im sure they payed big to get them included, and with that much money flowing between companies, they are all making enough money to keep it up.

 

[Sonic Poke]

You know, maybe Ridley being big isn't that bad of an idea to begin with. He'd be tough as hell to balance, especially if he's Sentinel-size, but a big Ridley would be unprecedented for Smash. I mean really, you have a highly requested character with plenty of potential to truly stand out from the rest. What's not to like?

Thank you! Cool your idea! How about a Ridley twice the size of Samus? He might be thin, leaving his weight close to that of Bowser, but only bigger! Ridley's weight could be 140 Since Bowser is 120.

that is one of the worst lists i have ever seen...

alright, now that i regained my composure,........ why are there zero pokemon from generation V in the pokeballs list? you know what? i don't want to know.
there's so many things to say... i'd rather just leave it at that.

His criticism was heavy! lol! but nevertheless be right! Look at my new list of Pokeballs:

-Chikorita
-Mew
-Celebi
-Bellossom
-Bonsly
-Eletrodo
-Entei
-Deoxys
-Gardevoir
-Goldeen
-Groudon
-Ho-Oh
-Jirachi
-Lugia
-Piplup
-Moltres
-Zapados
-Lapras
-Onix
-Snorlax
-Starmie
-Munchlax
-Togepi
-Wobbuffet
-Torterra
-Rapidash
-Taurus
-Suicune
-Weezing
-Zebstrika
-Krookodile
-Landorus
-Bouffalant

 

[Gallowglass]

I believe that if they do put Bowser Jr. in he should be a secret character. In Adventure mode you run into the Koopalings and you have to fight them one by one with each of their own abilities. Finnally you face Bowser Jr. in a clowncopter which you dismount him from and fight him normally. Once you beat him he becomes playable.

 

[Berserker.]

If a FF character makes it, i would rather it just be a Moogle (preferably Mog). That would represent the series as a whole better than any single character could. Just give it a few random magic attacks, some dances and a spear. They all do pretty much the same thing as Mog anyway xD

Mog would be a great idea. Maybe it's probably not the same moogle that appeared in the mario spin-offs but he seems to be the closest.

About Ridley, they could make his size this small.
http://static.gamesradar.com/images...nd Ridley/Finished/Melee01--article_image.jpg

 

[BirthNote]

yeah, thats what im saying. The MOST creative moveset he could give Bowser Jr. would be a mix between Squirle and Bowser's moveset with a Special Move that makes him a Mario Clone.

I wish you jumped into this thread a month earlier, because I would like your opinion of this:

Originally Posted by BirthNote
If Jr. did get in, he could get SOME of his moves from his siblings. There's a good amount of Koopaling attacks that can come from Super Mario Bros. 3 all the way up to New Super Mario Bros. Wii as well as attacks of his own. You fight Bowser Jr. plenty of times in NSMB DS, so shell-based attacks may not be an issue. Also, I was thinking that he could use HIS (not Bowser's) Koopa Clown Car as an Up Special in which he hovers for a short time.

Another idea is to have him use his paintbrush. Its unique, however I don't think Shadow Mario should be involved. In Sunshine, Bowser Jr. didn't use the brush to transform--he used a black and dark blue kerchief with a drawing of Mario's moustache. Bowser Jr. no longer wears this, but his paintbrush is still used from time to time.

So, my idea for Bowser's 8th child is for him to use his siblings' attacks as well as his own, his Clown Car, and paintbrush. However, there's a "Bowser Clone" risk. Hopefully the height/weight/size differences between Bowser and Jr. can prevent this. The clones and semiclones usually share the same height and physique of the originals. Young and Toon Link CAN contradict that statement, but you have to keep in mind that the Links are the same person, while Bowser and Jr. aren't. If that's not valid to some, keep in mind that TLink has some different moves to compensate for his shape. He never kicks.

Bearing this in mind, there are things that Jr. can't do compared to Bowser. His claws aren't good enough for slashing, so Bowser-esque "jabs" and down as well as up tilts wouldn't make sense. Also, Jr. wouldn't be able to suplex opponents either because of his size; this means that some of Bowser's throws would seem strange for his son to adopt. Can you imagine Bowser Jr. bodyslamming the foe he's grabbed? Biting isn't an option either because he's only got one fang, and it would be silly for Jr. to lunge at an enemy as a running attack because he's smaller and less menacing than his dad.

Standard attacks aren't the only thing that won't translate well from Bowser to Junior. There's 3/4 specials that aren't appropriate for this Koopa: Flamethrowing, the Suplex and Bowser Bombing. Bowser Jr. can shoot flames as of NSMB Wii, but they're only fireballs. He hasn't roared out a stream of fire yet because he's young and smaller in size--which leads me to the Bowser Bomb (DownB). Does it really make sense for this kid to throw his weight around the way his dad does? I don't doubt Jr.'s heaviness but having him do the same downB or something strangely similar to the koopa king is...strange. I wouldn't be surprised if the shell-spin (UpB) is similar though. They're turtles. Bowser's kids retreat to their shells as soon as you hit them. Every Koopa uses their shells in one or many ways so I'm expecting shell moves if Jr. ever makes it in. That being said, I think the Clown Car could be a good UpB--meaning that his shell can be used for a dash attack or something.

Now we move to Jr.'s weight. We know he's lighter than Bowser, and if you see him in spinoffs more than the main games you'll probably think he's a lightweight. BJr.'s size is inconsistent. He was near Mario's height in Sunshine but BIGGER than Peach in Galaxy. At first you'd think he's growing older, but then he's pretty small in NSMB Wii even though he was Peach's (who he carried on his shoulder) height in NSMB DS. In Galaxy 2, he's once again larger than Peach. Strange, isn't it? If he does get in Smash 4, hopefully Bowser Jr. will be near Wario's weight and close to Mario's height. Perhaps he could be the heaviest middleweight or lightest heavyweight. Who knows?

Wrapping this all up, I think Bowser Jr. has a lot of potential as a character. He can represent himself using his brush and Clown Car as well as his siblings, dad, and all the other Koopas with shell attacks and spitting fire. Anyone can see the obvious clone risks with him, but hopefully having a brush along with his shell to cover some standard and special moves (among other things) can prevent this--not to mention the height/weight/size and ability differences. Other than being my favorite Mario series character, I would like Bowser Junior playable because of the symmetry that he could bring. With him, we could have 2 heroes fighting 2 villains for 1 princess. Some people have come up with GOOD Toad ideas, but I like the symmetry that Jr. could show.

EDIT: I have no problems with Toad by the way.

 

[augustoflores]

when you say dead, ech0, it sounds kinda morbid... is it justifiable when we say a series has been revived? like reviving from the dead? like zombification!? lol i kid with the zombeez but still rather morbid of you to say fire emblem is dead.

@sonicpoke... i was looking at the list and something kept hitting me in the eye...
Electrodo... i went to check the list of pokemon and only Electrode pops up... i thought to myself... huh? then i saw where you come from, OH! brazil! that makes sense. lol.

if any character that i have ever said would not be in the next smash wind up being in the next smash, then i will bow my head in disgrace. looking at you toad, waluigi, and ridley. look forward guys!! 6 days till e3!

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I find it quite pathetic that you have to attack Metroid because you think i like it. Thanks for the laugh. Be an adult and discuss things without making immature and weak attacks.

Holy crap, you took a simple Cool Toise Nickname as an insult. I think we're about done here.

And if you had trouble understanding, i was saying in an OVERHAULED SSB, where each series is done justice that they deserve, Krystal should be there. Although the series is no longer going anywhere, she is required to round it off. Fire Emblem has one real rep, the others were just advertisements for the newest game. Nothing more. Fire Emblem 12 is a remake. Ike's games were the last NEW ones.

You have to explain what makes Falco/Wolf/Krystal so much more "deserving" than Roy/Ike/Goroh/Black Shadow AND explain why you think Ike in particular was "just an advertisement" (I already know why you and most other people incorrectly think Roy was one too, so let's skip him for now).

And i should probably explain a dead series for you too. For me, a dead series is one with no new incarnations. Starfox 3DS is not a continuation of the series, its a remake of Starfox 64.

Oh wait, your definition of "dead" strongly clashes with the rest of the world (particularly with EAD/IS), so I get the luxury of completely disregarding your concept of deserving anyhow. Guess you can skip that previous part, sorry.

I was bulking them because in essence, they are still Mario Characters. Whether they have branched off or not, they can still be considered as such for classification reasons.

Yoshi maybe (given the abundance of Mario content there), but Wario is as much a Mario series character as Donkey Kong. Stating that Diddy, Dixie, and/or K. Rool are okay but Mona and Captain Syrup aren't is either inconsistency or ignorance.

Solid reading ability there son. I said NEW and deserving. Little Mac is an old character who has gotten a reboot, not a NEW character.

Read "new" as "new to Smash." Series age is largely irrelevant.

And Isaac is owned by Camelot, but appeared an assist trophy without any hitches and was not considered to be third party. They have the same ownership wording, and i assumed both were considered 2nd party. Owned by other companies, but produced by and for Nintendo. They have but to ask. There is no complicated legal work.

Honestly can't tell if you're acknowledging that Layton is 3rd party or not with this bit.

I decided to check Sakurai's twitter for any pictures of Layton games he might own and I can't find any, so I'm getting the feeling he's not (yet) familiar with the series. On the other hand, it turns out he owns a stylish jacket.

Spoiler

alsdfkjasdklfj I missed you, quote jenga

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Aether...

The only one of the series that is actually "dead" is the MOTHER/EarthBound series. Fire Emblem's last game was released toward the end of 2008. It's a bit too early to say whether or not they are dead. Star Fox has a game coming out on the 3DS. It doesn't matter if they're remakes... they are still games being released as a part of that series. F-Zero is pretty close to being dead... but I'd say it's just on a hiatus for right now. Metroid didn't have any games throughout the Nintendo 64 era, the exact same situation with F-Zero right now.

 

[Big-Cat]

I decided to check Sakurai's twitter for any pictures of Layton games he might own and I can't find any, so I'm getting the feeling he's not (yet) familiar with the series. On the other hand, it turns out he owns a stylish jacket.

That is a stylish jacket. And Sakurai likes cats a lot.

Felicia for SSB4?

 

[Smash Addict]

Kinda random, but people keep pointing out that boser is so big in other games when they're trying to make a case for ridley. Ridley is always big though. Bowser, on the other hand, ranges in size wildly across different games. In the original SMB he was pretty small, in galaxy he was huge, and in paper Mario he's about the size he is in brawl. There's no precident for ridley being smaller. I'm not saying yea or nay, just making an observation.

 

[Big-Cat]

Ridley's size bought up again?

 

[Gardex]

Pandora's Tower and The Last Story, people.

I'm almost completely sure that at least one character from one of those games will be in the next Smash game.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

There's no precident for ridley being smaller.

This is all I'm going to add to another possible Ridley discussion. I am now retreating into my hole until this storm blows over.

 

[AetherEch0s]

im done here too. My opinion is that those series listed are dead. Theres no new content or characters coming from them. Thats my definition of a "dead" series. My opinion is obviously wrong. I mean, i disagree with you, how on earth can i be right?

I cant believe people are still arguing the same things that were discussed years ago. Ridley will most likely be in. Sakurai knows that the fans want him and will probably try to do it. Whats left to discuss? Its all the same pointless rambling that was here before Brawl came out. You'd think people would just accept the chances and move on to other things.

 

[Arcadenik]

Felicia before Mega Man, Ryu, and Morrigan (to represent DarkStalkers)? Doubtful but Meowth would be nice. He's a cat! One of the more iconic Pokemon of all time on top of that!

I can already envision his moveset...

B: Pay Day as Meowth used in the Pokemon games. Could be controlled similarly to Link's B.

Side B: Fury Swipes. Controlled similarly to Marth's Side B.

Up B: Faint Attack. Maybe it controls similarly to Pikachu's Up B.

Down B: Pay Day as Meowth used it in SSB64. Could be used as a counter.

Final Smash: Pay Day as Meowth used it in Brawl.

Meowth, Mewtwo, and Victini/Zoroark/5th gen starters for SSB4!

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Alright, the recent rush of newcomers to this thread, as well as the rising level of ignorance has lead me to quickly type up an anti-bias essay on Toad and why he is very deserving as well as likely. It also covers things like why the fact that he has had "small roles" does not matter, and why the "generic species" argument doesn't apply to him.

I only did this because I've been seeing too much Toad bashing lately. I defend him in hopes that people will see that he is actually quite deserving and his chances are quite high, not because I am a "fanboy" or because I am biased. The only character I'm biased towards is Balloon Fighter, and if I did have to pick a Mario character to be biased toward, it'd probably be Dry Bones, Dry Bowser, or Bowser Jr. I hate repeating myself over and over, and I want to get future Toad debates over with using the simple "copy-and-paste" procedure. I also can't fathom how some can possibly believe that (I might just throw-up on my keyboard while typing this) Fawful is more important to the series than Toad.

Anyway, here it is. All you need to know is below. If you don't want to read it, you don't have to. No one is forcing you.


TOAD ESSAY

Spoiler

Toad… one of the most iconic characters of the Mario series and a popular group that has been with the series since it’s beginning. Does Toad deserve a playable spot on the roster of a future Super Smash Bros. game? Of course!

First of all, I want to make this clear. I am not a Toad fanboy… I am simply defending Toad, a character that has been shot down by many throughout the years for many dumb, ignorant reasons. It bugs to to see that there are many people who believe that he literally has no chance of appearing at all, or that it is very unlikely compared to other Mario characters. I just want to clear up this misunderstanding.

NOW... why is Toad a perfectly viable (and likely) candidate for a future Super Smash Bros.?

-

First, let us discuss the history of the little Mushroom Retainer, and where he got his fame, popularity, and significance to the series.

Toad first appeared in the first ever Super Mario game Super Mario Bros. on the NES, the game that really kicked off the series toward the fame it claims today. Since this game, Toad has appeared in some way in pretty much every single one of the series' major titles since the very beginning of it's entire existence. That already is a lot more than many other characters from the series can say.

Throughout these games, Toad has taken on the role of the advice-giver, the distressed character in need of saving, and in at least two major Mario titles, Super Mario Bros. 2 for the NES and New Super Mario Bros. Wii for the Wii, he has been playable. Not to mention that he was the star of the NES/SNES puzzle game Wario's Woods. Toad's appears frequently in most of Mario's platformers, and has been especially frequent within the Super Mario Galaxy games, where the Toad Brigade joins Mario on many occasions throughout his adventures.

This doesn't even include the Mario Spin-off titles. Toad has appeared as a playable character in a big chunk of Mario spin-offs, and in a few others, he has taken the role of the game's host in one way or another. Toad is one of the "Mario Big Eight," (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Wario, Bowser, and Toad), the eight characters that have appeared in the majority of Mario spin-off titles since their beginning, and still appear quite frequently. Notice that Toad is the only character in the "Mario Big Eight" to not be represented in Smash.

Despite Toad's vast popularity, fame, and involvement with the series, many continue to argue that his "small roles" are what is bringing him down. They fail to even consider the idea that having "small roles" won't always hurt a characters chances. Toad may not have some of the biggest, most important roles in the games, but you definitely cannot say he is not important to the series. If you say this, you are ignoring the fact that he has appeared in pretty much every major Mario title and spin-off since the beginning of the series' entire existence. You are ignoring the fact that he has become an iconic character of the series and possibly even of Nintendo in general throughout his history.

It really baffles me how people can say that Fawful is more deserving because he is "more important." I also find find it funny that people who argue in favor of Fawful over Toad use the argument that he is newer and therefore more recognizable among younger fans. They seem to be neglecting the fact that Toad is well-known not only among younger fans, but of anyone who has ever played any major Mario game no matter how old they are. Sure, being newer doesn't hurt, and being the villain of three Mario games is an important role, but is that really important to the series as a whole? Is he iconic? Is he as well-known, familiar, recognizable or popular as Toad? Ask anyone even remotely familiar with Mario who Toad is, they will more than likely know. You can't do the same with Fawful. Imagine the reaction of Toad's removal from the series compared to the reaction of Fawful never returning again...

Another thing that I find strange is when people who support Bowser Jr. shoot down Toad because of his "diminishing, small roles" within the games. What about Bowser Jr.? The only major role he has ever had in any game was in Super Mario Sunshine for the GCN. Since then, he has been nothing but a mini-boss, and a character who occasionally shows up a taunts the player in games like New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Toad's role has actually grown quite a lot recently... he has had his first playable appearance in any mainstream Mario game since Super Mario Bros. 2 in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and has appeared more (plus with a more interesting role) in the Super Mario Galaxy games then in any previous 3D Mario Platformer. Honestly, how can anyone that supports Bowser Jr. bash Toad's "diminishing role?" without blatantly ignoring these facts?


So, what have we learned so far? Being iconic and significant to a series in general is more important than being important to a small fraction of the series' games. We've also learned that having a small role in any specific game(s) of the series really doesn't matter when compared to the character's overall significance to the series, as well as their popularity and familiarity among all gamers and many non-gamers alike.

-

That last section was the big one. I think I made my point quite clear. Now, on to different subject. One argument in particular that still bugs me is the "generic species" argument.

The argument that Toad is a "generic species" is incredibly ignorant. First of all, we all know this. Toad is a part of a generic species, no one is trying to hide it. The fact is that in this case, it doesn't really matter. Take Yoshi for example. Besides in the Mario Spin-off titles, was there ever just a single Yoshi? No, the player has always controlled a Yoshi. Never THE Yoshi. Yoshi always appears as a generic species, and yet he has his place on the Smash Bros. roster. Why does the idea seem so ridiculous in Toad's case? Honestly, I'd like to know. It really baffles me.

Now just for a second, let's take a look at the Mario Spin-off titles. Obviously, being a part of the "Mario Big Eight," both Yoshi and Toad have appeared in the majority of these titles. When you see Yoshi in Mario Kart, you don't think "Hey, there's a Yoshi," do you? It's always "Hey, there's Yoshi." The same goes for Toad. In the spin-offs, and in games like Super Mario Bros. 2 and Wario's Woods it always seems as if you are playing as THE Toad rather than just any random Toad. This illusion of playing as THE Yoshi or THE Toad rather than a Yoshi or a Toad is what allows them to break free of their "generic species" status when it is appropriate. Having "broken free," Toad is able to appear alone in a game like Smash without being a Toad, but rather THE Toad.

Now, I know someone will argue that, by this logic, Goomba and Koopa are appropriate choices for a future Smash. This is not true... they have appeared in the spin-off titles, but not enough to have "broken free" of generic species status yet. The fact that they appear as generic baddies in large numbers in the majority of Mario games also keeps them within that "generic species" group, unlike Toad and Yoshi.


What have we learned from this? The "generic species" argument is a worthless, ignorant argument against Toad. Don't try it.

-

One final point that I'd like to address is the argument that Toad is an unoriginal, un-unique (is that a word???) character that lacks moveset potential. I find this laughably false.

First of all, Toad is probably one of the most unique Mario characters not represented in Smash. I can't even fathom how Bowser Jr. supporters can use this argument against Toad when Bowser Jr. is basically a mini Bowser. What other major character in the Mario universe resembles Toad?

Second, let's talk about Toad's playstyle and moveset potential. Being a small character, Toad is known for being very quick, but he is also known for seeming to have superhuman strength as seen in Super Mario Bros. 2. Being a small and quick yet strong character is something not seen often, and could present a unique play-style. Now what about his moveset?

Many moves from the games he has been playable in can be looked at in determining this. Notice that in the three games where he appears as a playable protagonist (Super Mario Bros. 2, Wario's Woods, and New Super Mario Bros. Wii), the gameplay involves lifting things and throwing/dropping them. This is one obvious ability that Toad could acquire; lifting and throwing characters. The charged high-jump from Super Mario Bros. 2 is another possibility for a move, a move that would probably be utilized as an Up-B recovery move. In Wario's Woods, Toad is given bombs to throw, another possible move. He could also use the new power-ups found in New Super Mario Bros. Wii as an assortment of abilities, not to mention abilities found in Mario spin-off titles. And don't forget that there are many moves that could be designed specially for Toad without making him seem out of character. With this in mind, plus the fact that there are many different elements throughout the Mario series from which he could borrow his moves, you can't deny that Toad does indeed have moveset potential.

What have we learned here? We know that Toad is an original, unique character that could have a different sort of play-style as well as having good potential for a moveset.

-

How about a quick recap. What have we learned?
-Being iconic and significant to a series in general is more important than being important to a small fraction of the series' games. We've also learned that having a small role in any specific game(s) of the series really doesn't matter when compared to the character's overall significance to the series, as well as their popularity and familiarity among all gamers and many non-gamers alike
-The "generic species" argument is a worthless, ignorant argument against Toad. Don't try it.
-We know that Toad is an original, unique character that could have a different sort of play-style as well as having good potential for a moveset.

Any other concerns?


I think I just about covered everything. Please note, that while I did attack Bowser Jr. several times, I do not deny the great possibility of him joining the playable roster in a future Smash. I'd actually put him on or near the same level as Toad, and I wouldn't even be surprised to see both appear.

But I'm here right now to defend Toad.

Just look at everything Toad has going for him. You can't say he is unlikely, or has no chance... in fact it is quite the opposite. This is a character that is popular, familiar, and recognizable among anyone remotely familiar with Mario, as well as unique, original, and iconic of it's series and possibly even iconic of Nintendo itself. This is a character that has been a part of the series since the beginning of it's existence and is still going strong. If a character like this doesn't deserve to be in Smash, the really, I don't know who does.

ALSO, look for the bolded statements to gather the main ideas of the essay. But please, don't argue with them until you've read the whole thing.

 

[Big-Cat]

@Arc
I hope you know I wasn't actually serious. I was jokingly suggesting Felicia since Sakurai's twitter posts are mostly pictures of his cats.

 

[Zap tackle]

Great post Spydr Enzo! You really covered the complaints that almost every non Toad supporter uses. Lack of moveset and genericness is always the case. Hopefully, people would understand that Toad is indeed capable of having a chance of making it into SSB4.

 

[AetherEch0s]

Good points. I think he deserves to be included now, but only once Fawful makes it first : p I put him in my roster too, if you saw it earlier.