[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Big-Cat]

What do you guys think of there being boss versions of playable characters? For example in BlazBlue and Street Fighter, you fight Hazama and Seth respectively at the end of Arcade Mode, but they're blatantly broken when you compare them to their playable counterparts.

I think this would be a cool thing to see in Adventure Mode. Instead of Giga Bowser, you could fight broken Bowser. It'd be a bigger challenge since broken Bowser would not have the gigantic hurtbox of Giga Bowser so getting in would be much more risky.

 

[augustoflores]

lol broken bowser... maahn you make allot of lol worthy comments. i would like to see armored Mewtwo as a boss.

 

[Smash Addict]

Dammit Addict!! if you really don't know how to put multiple quotes in a single comment, use the simple method instead of double posting.

@Smash Addict
see this? this is an "at symbol" used to refer to the last statement of the specified recipient. use it wisely because here at OSSB4DT, double posters are looked down upon.

Spoiler

if i had to guess, I'd say your "Edit Button" is a virgin. use that edit button, it needs some electric feel.

@augustoflores

What?

 

[Shorts]

What do you guys think of there being boss versions of playable characters? For example in BlazBlue and Street Fighter, you fight Hazama and Seth respectively at the end of Arcade Mode, but they're blatantly broken when you compare them to their playable counterparts.

I think this would be a cool thing to see in Adventure Mode. Instead of Giga Bowser, you could fight broken Bowser. It'd be a bigger challenge since broken Bowser would not have the gigantic hurtbox of Giga Bowser so getting in would be much more risky.

Hate fighting that Seth. Kicks my a** so hard. Every time. I wouldn't mind seeing "Broken Bosses" at the end of adventure mode. Besides, the first time I accidently fought Giga Bowser in Melee I about peeed myself. I like the idea of having "Rival Battles" as well. Like in Soul Caliber. Anyone absolutely hate the idea of light Dialog? Like after you use an assist attack of something? Maybe right before rival battles?

Also, I would take up your offer on helping cut through the learning curve for SFIV but I sort of sold my copy. . . so I could buy a 3DS! A worthy sacrafice if you ask me. I only own SFA and one of the versions SFII now. Oh and MvC2.

Side Note: Does anyone know how big the learning curve is for SC?

 

[majora_787]

Broken Bowser? Like the Ether Bowser hack? xD haha, fun fun.

I like that idea. Why bother MAKING bosses, when you can make amazing and fun bosses that are superpowered playable characters?

And Armored Mewtwo? Yes pl0x.

 

[Big-Cat]

Most of the learning curve aspects in SFIV should apply to SFA. It's really just the fundamental controls of each fighting game. Once you've overcome stuff like canceling and special attack inputs, the execution learning curve should be minimal outside of combos. You can go from Street Fighter to BlazBlue and be able to cancel attacks with roughly the same timing. The only exception is MvC3 as it lets you cancel on the recovery of attacks whiffed or not. That being said, I can still help you, and if you want to try again, they'll be release SFIV AE on disc at the end of June.

Also, Seth's AI is exploitable. Unfortunately, I can't remember the one that applies to every character, but doing El Fuerte's Tortilla Propeller on his wakeup keeps him and everyone else in spot. I gotta say though, that when I first got SFIV in 2009, I think it took me over 15 times to finally kill Seth with Viper, who was like the first character I played.

Light dialog is nothing I can see anyone besides SmashChu having a problem with, especially if they include little shout-outs.

Unfortunately, I don't know SC's learning curve. 3D fighters in general tend to be intimidating at a competitive level for me.

And armored Mewtwo as Shin Mewtwo/Boss Mewtwo would be boss, especially if it lets you get the armor as an alt.

 

[majora_787]

Most of the learning curve aspects in SFIV should apply to SFA. It's really just the fundamental controls of each fighting game. Once you've overcome stuff like canceling and special attack inputs, the execution learning curve should be minimal outside of combos. You can go from Street Fighter to BlazBlue and be able to cancel attacks with roughly the same timing. The only exception is MvC3 as it lets you cancel on the recovery of attacks whiffed or not. That being said, I can still help you, and if you want to try again, they'll be release SFIV AE on disc at the end of June.

Also, Seth's AI is exploitable. Unfortunately, I can't remember the one that applies to every character, but doing El Fuerte's Tortilla Propeller on his wakeup keeps him and everyone else in spot. I gotta say though, that when I first got SFIV in 2009, I think it took me over 15 times to finally kill Seth with Viper, who was like the first character I played.

Light dialog is nothing I can see anyone besides SmashChu having a problem with, especially if they include little shout-outs.

Unfortunately, I don't know SC's learning curve. 3D fighters in general tend to be intimidating at a competitive level for me.

And armored Mewtwo as Shin Mewtwo/Boss Mewtwo would be boss, especially if it lets you get the armor as an alt.

Of course, but sadly Mewtwo would never be as awesome in your hands as he is as a boss. =P

 

[ryuu seika]

I play SC casually but, outside of Broken Destiny, I have never been able to use an entire character's moveset. I'm slowly improving at more conventional fighters and I've finally learnt that "command moves" require control stick/pad inputs to be released before the button inputs are performed (otherwise it only registers the current stick/pad input, not the whole string) but this is why I like Smash. Smash is not about who can do the better, flashier moves. Smash is about who can do the moves better and flashier.
In other words, conventional fighting games as a whole have the learning curve in the wrong place as far as I am concerned.

As for "god character" bosses, Giga Bowser pretty much is Bowser's "god form". Similarly, Metal Mario was the improved AI only Mario for 64 but they changed that later on. Anyway, I would suggest that we get the following versions of characters:
Pikachu -> Raichu (different recovery move, heavier, more damage)
Olimar -> Golden Olimar (heavier, all Pikmin are flower Pikmin)
Fox -> James McCloud (higher jumps, quicker moves)
Pokemon Trainer -> Pokemon Master (all pokemon are fully evolved, this would require Charizard to be replaced by Charmander normally)
Captain Falcon -> Phoenix (greater range, higher jumps, quicker moves)
Yoshi -> Black Yoshi (stronger and faster specials)
Bowser -> Rainbow Bowser (FAR heavier)

 

[Arcadenik]

I was thinking about Zoroark and how his Illusion ability could be used in Smash. Maybe Down B could just have him transform into a random Smash character? He could be like the Shang Tsung of Smash.

1st transform - transform into a random character (ex. Mario)
2nd transform - transform back to Zoroark
3rd transform - transform into another random character (ex. Link)
4th transform - transform back to Zoroark
and so on...

Zoroark as Mario wouldn't be able to use FLUDD and Zoroark as Link wouldn't be able to use bombs. Them are the breaks. Play as the whole roster within one character? What's the catch? You can't use their Down B moves and Final Smashes. What do you think?

 

[augustoflores]

mmmmmm.... how about a 30 second time limit and you can use their down Bs... if it times out in the middle of your recovery... tough luck foxy

 

[Shorts]

I was thinking about Zoroark and how his Illusion ability could be used in Smash. Maybe Down B could just have him transform into a random Smash character? He could be like the Shang Tsung of Smash.

1st transform - transform into a random character (ex. Mario)
2nd transform - transform back to Zoroark
3rd transform - transform into another random character (ex. Link)
4th transform - transform back to Zoroark
and so on...

Zoroark as Mario wouldn't be able to use FLUDD and Zoroark as Link wouldn't be able to use bombs. Them are the breaks. Play as the whole roster within one character? What's the catch? You can't use their Down B moves and Final Smashes. What do you think?

What is his playstyle without using Illusion? What are his moves? I would rather have a character who brings a totally new playstyle vs. brining a "Charade" playstyle.

 

[ryuu seika]

Ah but unlike Charade, you can switch mid combat.
Perhaps he should only change basic moves and keep his entire list of specials or something to keep some semblance of him being a single character.

 

[Big-Cat]

@ryuu
I think you meant to say Smash is more about who can use the moves properly which is only half true as others are just as strategic, if not more so.

For your boss ideas, if you're gonna make bosses the size of playable characters, you might as well make them playable.

 

[Arcadenik]

What is his playstyle without using Illusion? What are his moves? I would rather have a character who brings a totally new playstyle vs. brining a "Charade" playstyle.

Okay, this moveset is kinda based on Zoroark's movie.

B - Night Gaze
Zoroark's body is surrounded by a crimson aura. He raises his arms and slams them on the ground, releasing an energy force field that damages opponents within its range. This is a charging move. You hold down the B button to charge the aura. The longer you hold the button, the bigger the force field is. The function of this move would be similar to Ike's B move.

Side B - Dark Pulse
Simply press B while you move the control stick forward to have Zoroark shoot a projectile. Zoroark claps its paws together to fire a beam of black energy balls straight ahead. Its effect would be similar to Lucas's Side B move so it has a decent knockback.

Up B - Night Slash
Zoroark's recovery move. Zoroark's claws glow crimson and it slashes the opponent with one of the claws. I think it would be similar to Marth's Up B so you know it moves quickly and hits once. If you sweet spot this move (the glowing claw), it is more powerful with higher knockback.

Down B - Illusion
What I already explained before. Zoroark simply transforms into a random Smash character (not the locked secret characters unless you unlock them). Zoroark can do their regular moves, special moves, taunts, gliding, etc. except for their Down B moves and Final Smashes.

Final Smash - Fateful Encounter
Zoroark randomly transforms into either Raikou, Entei, and Suicune and does the same thing these Legendary Beasts did when they were Pokeball Pokemon in Melee/Brawl, only better! How? You can control these Beasts and do their thing by pressing B.

EDIT: Maybe, just MAYBE, we could restrict how random Zoroark's Illusion move by letting Zoroark randomly transform into one of three opponents present at a match? Like if Zoroark is battling, Mario, Link, and Pikachu, Zoroark can only transform into these three characters. If Zoroark is battling another Zoroark, then the Illusion move is pretty much useless just like a Kirby vs. Kirby match. I don't know... I just like the idea of Zoroark being able to transform into any character without restrictions.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Zoroark talk? Cool.
Anywho, if any of you have played the touhou fighting game series, I think zoroark would play alot like Reisen. Alot of his moves would have some trickery after image, or psyche out stuff to them. I can see him as a quick rush down character that can be hard to predict if he makes use of his illusion powers. Like say, when you initiat a move like a smash attack, you can aim it too come from diffrent angles, The first zoroark being an after image and the real zoroark comes from a different angle making his moves much more deceptive. Uhg, sorry this is a bit hard to explain, but those who have played the touhou fighting game and have seen reisen will get it. It would bring an original style to this game I assure you of that.

Also, If zoroark was able to take others forms, i'd think it would only be fair to take the opponents form. When he's hit he turns back to normal zoroark (like in the game) so he can't just play as the opponent character the whole time.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I like what Arcade suggested for Zoroark's use of his trademark illusion move. I would change a couple things, however. First of all, I'd only make it possible for Zoroark to transform for a total of 20 seconds. Then, he'd have to wait another 30-40 seconds to use the move again. I feel like this would be a good addition because, while Zoroark's trademark ability is to "transform," he is still his own character, and because of this I don't feel like it would be fair if a player could transform into any random character for an unlimited amount of time, then randomly switch when they feel like it. The illusion ability is a cool move, but there needs to be a limit to it. If you choose Zoroark, use Zoroark. If you want to pick a random character, pick the random box (assuming it will return).

Also, I would leave out special moves and final smashes for Zoroark's "transformations." A lot of characters play-styles are greatly affected by their special moves as well as standard moves. Since Zoroark is Zoroark and not Link or Mario, he should only be able to use the standard moves. If you want to get the full taste of Mario or Link, pick them on the Select Screen. Basically, these are just ways to encourage the player to actually use Zoroark if they pick him, rather than using him to use whichever random character they want, whenever they want.

Also, not every character needs a totally unique play-style. If the character has a gimmick like this, people are going to want to play as the character anyway, even if it's play-style isn't totally unique, which it probably would be a bit different anyway.

 

[Arcadenik]

Well, the reason why I felt that Zoroark should use random characters' moves is because it would be a lot of work and time-consuming for the developers/programmers to make animation frames of all these characters performing Zoroark's specials.

But I also liked your suggestion about limiting Zoroark's illusion to 20 seconds but I think we could make it 30 seconds? I think it might be a reasonable length of time for such temporary transformations.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I'm sorry if i'm being picky, but zoroark can't do that.

He can't steal powers, he simply has power over the senses to fool his opponent. So sure he can make himself to look like the opponent, but he can't do anything they can do. In the game, they even enforced this. He took the form of another pokemon, but kept his own moves. I think his gameplay should be more focused around this. Confusing the **** outta the opponent. Again, I'd like him instead to be able to do lots of afterimage attacks where he'll strike from one direction then come in from another as the previous afterimage fades. Zoroark not a copy cat, as much as he is a trickster.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Well, the reason why I felt that Zoroark should use random characters' moves is because it would be a lot of work and time-consuming for the developers/programmers to make animation frames of all these characters performing Zoroark's specials.

But I also liked your suggestion about limiting Zoroark's illusion to 20 seconds but I think we could make it 30 seconds? I think it might be a reasonable length of time for such temporary transformations.

I said he could still use their moves, just not special moves or final smashes. Basically he is restricted to standard moves. Seeing as how most standard moves involve simple things sucks as punches and kicks, it wouldn't go against the whole idea of Zoroark not actually being able to use the character's moves. The exception is for characters like Game & Watch and characters who use items, like the Ice Climbers and Swordsman (mallets and swords).

I also like the idea of Zoroark being restricted to only transforming into an opponent in the current battle. If it's an all Zoroark battle, it has the same effect of an all Kirby battle. This will also increase the confusion and "trickery", as there will be two of the same character running around.

I guess it could be raised to 30 seconds, considering all of the other restrictions I already suggested. I just don't think it'd be a good idea to allow the player to overuse this ability... because then that is what everyone would do, and then what would be the point of actually picking Zoroark or even making Zoroark in the first place?

Overall I like this idea. I was also trying to think of ways to implement his illusion ability into a Smash game.

 

[Sunnysunny]

._. It's still just an illusion though. He doesn't really transform into the opponent. Just an illusion.
I like the idea of him being able to use the opponents normals and utilize his specials while transformed, but canonly he's not capable of transforming his body into the opponent. Just illlluuuuusssiooons. '3'

 

[Shorts]

._. It's still just an illusion though. He doesn't really transform into the opponent. Just an illusion.
I like the idea of him being able to use the opponents normals and utilize his specials while transformed, but canonly he's not capable of transforming his body into the opponent. Just illlluuuuusssiooons. '3'

Not everything in smash has to be "Canon" I mean Ganondorf has never used any of his racecar driver moves in Loz before.

 

[Sunnysunny]

True, but he's capable of doing them ya know? Like ganon doing some kinda purple haze kick seems like it's possible, because ya know he's freaking ganon! He's strong, he's got magic on his side, and he's changed his form like 5 times threw out the zelda series.

And just because ganon did get C-falcons moves doesn't mean it was a good move to do. Like captain falcon I can understand why they gave him those moves. They had to improvise his character. But ganon has so much possibility and they ended up weegeefying him. ._.

Anywho, my point is zoroark's moveset doesn't need to be improvised. His ability is cool enough to base a moveset around it with out having to make stuff up.


Speaking of non-canon, wtf is up with luigi's final smash? Has that ever been explained? ._.

 

[BirthNote]

Luigi's Negative Zone trophy states that he spent too much time in Mario's shadow.

Anyway, that Smash isn't canon thing can revive a lot of old arguments. ..

 

[Shorts]

I don't consider Ganon weegeefied. I consider him crap. A big pile of really fun to play as crap. I doesn't make sense why he would have Falcon's moves in brawl. You would think that de-cloning Hyrules incarnation of evil would be a bigger priority than adding stickers?

Besides, I reallly feel like Zoroark would need to have a moveset that would be something new. I'm asking for innovative thinking. and I surely can't come up with it. He has so much potential to end up like Lucario or Mewtwo that I would rather see another character get in.

What about Peaches SUPERSTRONGALMIGHTYPOWERFULABILITY to summon Peaches? Redic. I hope to see some SPP action this time around. Although that game was slightly sexist, it was still pretty fun to play.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Stickers are the ****. Gotta collect em all man. :D
But no seriously. Ganon is a joke. Never had I played a game that had a character that had absolutely no chance of being viable. I mean, take Dan from street fighters. He was meant to be a joke, and he's more competitively viable then ganon is. And they were trying to make him bad.

Yea, i'm worried that there gonna **** up if they add zoroark and make him really lame.

like I thought lucario was gonna be fierce when I heard he was in this game. Like, what you'd expect from a fighting type. No clue why they made his fighting style "graceful" as they put it.

Also yea. I welcome SPP peach with open arms. Her movesets already pretty sexist as it is, so they can't make it worse.

 

[Fawfulcopter]

So guiz I her u liek rostrrz so I maed u wan
Super Mario Bros. Series:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Bowser Jr.

-Bowser Jr. is a major character in the franchise. Getting big roles in pretty much every main series Mario venture since his conception, and has gotten plenty of moveset potential from those appearances. Some people suggest Shadow Mario as a Zelda/Sheik-like alternate, but I think Mario Sunshine is a bit too outdated, and not many people care about ol' bluey anymore.

Mario spinoffs(Yoshi, Wario, Donkey Kong and Paper Mario):
Yoshi
Wario
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong(&Dixie?)
Paper Mario

-I think with a new game coming out, and no Mario RPG representation so far, Paper Mario deserves to be in.

-I still, however, feel that DK should get another rep, and considering PM's inclusion, I think the best possibility is the addition of Dixie as a tag-team with Diddy, in a sort of Zelda & Ice Climbers combined thing.

Legend of Zelda series:
Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
Toon Link

-Only change here is new movesets for Toon Link and Ganondork. We'll get to the subject of new movesets later.

Tingle's Ultra Epic Flowery Exciting Series of Joy:
Tingle

-Yes, Tingle is added under his own series. He is a major character, appearing in nearly as many Zelda games as Zelda herself(Counting all 4 of Tingle's own games). Deal wit' it.

Metroid series:
Samus/ZSS
Ridley

-Ridley is not too big. If Ridley is too big, Bowser is too big as of Mario 64. Ridley would be sized approximately to Metroid NES or Melee's intro.

Kid Icarus series:
Pit
Medusa

-New Kid Icarus Game + Made by Sakurai + Sakurai making SSB4 = More Kid Icarus. Palutena is not a significant enough character. But Medusa is the main villain. Palutena can stay in Pit's smash.

Punch-Out!! series:
Little Mac

-I think, with a recent game, and being a professional fighter, he can work as a character. I think an entirely Punch-centric moveset would be cool, as he doesn't have much else. I would say, as a long-range attack, to give him the Glove-on-a-rope from the Wii game.

Kirby series:
Kirby
Metaknight
King Dedede

-No change here. Maybe make Dedede not suck as much, maybe make Metaknight suck a little more. Make sure Kirby only has ONE move where he sucks: His powerless neutral B.(Bum-Bum Tsssshhh)

Pikmin series:
Olimar

Starfy series:
Starfy

-Popular series? Check. More games than Earthbound? Check.

StarFox series:
Fox
Falco
Wolf

-No change. I wouldn't say they really even deserve the 3, I think just Fox and Wolf would be better. But as long as all 3 get enough changes to differentiate them B-move wise, I think they're fine.

F-Zero series:
Captain Falcon
Samurai Goroh

-This one I'm kinda iffy on, because F-Zero is a dead series that hasn't had a game since the GBA, but I think it deserves another character, especially if it gets another game.

Pokemon series:
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer(Same as Brawl)
Zoroark
Meowth or Deoxys

-Zoroark is basically Lucario for 5th Gen. I wouldn't be surprised if Victini, Genesect or Meloetta ended up here instead, but right now I still think Zoroark. I would be rather surprised, however, if Amoonguss got in. Because that would be silly.

-Meowth is a mascot of Pokemon, and I'm honestly surprised he was out for so long. He will most likely get in if Pokemon Yellow is remade. I'd even reckon that he'll get in unless...

-Deoxys gets in, which will be under the circumstances of a R/S remake being out or in the works by SSB4, which I find likely. Deoxys has several points for him: He represents several game mechanics, such as alternate forms, event pokemon, and legendaries. He would get in under conditions of a R/S remake, so he'd have a new game coming out.

-Lucario was cut, due to being pure flavor-of-the-month. He no longer has ANY significance.

Fire Emblem series:
Marth
Ike
Caeda

-Caeda is mostly placeholder for a new FE lord. But if one doesn't happen, I expect Caeda. She uses a lance(New weapon much?), she is female, and she's a main character of two recent games, and 4 games in the series overall.

Motherbound series:
Ness
Lucas

Retro series:
Ice Climbers
ROB
Mr. Game & Watch
Muddy Mole
Laughing Dog

-Muddy Mole represents puzzle games, the Game Boy, and hey look, it's a Miyamoto brainchild.

-Laughing Dog may seem like an odd choice, but hear me out. Duck Hunt was a launch game, not only that but a bundle with the NES. For many gamers of the era, Duck Hunt/Super Mario Bros was their first game ever. He has plenty of potential for moves; consider the Zapper, flying with Ducks, Clay Pidgeons, or heck, he's a dog, right? He has claws and teeth, and clearly knows how to use 'em.

Animal Crossing series:
Villager

-Yes, I know many of you would choose Tom Nook. But the Villager has arguably more potential, as he, y'know, does stuff. He is also, what's this, THE MAIN CHARACTER. And no, Nook is not the 'antagonist'. He is the shop clerk. He doesn't do squat. Plus, I've already got one, maybe two money-centric newcomers, Tingle and Meowth.

Golden Sun series:
Isaac

-So nobody thinks he shouldn't be in, right? What's that, you in the back? You think Matthew instead? I think nope. Isaac has seniority, and is more important to the series overall.

Third Party Series:
Sonic
Snake
Megaman

-Megaman is a major game franchise, from a massive company, with close ties to nintendo.

That's 16 new characters, and 1 removed, making a total of 50, or 55 with transformations. What d'ya guys think?
I'll answer any questions. Also, I've got a big ol' copypasta about Tingle. Like how he's in more games than Ganon, and is popular in japan and whatnot.

 

[SmashChu]

I don't get why people add Sheeda (Caeda was a horrible localization name) to their rosters. She is not a lord, a unit that only fights mounted, and less popular than other nonlords from FE1/FE3. Oguma, Nabarl, and Chiki are all more popular than Sheeda is. If there is one girl from Akaneia who will be made playable (and there won't be), it will be Chiki. Chiki has a large following in Japan. I think Sheeda is perhaps the worst example of the whole "it has boobs, therefore it deserves to be in" trope. Interestingly, enough both Oguma and Nabarl got more votes to be playable characters than any of the other lords in Fire Emblem that existed at the time (the second highest voted lord in Sakurai's Melee poll was actually Celice). Also, if we are going for "non-lord" girls in Fire Emblem, look into the girl in my sig. Perhaps, one of the most tragic characters in series.

The one thing I want to point out is that I don't think Sakurai cares about popularity that much. We (and I) put too much stock into it. I think Sakurai just picks characters that he thinks are good characters that people will enjoy in the game (even after the hype). Take Geno. He is VERY popular. A lot of people really want him. But he'll likely not get aadded because he is not as strong as other characters being in only one game and never being heard from again. Not to say popularity doesn't matter. I think that Sakurai does not use it like we think he does.

I'll do Shortie a favor and repost my gameplay ideas with some edits and new stuff.

As it is right now, and in Melee, traditional combos don't really exist. Almost all of the Smash combos are predominantly juggles and are nothing like most combos in a 2D fighter. Not only that, but combos tend to consist of SHFFLing (or something like that) aerials so anyone without these would potentially run into difficulty.As such, I'm suggesting this:

1. Increase the number of attack buttons from one to three, light, medium, heavy. This lets you have a Guilty Gear/Marvel/BlazBlue combo system where you basically dial your combos in. This allows ground combos that don't involve jumping for a change.
2. Keep specials as they are, but now include three versions of specials. For example, you'll get different versions of Samus' missles with B+A, B+X and B+Y.
3. Most of the normals in previous Smash games are now moved to the different buttons. Here's a basic format:

The poblem you run into Kuma time and time again is two fold
1)You assume combos HAVE to be in this game. You do not even consider the notion of fighting games without it.
2)You ignore other genres and only compare Smash Brothers to a small subset of fighting games.

Remember that Smash is a melding of fighting games and platformers. Looking at fighting games that play totaally different and trying to cram those elements into this game will make is terrible. Why not look at games like Sonic the Hedgeho and Super Mario Brothers instead. Maybe there could techniques or attributes we can borrow from those games (like Footstool Jumping which came from Kirby Super Star). Why do we only look at traditional 2D fighting games and not platformers, or even other successful games like Wii Sports or even World of Warcraft?

The other thing is this is just bad design. Did you even ask yourself if these controls would work. Do we want 3 attack buttons? Do we need it? But also, is it "Smash Brothers." You may say "So what. It will still be Smash Brothers." Think to yourself, could you have blood and gore in Super Mario Brothers? Sure, it would still be "Super Mario Brothers" on the box and play like Mario Brothers, but it would have the felling of Mario Brothers. It would be off.

Lastly, have you considered the people playing Smash Brothers. Why do people play Smash Brothers (and play it a lot) over other fighting games like Guilty Gear or even Street Fighter? There is something that draws them to Smash Brothers. Remember that Sakurai made the game in response to how exclusive fighting games were. Yet you want to make them more so. The question is will Smash players agree with you. I think not. They like the simplified fighting because it lets them do what they want:kick *** in a multiplayer game.

I think these ideas sound great to Kuma, but the rest of the room doesn't agree. The Smash Brothers players wouldn't want three attack buttons and combos.

The biggest problems fighting games have had are these:

1. The execution barrier. How do you have the execution not as intimidating at the lower level while still providing the options need for higher level play.
2.Players cannot visibly see the strategy behind fighting game matches.

For number one, the setup I suggested gets rid of a number of problems, including the ones Smash already has. Those being short and regular jumps and how to do Smash attacks.

The second one is something that is incredibly hard to send out. IIRC, Capcom's trying to work that one out.

#2 makes no sense. This is an action game. How does seeing a strategy matter unless you are the 1% wanna be pros.

Even in Starcraft 2, a strategy game that is much bigger than any fighting game out there, it is hard to tell strategy. Take this example. Artosis was a Starcraft 1 pro who is now a caster for the GSL and is very analytical. But even with ThorZain vs MC, Artosis did not know hiss strategy. Watch this video and see what they think about Thorzain's strategy. Then look at this link and see what he was actually going.

Even in a strategy game, it's hard to tell what the strategy is. Since fighting game have very specific strategies with little variation, seeing the strategy doesn't matter.

Kid Icarus series:
Pit
Medusa

-New Kid Icarus Game + Made by Sakurai + Sakurai making SSB4 = More Kid Icarus. Palutena is not a significant enough character. But Medusa is the main villain. Palutena can stay in Pit's smash.

Uhhh, what?

 

[BirthNote]

I'm definitely of the opinion that Mario Tornado should return to down B and I'd quite like Kirby's Fireball to return with it. The problem I have with the Tornado as it stands is that the move is named after Mario but is better when used by Luigi. How does that make sense?
On the cape, what if it replaced aerial forward B entirely? Would that be a good way to give Mario more recovery options without making his offstage combat too powerful?

I was assuming that the Mario Tornado would return as a down special, but have some characteristics from the Mario Galaxy games. The tornado is generally a repelling force in those games, it reflects certain projectiles and when used in the air it gives Mario a bit of a hop, thus making it a double-jump and an offensive move.

This could work in a Smash game pretty well. Mario's new Tornado would probably have a notable knockback in which case it pushes people away, you could move while performing it, and it can give Mario a third jump while he's airborne. Since Mario has that cape, I guess they could leave the Tornado's reflecting behind, but keep the knockback.

I suppose Luigi has a chance of getting the same Tornado as well, but hopefully if they actually base Mario's Tornado off of Galaxy, they let Luigi keep the one he's been using in Brawl.

 

[mariorocks64]

The only new move I can imagine is A+B attacks. The A attack will fuse with the B attack by pressing both buttons at the same time to form a new move

Mario for example

Side tilt AB: Mario spins with his cape to attack. Attacks instead of deflect (SMW)

Luigi
AB AB AB: instead of butt bump, He'll uh... fart out green fire.... Disturbing, but it should make things less confusing.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Oh god.

So wait. If MK gets that mechanic he'll have a ****ing tornado on every move he does? .___.

 

[Big-Cat]

SmashChu, if I weren't so tired right now, I'd argue with you, but it'll probably end up like every argument where you indirectly claim to represent the masses while brining your business talk and close mindedness. Maybe I'll entertain the thought in the morning.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Hmm.... you know, I have to agree with SmashChu. The reason I haven't participated in the gameplay discussions, or even payed much attention to them, is because Smash is being compared to other fighters too much. Smash isn't every other fighter... it's Smash. It has a formula, and while Smash could use some changes, I don't think the formula should be torn down and built into something else just to make it more like "other fighter games."

Now I don't like Brawl's gameplay as much as I like Melee' for obvious reasons. The roster is unbalanced (which is unacceptable for any type of fighting game, most of the time), and it's slower, floaty gameplay just annoys the crap out of me. But that doesn't mean its time to completely revamp the formula... Fix those problems, and maybe add a couple new variables to the equation to give it a fresh, yet familiar feel.

I think we need to stop comparing Smash to other fighting games and accept it for what it is and hopefully for what it will always be... Super Smash Bros. Not Super Street Smash Fighter Bros.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'll just say this and call it a night.

The whole idea for the three buttons and whatnot come from these IGN posts.

[Different physics options] wouldn't really work to please both parties. The difference between Brawl and Melee isn't purely a change in values from the game's physics, it's a complete overhaul of the fundamental gameplay system as we know it. The main culprits are the difference in hitstun and the difference in shield mechanics. Brawl is a poor competitive game for several reasons, but the basic idea is that it does not reward first hits, but instead rewards defending against first hits. Here's a great post by Cactuar that I read recently. It explains the difference between high-level Brawl and Melee gameplay pretty well, and identifies some of the key elements that make Melee such a great competitive venue, and Brawl such a poor one. I've bolded some of these key elements in case you're too impatient to read through this all.

The Push and Pull: Everything you do to manipulate your opponent, control space on the stage, creating openings to enable you to land either individual blows or combo starters, how you react and pressure shields, etc.

The Punishment: The end result of all push and pull games. Ranging from individual hits to death combos.

In Melee, there was an incredibly competitive balance between the push and pull, and the combo game was significantly more balanced with the addition of DI and the reduction of shield stun. There were so many options regarding movement available that the push and pull became equally important as being able to properly execute the punishment.

In Brawl, we see a huge imbalance in gameplay. The push and pull game has become far more important than the punishment game, as such there is a weak overall combo system. The problem here is that, while the developers of the game made the push and pull game so much more important, they slowed down the overall game play and removed many movement options, and even inserted an unremoveable random variable (tripping) to further gimp movement. Because of this slower pace, the game becomes boring to watch, as we spend more time in the push and pull, then when we manage to initiate the punishment, there is an epic anti-climactic moment because the opponent can't be punished to an extent that would be fair for their mistake. The game is so oriented towards rewarding camping that, competitively, we will likely see projectile characters stand as far away as possible, then shoot as many things as possible until the opponent approaches, at which point they will exchange very little damage, then resume camping. Close range characters have had their options reduced, as players are punished for approaching by running (your only options from run are to dash attack, grab, or jump. Shielding from run puts you at a disadvantage due to the removal of the first frame running shield and the new lagged shield), and most characters have a disadvantage by approaching from above. Shield grabbing has been upgraded, given the very small amount of shield hitstun from any move, and at the same time ruined because of the inability to combo out of grab, aside from the few characters that now have nearly skill-less chaingrabs.

-Juggleguy

melee's push and pull was, IMO, too connected to the punishment phase. I don't normally use these terms though, and I haven't read anyone talking about something similar to what exactly my opinion is.

aaaaand it's like this:
More traditional 2d fighting games, including MvC3 and SSF, allow you to, in many cases "cancel" frames of normal attacks into special attacks. This is the main basis of the combo system.

In Smash, combos are almost all gravity based juggles. There is just about no example of really canceling anything besides stuff like Marth's side B and things called IASA frames, which are basically attacks that can be canceled by other movements, the easiest example I can think of being Marth's dtilt. Mostly though, this canceling doesn't add to the combos.
Additionally, I say that in Melee, "the spacing is the combos." This essentially means, the moves that you jump around with, SHFFL with, etc. are mostly going to be combo starters that in addition have high priority or mobility or speed or a combination, which makes them so reliable.

What does this all mean? I believe that it adds to a subpar risk/reward game. I believe that it leads to a lot of imbalance - one move like Fox's nair combined with his mobility becomes a bit too good for the game when compared to lower tiered characters who have worse mobility than Fox and no move as good as his nair.

In a trad2dfighter, you have slower moves that will lead to more damaging combos. In Smash Bros, you have super fast combo starters that are also what people use to space. In a trad2dfighter, people space with moves that have reach, and sometimes buffer a special move to cancel so that if the spacing move hits, the special attack comes out for a combo. There's a risk and reward though.


IMO, there is too much reward and too little risk in techchasing for Sheik, and in some matchups, Falco and Falcon. This is just a balancing issue on one hand just because of the small amounts of character who do have this ability, but it is also a factor of game mechanics.
[the throw is a bit too powerful in 64][Melee's throw was very imbalanced because you had things like Marth/Sheik cg/techchase and Young Link terrible throws][Brawl's throws were even more imbalanced because you didn't ever get a balanced guess game after Snake's dthrow, and stuff like DDD/IC chain grabs weren't that good for the game, and then so many other characters' throws are terrible, as was mentioned above]

What could have made Melee a better game-
First I would like to say that L canceling did not make Melee a great game - in fact I disagree with it a little because it is kind of pointless to have a universal - UNIVERSAL - technique that only punishes those who mess it up. It's like you get punished for not walking correctly. It's almost like a version of tripping when you miss a wavedash except it is the player's fault. I think this was overall a bad thing to have in the game, but a lot of Smash 64/Melee purists PROBABLY disagree.

To further describe my point, I just want to mention one aspect of what I think makes a good game mechanic -
there needs to be a sort of decision making process when applying it - should I do it or not. With L canceling it is essentially mandatory to use it every time you are not autocanceling or ledgecanceling an aerial.

There is a bit of skill involved in how you need to time it based on if you hit your opponent or not, but I just think it is kind of silly.
On the other hand, Wavedashing I think was a great mechanic, although it looked funny. Good mechanic overall. The fact that it replaces dashing/walking for some characters is sort of a bad consequence but it is nice to have, and it gets bonus points because of the fact that Smash has platforming very highly integrated into its combat.


I lost my train of thought and will post this message now

-Delbuster

http://boards.ign.com/super_smash_bros_/b5213/202337497/p1/?20

 

[xXIke-SamaXx]

Stop comparing the sacred SSB franchise to something a button mashing franchise such as MvC the way they choose their character I bet they go with random choosing at least SSB have some reserved seats for most of the character unlike MvC for every installment you pray your character will not be replaced,while in SSB the only character who were kicked; were either clones or aged pretty badly such as Mew two and I think they weren't kicked because it seems the characters were actually in the game but the making of the character was scrapped because they were over the deadline.

 

[Big-Cat]

The poblem you run into Kuma time and time again is two fold
1)You assume combos HAVE to be in this game. You do not even consider the notion of fighting games without it.
2)You ignore other genres and only compare Smash Brothers to a small subset of fighting games.

1. Name me one fighting game that doesn't have combos that isn't a Smash-knockoff.
2. Small subset? You need to look this stuff up more.

Remember that Smash is a melding of fighting games and platformers. Looking at fighting games that play totaally different and trying to cram those elements into this game will make is terrible. Why not look at games like Sonic the Hedgeho and Super Mario Brothers instead. Maybe there could techniques or attributes we can borrow from those games (like Footstool Jumping which came from Kirby Super Star). Why do we only look at traditional 2D fighting games and not platformers, or even other successful games like Wii Sports or even World of Warcraft?

Footstool Jumping came from KSS? While it wouldn't surprise me since this is Sakurai, but that kind of thing has been around since Super Mario Bros.

And why not look at other genres? There's nothing wrong with looking at other games or, in your pigeonholed view, successful games. In fact, the idea for I had for airdashing originally came from Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days, not BlazBlue, Guilty Gear, or any other fighter with it. A problem though, with trying to adapt mechanics from other games that seem appealing is that you run into the issue of whether or not the game can work with it. That being said, I admit that my ideas may not work that well when implemented, but that can be said for anyone's ideas.

The other thing is this is just bad design. Did you even ask yourself if these controls would work. Do we want 3 attack buttons? Do we need it? But also, is it "Smash Brothers." You may say "So what. It will still be Smash Brothers." Think to yourself, could you have blood and gore in Super Mario Brothers? Sure, it would still be "Super Mario Brothers" on the box and play like Mario Brothers, but it would have the felling of Mario Brothers. It would be off.

Correction: YOU think it's bad design. Knowing you, if it comes from a non-Smash fighting game, you automatically knock it off as trash. And do we want three attack buttons? To a certain extent yes. When I came up with this button system, I spread out the attacks to different buttons to eliminate the minor execution barrier some have with Smash attacks and to make it so doing combos wasn't just mashing the A button mindlessly. I think most people would rather play knowing what they're doing than not after all. The way ground game would work would be fundamentally changed, but considering that it's weak in Brawl compared to the aerial game, this might not be such a bad idea.

Lastly, have you considered the people playing Smash Brothers. Why do people play Smash Brothers (and play it a lot) over other fighting games like Guilty Gear or even Street Fighter? There is something that draws them to Smash Brothers. Remember that Sakurai made the game in response to how exclusive fighting games were. Yet you want to make them more so. The question is will Smash players agree with you. I think not. They like the simplified fighting because it lets them do what they want:kick *** in a multiplayer game.

Funny you mention that. Sakurai set out to elimiate technical barriers for players, hence the decision to narrow it to two attack buttons, but IMO, this complicates things for some people as I mentioned earlier. A single button that does everything would probably confuse people than help them.

I think these ideas sound great to Kuma, but the rest of the room doesn't agree. The Smash Brothers players wouldn't want three attack buttons and combos.

At least Shortie seems to like the idea. And before I go into the rest of your post, let me explain why we NEED combos. This was explained in that combo thread a while back by different people, but it looks like it didn't sink in.

Combos primarily exist for two reasons: To look flashy so people will be interested (Ooh! I want to do that!) and to establish the punishment game. Without combos, characters that can get in and out with no problem have the advantage (see Meta Knight). If they get hit by a stronger attacking character, they can just keep out and wait for another chance to strike while the slower, stronger character struggles. The proposed system is designed to prevent this and lets people play who they want, not who's the best (although they can overlap).

#2 makes no sense. This is an action game. How does seeing a strategy matter unless you are the 1% wanna be pros.

Easy, most people, as evidence by Smash players who refuse to play other fighting game, find fighting games to be mindless button mashing. It's not easy to understand the thought process behind players if you're new to the game. However, some characters have an easier time getting the message across that there is strategy in fighting games like Sonya in Mortal Kombat, She-Hulk and Jill in MvC3, and more because they start off with an attack that follows into several different attacks so newcomers can understand the depth of the game and the concept of mixups.

Even in a strategy game, it's hard to tell what the strategy is. Since fighting game have very specific strategies with little variation, seeing the strategy doesn't matter.

It should be difficult to tell what a player's strategy is, especially at the higher level. It should not be difficult to convey the message to newcomers that there is strategy in these games.

 

[BirthNote]

To be honest I don't like this idea either. While I did think that character dialog would be cool if it was EXTREMELY minimum and highly infrequent, this idea feels too different.

 

[ryuu seika]

I think you meant to say Smash is more about who can use the moves properly which is only half true as others are just as strategic, if not more so.

While this is perfectly true, Smash's easy control system places more focus on the strategy by removing the aspect of "who can do the better move" that puts me off more conventional fighters.

For your boss ideas, if you're gonna make bosses the size of playable characters, you might as well make them playable.

It was never my idea but this is certainly the main reason against it anyway.

The only new move I can imagine is A+B attacks. The A attack will fuse with the B attack by pressing both buttons at the same time to form a new move

A possibility.

AB AB AB

Now this is getting dangerously close to the realm of command moves. I do not approve.

@Kuma: On button #3: The idea of two buttons is more bout conceptual simplicity than actual easy of use. Moving smashes to their own button has a lot of advatages in terms of ease of play and opens up the possibility of a larger aerial moveset but you have to ask yourself, how does it affect the feel of the game? I have my suspicions that it would be seen as a big change but I'm not entirely sure. A lot of smashers already use one stick for tilts and one for smashes, why not use one stick and two buttons instead? I'm not sure where I stand on this.

On combos: The neutral A attacks are inbuilt combos. We don't need any more of those. What we do need is the ability to create our own combos from the moves we have. I would say, though, that Melee did a perfectly good job of allowing that.

On strategy: While I can agree with most of this, I have to point out that there are fighting games where button bashing is actually more effective than thinking and even in the well made ones, a little luck can make it almost as effective in the right situation. In smash you just sit there looking like a fool.

 

[BirthNote]

I've been thinking about Mario's stages lately. We know that there's many areas from the series that made it into Smash; some revolve around a specific character, a certain game, or the series in general. In Brawl, we got Delfino Plaza, Luigi's Mansion, Mushroomy Kingdom, and Mario Circuit. The interesting thing is that Mario Kart got represented by a stage--which wasn't done before. So, I was wondering: what would they do if they expanded on that? Would the developers keep that stage and focus on adding other levels from the main Mario games? Perhaps they could just make a new Mario Kart themed level, or maybe they could have a level that focused on other spinoffs. Would they move on to an RPG themed level? What about a sports stage, or one based off of the party games? I honestly don't know, but I've been speculating another idea.

What if there was a level that featured most, if not all of the spinoff series? It could behave like Delfino Plaza in the sense that you fight in one area, and then you're warped to another location from a different spinoff. They could combine the kart/sports/party themes by visiting them separately. I would mention the RPG theme with the other 3, but its more..."serious" than them and isn't mainly about fun with friends.

There's many ways for the developers to showcase Mario stages, and this idea does sound similar to my last big proposition. I'm not enthusiastic about this idea as I was with the last, and I just think its interesting. I'm fine with the possibilities for a Mario spinoff stage.

 

[Kantrip]

With that idea, I find it likely it would be turned into a WarioWare.
Stage: Mario Party. You're fighting on what looks like a Mario Party board with dice blocks spinning, and then suddenly MINIGAME! The stage becomes some sort of WarioWare-esque challenge where both Kart and Mario Sports could be incorporated. I'm not sure how I like this one.

 

[ryuu seika]

There was some mention of Mario Tornado becoming a Super Mario Galaxy move. I like this idea and think it's a great way to have both something new and something old at the same time. Don't give it to Luigi though.