[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[ryuu seika]

In Twilight Princess
He could make barriers

Ganondorf used this power in an OoT cutscene to abduct Zelda.

 

[Big-Cat]

No, DLC could work for SSB4! No need to worry about if the Cafe has a hardrive or not... Just do what Capcom does... Put all of the DLC on the actual disk, and make you pay an extra fee to unlock it.

In Capcom's (and Arcsys as well), defense, part of the reason that's done is to alleviate downloading times and so that everyone can play each other while not missing data in the hard drive. Also, it turns out that the DLC is also used to make other things free or reduce the costs. Some of the DLC stuff later on in SSFIV was made free because of costume sales.

QFT. The roster can be balanced while characters are added slowly. Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Part of the problem with that is that every time a character is added, you have to rebalance everything. Look at SSFIV which added ten characters and then four more with AE. They did the balancing after adding those batches of characters in. With BBCS2, Makoto, Mu, and Valkenhayn were added to CS1 originally, but they were done in a way that did not change the balance of the others (which wasn't all that great), but they were rebalanced with Platinum the Trinity included.

IMO, these stealth patches like MK is doing should be avoided except for extreme situations like Fei's infinite on Juri and the gamebreaking glitches in MvC3. The reason I say this is because something that may seem broken might have a hard counter discovered within a month meaning there is no need to nerf it.

 

[Kantrip]

Am I one of them? I've always wanted to be a mentally challenged ten-year-old fanboy!

oh & guise, i tink dat wii nid mastr chef in da next gaem.

Stealth patches? DO NOT WANT! They should at least tell us what they're doing. I wouldn't want to try to pull off a perfect single nanner lock in tourney only to see a stealth patch that was implemeneted affected that and they roll out and punish me... hard.

I can handle the DLC and whatever they need to do for rebalancing, the competitive scene can adapt to those. But please tell us in advance when you're changing or fixing or adding something!

 

[Big-Cat]

That reminds me, Capcom had this really bad habit of doing that with the first couple of updates on MvC3, but the players did find them quickly. On the other hand, they released a list of changes they made a little while after SSFIV came out.

 

[symphoniax]

Came up with this roster recently. Includes some optional alternate costume ideas. I think it would be cool to have some newcomers introduced as alt costumes (clones) as well to save space on the roster list and still include a variety of characters in the game [e.g. Toadette and Black Shadow]

Mario/Dr. Mario
Luigi
Wario/
Bowser
Peach/Daisy
Yoshi
Bowser Jr.
Toad/Toadette

Paper Mario

Link/Toon Link/Young Link
Zelda (+Sheik)
Ganondorf
Midna
Vaati

Fox
Falco
Wolf
Krystal

Pikachu/Pichu
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo/Lucario
Pkmn Trainer [possibly b+w starters]
Victinii or Zoroark

Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede

Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong & Dixie Kong. I like the combo idea but Diddy alone is fine as well.
King K Rool

Samus (Zero Suit Samus)/Dark Samus
Ridley

Captain Falcon/Black Shadow
Samurai Goroh

Lucas/Ness

Marth/Roy
Ike
Female char – Lyn or Caeda

Pit

Captain Olimar/Louie

Ice Climbers

Game and Watch

Tom Nook

Isaac

Saki Amamiya

Little Mac

 

[Hoots]

Not a bad roster, except you left out Professor Layton. Aside from that, i completely agree, although I'd swap out Bowser Jr for Geno. I haven't played Super Mario RPG but from what I have heard and seen, Geno would make for a really unique and cool character that would fit in Smash. Plus he has a pretty big fanbase. I just don't see how people would rather have Cloud Strife. I loved FFVII but i would never want to see cloud in a smash game. I dunno the hate for Geno that people have.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

There is no way Geno will ever get in Smash over a character like Bowser Jr.... ever. People really overestimate his popularity. Even if his "immense popularity" really mattered that much, he would have been implemented into Brawl in one way or another... but he wasn't. It's not only because of issues with third party developers, especially Square Enix, but because there are so many other Mario characters and elements worth representing before a one-shot third party character who appeared in a single game over a decade ago. He isn't even iconic of the Mario series... really, don't get your hopes up on Geno.

 

[Steam]

mewtwo and lucario could never work off the same moveset... jussayin.

 

[Dynamo68]

The problem with knuckle joe is... well....

Why Knuckle Joe? Even if Kirby really deserved a character (I'd find it hard to believe that), why would a common enemy deserve to be in? I can off-hand name several characters from Kirby that deserve to be in first.

Buggzy, Bonkers, Rick the Hamster, Paint Roller, Chef Kawasaki, Marx, Pon and Con... Heck, if we're going into common enemies, what about Waddle Dee, Waddle Doo, and Sword/Blade Knight? What about Biospark? Is this all because he got an assist trophy?

Knuckle Joe has a very decent fanbase. He's the only other Kirby character besides King Dedede and Meta Knight who is loved by fans. He's gained lots of popularity, and most were disappointed by the fact he was an AT in Brawl rather than playable. That's why a lot of people have been hacking the game and making him that. So I think he'd make a cool playable character.

 

[refugee]

Knuckle Joe has a very decent fanbase. He's the only other Kirby character besides King Dedede and Meta Knight who is loved by fans. He's gained lots of popularity, and most were disappointed by the fact he was an AT in Brawl rather than playable. That's why a lot of people have been hacking the game and making him that. So I think he'd make a cool playable character.

No AT is as far as I would care to see Knuckle Joe implemented in a Smash game. Why? Because he is just a random minor enemy in the Kirby games that happens to look cool. If he is a playable character they might as well make a goomba a playable character next. Also, what the heck are you talking about he is the only other character liked by fans? I seriously doubt that's true. For example, I like Gooey.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071211231353/kirby/en/images/d/d1/Trophy239.PNG

 

[refugee]

mewtwo and lucario could never work off the same moveset... jussayin.

If Captain Falcon and Ganondorf can work with the same moveset and are from completely different series I'm pretty sure two similar pokemon can work with the same moveset as well.

 

[ryuu seika]

If he is a playable character they might as well make a goomba a playable character next.

That'd be stupid. Make it a Shy Guy.

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

I don't recall Lucario being able to use Confusion or Teleport or Mewtwo being able to use Force Palm or ExtremeSpeed. At least Falcon and Ganondorf had similar body builds in Melee for Sakurai to use as an excuse to make Ganon a clone.

 

[Starphoenix]

mewtwo and lucario could never work off the same moveset... jussayin.

Compare this: http://youtu.be/KqYpvXIZ4Cs
To this: http://youtu.be/XiVCiM-cRCs

Just saying...

 

[refugee]

That'd be stupid. Make it a Shy Guy.

Well at least a Shy Guy would be more important to it's series then Knuckle Joe is to his own. Lol. Both should just be AT at the most though.

 

[ryuu seika]

The Shy Guys have rather more significance in the Yoshi games than the Mario ones too. They're still generics though .

 

[Steam]

Compare this: http://youtu.be/KqYpvXIZ4Cs
To this: http://youtu.be/XiVCiM-cRCs

Just saying...

I'm fully aware of how both of them play.

Mewtwo= grabs with telekenisis, picks things up with telekenesis. rarely uses anything other than his tail to physically strike the opponent

Lucario= can't use telekenisis, fights with mainly martial arts.

other than the fact that they throw energy balls they are polar opposites.

 

[Hoots]

I'm fully aware of how both of them play.

Mewtwo= grabs with telekenisis, picks things up with telekenesis. rarely uses anything other than his tail to physically strike the opponent

Lucario= can't use telekenisis, fights with mainly martial arts.

other than the fact that they throw energy balls they are polar opposites.

What exactly is the issue here? Are people saying that Mewtwo will come back in SSB4 to replace Lucario? To be honest, I figured they'd keep Lucario and add Zoroark for 5 Pokemon reps. I mean, as much as I love the first gen over the others, it already has 3 reps besides Mewtwo. Why not keep Lucario who is fresher in mind from Brawl and add a cool new moveset for Zoroark?

Anyways, here is a roster I think would be cool and mostly logical:

Mario Franchise:
1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Toad
6. Geno

Pokemon Franchise:
7. Pikachu
8. Jiggly****
9. Pokemon Trainer
10. Lucario
11. Zoroark

Zelda Franchise:
12. Link
13. Zelda/Shiek
14. Ganondorf
15. Toon Link

Kirby Franchise:
16. Kirby
17. King Dedede
18. Meta Knight

Donkey Kong Franchise:
19. Donkey Kong
20. Diddy Kong
21. K. Rool

Metroid Franchise:
22. Samus/ZSS
23. Ridley

Fire Emblem Franchise:
24. Marth
25. Ike
26. Lyn (Or anyone else. I don't feel qualified to make the judgement call.)

Wario Ware Franchise:
27. Wario

Yoshi's Island Franchise:
28. Yoshi

Starfox Franchise:
29. Fox
30. Falco
31. Wolf
32. Krystal

Earthbound Franchise:
33. Ness
34. Lucas

Retro Franchises:
35. Pit
36. Mr. Game and Watch
37. Ice Climbers
38. R.O.B.
39. Little Mac

Pikmin Franchise:
40. Olimar

Animal Crossing Franchise:
41. Tom Nook

F Zero Franchise:
42. Captain Falcon
43. Samurai Goroh

Golden Sun Franchise:
44. Isaac

Professor Layton Franchise:
45. Professor Layton

Third Party Franchises:
46. Snake
47. Sonic
48. Simon Belmont

Advance Wars Franchise:
49. Andy

Sin and Punishment Franchise:
50. Saki

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

Geno is most likely not getting in due to being a 3rd party character. You also can't have both Snake and Simon considering they're both from Konami, so that wouldn't work out either.

 

[AetherEch0s]

What exactly is the issue here? Are people saying that Mewtwo will come back in SSB4 to replace Lucario? To be honest, I figured they'd keep Lucario and add Zoroark for 5 Pokemon reps. I mean, as much as I love the first gen over the others, it already has 3 reps besides Mewtwo. Why not keep Lucario who is fresher in mind from Brawl and add a cool new moveset for Zoroark?

Anyways, here is a roster I think would be cool and mostly logical:

Mario Franchise:
1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Toad
6. Geno

Pokemon Franchise:
7. Pikachu
8. Jiggly****
9. Pokemon Trainer
10. Lucario
11. Zoroark

Zelda Franchise:
12. Link
13. Zelda/Shiek
14. Ganondorf
15. Toon Link

Kirby Franchise:
16. Kirby
17. King Dedede
18. Meta Knight

Donkey Kong Franchise:
19. Donkey Kong
20. Diddy Kong
21. K. Rool

Metroid Franchise:
22. Samus/ZSS
23. Ridley

Fire Emblem Franchise:
24. Marth
25. Ike
26. Lyn (Or anyone else. I don't feel qualified to make the judgement call.)

Wario Ware Franchise:
27. Wario

Yoshi's Island Franchise:
28. Yoshi

Starfox Franchise:
29. Fox
30. Falco
31. Wolf
32. Krystal

Earthbound Franchise:
33. Ness
34. Lucas

Retro Franchises:
35. Pit
36. Mr. Game and Watch
37. Ice Climbers
38. R.O.B.
39. Little Mac

Pikmin Franchise:
40. Olimar

Animal Crossing Franchise:
41. Tom Nook

F Zero Franchise:
42. Captain Falcon
43. Samurai Goroh

Golden Sun Franchise:
44. Isaac

Professor Layton Franchise:
45. Professor Layton

Third Party Franchises:
46. Snake
47. Sonic
48. Simon Belmont

Advance Wars Franchise:
49. Andy

Sin and Punishment Franchise:
50. Saki

I would buy it. Its near perfect. The ONLY problem being Geno. Some are saying that Professor Layton is 3rd party, im not sure. I assumed he was second. If he is 3rd, then it would be a little overkill to have him, Geno and Simon. Level 5 and Konami would gladly give up their characters, but Square Enix would be difficult. Id just remove Geno. Layton and Simon are both more relevant to their own series and Nintendo in general. Layton, the most relevant, being one of the most prominent DS franchises, and Simon being the start of the Castlevania series, which other than the ds titles, hasn't appeared on a Nintendo Console in a while. If people want him Geno so bad, he can be added at a latter time through dlc when they've had time to negotiate more, but you can guarantee that his rights will be difficult to acquire.

As for having Simon and Snake, I wouldnt have a problem with it. Snake was the result of begging, so i would assume Kojima would do the same for his next best franchise. I personally think Samus and ZSS will be combined to make a fast agile Samus like in Other M. The leftover whip moveset could go to Simon to start things off.

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

You do realize that Samus has pretty much always been fast in her Power Suit right? If Samus wasn't fast in the other Smash games, she probably won't be in the next one.

 

[Deleted member]

Still think that my roster I posted awhile back is good, except for the DLC part and Lucario.

And I have to admit, people can be incredibly stupid when it comes to discussions regarding SSB4. I was one of those people early on, but I changed quickly with suggestions on how to improve my roster. Now looking back at IGN's SSB4 thread, it is just awful. Only a few people bother to make reasonable posts there and as a result, discussion regarding SSB4 has pretty much died. There was even at time when false announcement regarding DLC was made back in October, 2009, and I just *facepalmed*. Strangely enough, this was the reason why I joined it, but I stay here for a much different reason now.

Also, I'm getting a feeling that Lucario will likely be replaced in the next installment. Why? Mainly because I just figured that he originated in an anime movie. Granted, it is a Pokemon movie, but it's set in the anime Pokemon world and he did not originate in a video game. Once the developers figure that out (They probably already have), he will be removed faster then you can say "Which character from Brawl gets removed next?". Replacement will probably be a 5th gen Pokemon character.

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

Lucario appearing in a Pokemon movie first is irrelevant. If Pokemon originated as an anime, that would be a different story. Besides, by your

Spoiler

stupid

logic, Zoroark (one of the most likely 5th gen representatives) can't get in.

 

[refugee]

What exactly is the issue here? Are people saying that Mewtwo will come back in SSB4 to replace Lucario? To be honest, I figured they'd keep Lucario and add Zoroark for 5 Pokemon reps. I mean, as much as I love the first gen over the others, it already has 3 reps besides Mewtwo. Why not keep Lucario who is fresher in mind from Brawl and add a cool new moveset for Zoroark?

Anyways, here is a roster I think would be cool and mostly logical:

Mario Franchise:
1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Toad
6. Geno

Pokemon Franchise:
7. Pikachu
8. Jiggly****
9. Pokemon Trainer
10. Lucario
11. Zoroark

Zelda Franchise:
12. Link
13. Zelda/Shiek
14. Ganondorf
15. Toon Link

Kirby Franchise:
16. Kirby
17. King Dedede
18. Meta Knight

Donkey Kong Franchise:
19. Donkey Kong
20. Diddy Kong
21. K. Rool

Metroid Franchise:
22. Samus/ZSS
23. Ridley

Fire Emblem Franchise:
24. Marth
25. Ike
26. Lyn (Or anyone else. I don't feel qualified to make the judgement call.)

Wario Ware Franchise:
27. Wario

Yoshi's Island Franchise:
28. Yoshi

Starfox Franchise:
29. Fox
30. Falco
31. Wolf
32. Krystal

Earthbound Franchise:
33. Ness
34. Lucas

Retro Franchises:
35. Pit
36. Mr. Game and Watch
37. Ice Climbers
38. R.O.B.
39. Little Mac

Pikmin Franchise:
40. Olimar

Animal Crossing Franchise:
41. Tom Nook

F Zero Franchise:
42. Captain Falcon
43. Samurai Goroh

Golden Sun Franchise:
44. Isaac

Professor Layton Franchise:
45. Professor Layton

Third Party Franchises:
46. Snake
47. Sonic
48. Simon Belmont

Advance Wars Franchise:
49. Andy

Sin and Punishment Franchise:
50. Saki

This is actually a pretty good list however there are some problems. First, Konami shouldn't have two representatives since they are a 3rd party. Another company should get the chance to be represented instead like Capcom with Megaman. Second, there questionable statuses with some of the characters you listed. Geno, while a Mario character is owned by Square and therefore a 3rd party character. Layton is owned by Level 5 which is a 3rd party, so he is a 3rd party character. He just has exclusively appeared on Nintendo systems so far. Sin & Punishment I'm also not sure is 1st party. It says on the wiki page that both Nintendo R&D and Treasure were the developers of the 1st one so I'm not sure who owns the rights.

Also, Punchout should not be considered a retro franchise no more because a new game was released for the wiii just a few years ago. That's all the issues I can find. This is still a great list though!

 

[refugee]

Still think that my roster I posted awhile back is good, except for the DLC part and Lucario.

And I have to admit, people can be incredibly stupid when it comes to discussions regarding SSB4. I was one of those people early on, but I changed quickly with suggestions on how to improve my roster. Now looking back at IGN's SSB4 thread, it is just awful. Only a few people bother to make reasonable posts there and as a result, discussion regarding SSB4 has pretty much died. There was even at time when false announcement regarding DLC was made back in October, 2009, and I just *facepalmed*. Strangely enough, this was the reason why I joined it, but I stay here for a much different reason now.

Also, I'm getting a feeling that Lucario will likely be replaced in the next installment. Why? Mainly because I just figured that he originated in an anime movie. Granted, it is a Pokemon movie, but it's set in the anime Pokemon world and he did not originate in a video game. Once the developers figure that out (They probably already have), he will be removed faster then you can say "Which character from Brawl gets removed next?". Replacement will probably be a 5th gen Pokemon character.

The pokemon movie can easily just be passed off as advertisement for the game.

 

[AetherEch0s]

You do realize that Samus has pretty much always been fast in her Power Suit right? If Samus wasn't fast in the other Smash games, she probably won't be in the next one.

Except the fact that Melee Samus was based on Super Metroid, in which you were relatively slow unless dashing and jumps were floaty and slow. Brawl Samus was based on Metroid Prime, in which you "walked" through the entire game with slow floaty jumps. In Other M and Zero Mission, Samus is fast with fast jumps. Sakurai needs to fix it.

 

[BirthNote]

Aether, Weyard and Refugee, your double/triple/quadruple posting has got to stop. The pages are going by faster and its annoying when you're catching up on what you've missed in the past few hours.

Just edit your posts; if someone comments before you post and you would like to reply to that as well, simply press "Quote", copy the quoted words, press the backspace button on your screen, edit your latest post, paste the quoted comment, and type your response. Then save your edit.

Its also possible to quote the person, type your reply, copy them both, and then edit your latest comment and paste their quote(s) and your reply.

 

[AetherEch0s]

Why edit your comment when nobody will go back to reread it? During the day, when this thread is active, by the time i edit a post, there are 4-5 posts already past it and none of them will care to reread it. Thats why i just post a new one each time. During the night when its slow, i DO edit posts as you can see if you actually read over all of my posts. If you had the option to delete posts here, i would erase the old comment and include it all in a new one, but there is no such function. And nobody is triple/quadruple posting. Its doubles at the most. If i feel the need to respond fast, i will post again, as it takes 2 separate loading sessions to edit a post, and one to post a new one. With a slow internet connection anything that saves time helps.

 

[RayaGRH]

Is anyone else starting to get a bit excited? I know it's IGN but their article on it and the new console coming up...its exciting :D

I personally would love some more female characters. Lyn, Krystal, Dixie Kong, Midna, Lip, Ashley. So much potential.

 

[Shorts]

I think everyone needs to just take a chill pill. Write paragraphs of thoughts/ideas instead of a sentence and then waiting for a response. Things are moving too fast considering most of what’s being said is less than two sentences. If you want to have a convo with someone, please pm them. Otherwise take your time to write out an elaborate thought. The pages of single sentences should not occur as frequent as they were earlier. It's bloody hard to catch up on anything when there is tons of nothing being said over the span of 8 pages. It's even harder to try to start a topic (as Arcadenik tried last night). I know E3 is close, and on the inside we are all screaming ten year old fanboys, but let’s just take a deep breath and use our heads a bit before deciding to post. It makes the thread a lot more enjoyable.

You may not be new to the site, or even the thread, but I just feel like a refresher on etiquette (if you could call it that) is needed for the new faces/old but returning faces.

 

[Gallowglass]

I go back and reread posts as long as it's not 2 or 3 pages and the subject is still relevant.

I'm curious as to what is the general ranking system for people to get in. There are a lot of different views of who should be in. Is it their iconicness to the genre and Nintendo? Is it moveset potential? Or is it just popularity? Is it how balance of all the above? Or none of the above.

For me I try to balance it above. For example Little Mac. He represents a entire genre that has had a remake and was one of the first fighting games by Nintendo. Being Smash is consider a fighting to most Little Mac should be playable. Also he has some moveset potential with his star uppercut, rapid punch combo, and his charge attack as a AT. You could also take moves from other boxers and use them (Bull Charge, Don Flamengo's counter). He's also pretty popular with a classic NES/SNES games, a remake on the wii, Many independent internet vids about him (e.g. Team Awesome movie trailer). That's why he is the top character I want in Smash personally.

 

[Kantrip]

In the past, inclusion was 100% up to Sakurai and will continue to be if he happens to be working on the next smash. His personal bias or opinions outweigh all logical reasons for a character to be included. After that, everything else is looked at, but even that is from Sakurai's point of view so sometimes accurate speculation is just impossible.

I think Little Mac should have a slot also, and his moveset could be very similar to Marth's with punches instead of swordsplay.

 

[refugee]

In the past, inclusion was 100% up to Sakurai and will continue to be if he happens to be working on the next smash. His personal bias or opinions outweigh all logical reasons for a character to be included. After that, everything else is looked at, but even that is from Sakurai's point of view so sometimes accurate speculation is just impossible.

I can see this either being a bad thing or a really good thing. On one hand, because of his personal bias he won't include characters like Tom Nook despite his popularity. However, what would happen if it is someone else or Nintendo themselves that were in charge? I can see the entire Earthbound series being removed, no more series that are only from Japan making an appearance and some really dumb choices like some random enemy from a Mario game. Tripping sucks and all but I'm worried what might happen if Sakurai doesn't return. Didn't Nintendo just wanted to port Melee to the Wii with some online? Well then again, they would of probably spent more time on the online and made it actually functional. : P

Alright BirthNote, lets see if this actually works.

Well then with that criteria, I see no reason why Geno wouldn't be included. Unless there's more at play, that is.

1. Geno would not be bland and many people want him in (although I am indifferent).
2. I've never played Mario RPG and don't know much about Geno, but he's a puppet and that in itself is unique. From what I heard, he has plenty of unique potential.
3. Check.

And I don't even like him.

Because SquareEnix owns him and from what I heard, don't lend their characters out too often. If this wasn't the case he would of made it into Brawl when there was the most hype for him.

EDIT: No it doesn't so screw this.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm curious as to what is the general ranking system for people to get in. There are a lot of different views of who should be in. Is it their iconicness to the genre and Nintendo? Is it moveset potential? Or is it just popularity? Is it how balance of all the above? Or none of the above.

Sakurai mentioned his criteria not long after the last game came out. The three requirements are as follows:

1. The character must be someone people want to play. I think this means that it must be someone not hated and must not be bland in playstyle.
2. The character must have something only they can do. Pretty much means that a character must feature some kind of playstyle not previously available.
3. Must originate as a video game character and must have appeared on a Nintendo platform at some point.

 

[Kantrip]

Well then with that criteria, I see no reason why Geno wouldn't be included. Unless there's more at play, that is.

1. Geno would not be bland and many people want him in (although I am indifferent).
2. I've never played Mario RPG and don't know much about Geno, but he's a puppet and that in itself is unique. From what I heard, he has plenty of unique potential.
3. Check.

And I don't even like him.

 

[augustoflores]

you know what i dislike? more characters getting a counter move. i feel it is lazy; but then again, what more can you do?
if Lyn get's in, i wish for her not to have counter. get creative, dev team!

how many have some sort of counter/Attack stopper (besides counter shield)?
Mario, Dr. Mario, Marth, Roy, Ike, Mewtwo (barely), Lucario, Peach, Pit , Ness and Lucas (by absorption), Fox, Falco, Wolf, Zelda, and Mr. Game & Watch.

I just wanted to put more names so i put in the shield type counter reflecting/absorbing techniques.
it's actually just Lucario, Marth, Roy, Ike, and Peach. but still, counter feels repetitive when it comes to fire emblem characters. imagine Goroh get's counter just cause he's a samurai? Bushido is known for having defense as offense, right? (all you rpg guys should know...)

 

[Kantrip]

Counter as a move is different between characters who have it, though. The shields shouldn't really be included because they are different moves entirely.

Marth, Roy, and Peach got a counter in Melee.
Roy got replaced with Ike in Brawl, and Lucario was added.

That's 4. Marth and Ike have generic sword counterattack. Lucario's attacks from the other direction, making it unique in a way. Peach pulls out Toad who flings spores back at the opponent. This move should get replaced and Toad should become a playable character as far as I'm concerned, so this isn't an issue. I also think Ike should be replaced but that one's more contreversial. Lucario more than likely WILL be replaced, removing his counter from the game. This would leave us at one or two characters with a counterattack. Little Mac with one would hardly be a problem.

 

[Big-Cat]

Mario's can also be used as a projectile reflector and an edge guard (at least in Melee).
Ness' is strictly for healing purposes while Lucas has this and a *******ized version of the spacies' reflectors.
Fox and co.'s are good for pressure and gravity canceling.

Yeah, I'm not overly fond of the use for the addition of counters. At least the above all have uses outside of counters. I'd like to see if some of the counters were changed in a way similar to Bang and Makoto's counter moves.

EDIT: Lucario could easily have a teleport type counter like Bang. When Bang gets hit, you teleport a certain distance/direction relative to your opponent to set up for combos, and in Smash's cases to set up stage momentum.

 

[Kantrip]

Actually, a teleport counter would be pretty cool. If Lucario manages to stay, he should definitely get his counter changed to that.

What would Peach's B move be changed to if Toad became playable?

 

[Big-Cat]

How about a Perry command grab? Grab with Perry and inflict damage by having Perry chewing on the opponent.

Come to think of it, there are very few command grabs in Smash.