[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[majora_787]

Meowth is the only character that was actually planned for a smash game but was never playable... Until the forbidden seven happened. But, you know.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Meowth is the only character that was actually planned for a smash game but was never playable... Until the forbidden seven happened. But, you know.

Actually, this is totally false. Meowth was never actually confirmed to be planned for the original Smash Bros. That's just a big fat rumor, along with rumors like Peach and Pit being planned for Smash 64, and Balloon Fighter being planned for Melee, and stuff like that.

The only characters that were actually confirmed to be planned for the original Smash are Bowser, Mewtwo, and King Dedede. Not Meowth. I have no idea how that rumor started, but from what we know, it isn't true.





@ Pokemon Rosters:

I have no doubt that Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and Pokemon Trainer (with the first generation Starter Pokemon) are here to stay. I also have no doubt that we will see a latest & greatest Pokemon in the next Smash, whether that is Victini or Zoroark (personal bets on Zoroark). I just don't think it would make sense to include a popular, familiar character from the latest iterations of ANY series, and that definitely applies (and will always apply) to the Pokemon series, considering how it is an always changing series.

So if we only get four slots, which is a possibility, I assume we'll see something like this:

-Pikachu
-Jigglypuff
-Pokemon Trainer (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard)
-Zoroark or Victini

Now if we introduce a fifth slot, it will be more random, but I REALLY doubt we'll see Meowth. I see absolutely no reason to add Meowth while cutting Lucario and not reviving Mewtwo... that just doesn't make much sense. If Lucario gets cut at all, it will be because Mewtwo is being revived. I still see this as a great possibility... sure, we'd losing a play-style, but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll have LESS play-styles. Mewtwo's would be revived in place of Lucario's.

In short, what I'm expecting to see is either:

-Pikachu
-Jigglypuff
-Pokemon Trainer (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard)
-Lucario
-Zoroark or Victini

-Pikachu
-Jigglypuff
-Pokemon Trainer (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard)
-Mewtwo
-Zoroark or Victini

I don't know why, but seeing three first generations, a latest generation, and a random fourth generation is just a bit strange to me. In all honestly, I actually would not consider it "unfair" to see something like five first generation Pokemon and a single latest generation Pokemon, with absolutely no representation for generations two, three, or four. Considering that the first generation is the most well-known and most popular, I feel like it can have as many as it wants. And I've already explained why I feel like there will always be a latest generation Pokemon.

What I think is unfair is if we had a bunch of first gens, a single latest gen, and representation from another random generation (two, three, or four). I've already explained why Generation One and the latest generation deserve representation, but if we had, say, a generation three representative, it just wouldn't seem fair to generation two and four.

 

[Arcadenik]

Yeah, what Spyder said. The part where Mewtwo, King Dedede, and Bowser being planned for SSB64 is true. The part where Pit, Peach, and Meowth being planned for SSB4 is rumored. Although I have to be a bit suspicious about this rumor because Pit and Peach did end up in Smash along with Mewtwo, King Dedede, and Bowser. So, if the rumored two ended up in Smash with the planned three, why not put in the third rumored character? Wouldn't it be amazing if SSB4 finally put in the rumored original SSB roster (original 12 plus Bowser, Mewtwo, King Dedede, Peach, Pit, AND Meowth)?

Rumored or planned, this is pretty much the reason why Balloon Fighter and Meowth are still requested for Smash every now and then. I wouldn't mind Balloon Fighter but I like the idea of Tingle as a Balloon Fighter better.

 

[Big-Cat]

I have some SmashChu-attracting ideas to present right now.

As it is right now, and in Melee, traditional combos don't really exist. Almost all of the Smash combos are predominantly juggles and are nothing like most combos in a 2D fighter. As such, I'm suggesting this:

1. Increase the number of attack buttons from one to three, light, medium, heavy. This lets you have a Guilty Gear/Marvel/BlazBlue combo system where you basically dial your combos in. This allows ground combos that don't involve jumping for a change.
2. Keep specials as they are, but now include three versions of specials. For example, you'll get different versions of Samus' missles with B+A, B+X and B+Y.
3. Jump is now just at the control stick.
4. Most of the normals in previous Smash games are now moved to the different buttons. Here's a basic format:

The control stick format is this with 5 being the neutral position
789
456
123

5A - A
6A - FTilt
2A - DTilt
5X - Utilt
6X - FSmash
2X - DSmash
5Y - New Attack
6Y - USmash
2Y - New Tripping Attack

For in the air:
j.A - NAir
j.X - Fair
j.Y - UAir
j.2Y - Dair

Again, this is to bring more of a ground game, and this under the idea the series gets a revamp. So for a quick recap on controls:

A, X, Y - Light, Medium, and Heavy attacks.
B - Specials
L - Shield
R - Final Smash

So what do you think?

Just reiterating what I had earlier since it was drowned by character discussions.
And to add some extra details:

Controls are customizable, so if you don't like the above layout, that's ok.
An example of a combo this way would be:
5A>2A>6X>6Y>Super Jump Punch
Basically, you "dial" this combo as it goes through, kind of like AAA in current Smash games.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Yeah, what Spyder said. The part where Mewtwo, King Dedede, and Bowser being planned for SSB64 is true. The part where Pit, Peach, and Meowth being planned for SSB4 is rumored. Although I have to be a bit suspicious about this rumor because Pit and Peach did end up in Smash along with Mewtwo, King Dedede, and Bowser. So, if the rumored two ended up in Smash with the planned three, why not put in the third rumored character? Wouldn't it be amazing if SSB4 finally put in the rumored original SSB roster (original 12 plus Bowser, Mewtwo, King Dedede, Peach, Pit, AND Meowth)?

Rumored or planned, this is pretty much the reason why Balloon Fighter and Meowth are still requested for Smash every now and then. I wouldn't mind Balloon Fighter but I like the idea of Tingle as a Balloon Fighter better.

Well, Peach making the cut was a given even before Melee, considering she is one of the MAIN main characters of the Super Mario series, along with Mario, Luigi, and Bowser. It is my personal belief that the rumors about Pit and his actual popularity came form the final line of his trophy description in Melee: "Will Pit ever fight again?" I remember people going nuts over that line at the original Nsider, using it as "proof" that Pit would be in a future Smash. Meowth's popularity comes mostly from the anime because his rumor is lesser known, although I'm sure it plays a part in him still being requested.

I would actually love to see both Meowth and the Balloon Fighter in Smash. Although unfortunately, I don't see why Meowth would be introduced now, especially before reviving Mewtwo AND introducing a latest generation Pokemon. Those two will come first. Out of all the great choices for retro characters, though, I feel like Balloon Fighter has one of the best chances to make it. He would bring in a unique play-style and, like you said, the fact that people believed he was planned for Melee will make them request him much more.

 

[Shorts]

I'm on the fence with your idea. I really would like to see how it works with the smash bros physics. I have a feeling it could be really overwhelming in such a free enviorment like the levels in the SSB series. What's wrong with juggling? It could be epic, or be so totally un-awesome that I leave the series behind.


Would it be as hard to master as Street Fighter. This is everyones question. Am I going to have to work my a** off like i did to learn how to use Soul Fist in any direction I please? If so, then no no no. Smash games do not and should not resemble Street fighter esque games. What I really DO like about this idea is that any preconceived ideas about who is going to naturally be high on the tier list will absolutely be decimated. This would be a mechanics overhaul, destroying any limitations a character once had. I also like ground breaking, it pairs with risky quite nicely.


Oh and, don't forget Bubbles. If we're talking retro characters.

 

[Big-Cat]

Well, this idea is under the assumption that SSB4 is revamped such that the game engine isn't so loosey goosey in its design. Nothing's wrong with juggling, it's just that it's annoying to see that combos really just consist of juggles and tech chases and they are called as such. In regards to knockback with these combos though, knockback still exists for all attacks, but not necessarily as large as Smash games in the past do it. One key thing though is that when an attack lands, the knockback takes place after a certain point in the attack. When you land a hit, you either go with the option of landing a combo to ensure an easier knockback later on, or you deal a small combo to keep them away from you.

And you had to work hard to get a Soul Fist (I think you mean Soul Spark) down. First off, I admit there is difficulty in some of the inputs at first, but that's because fighting games are the only games with those inputs so they don't overlap with anything else. That being said, they only seem hard because it's new to most people so it comes across as discouraging.

With this system I'm suggesting, specials are pretty much as they are in past Smashes, but with the light, medium, and heavy versions now existing, or you can get creative and have up to 12 different specials for a character.

And you are right that this amiguates who'd be top tier. As we've seen, with the exception of Snake, most of the top tier characters in the last three Smash games have been fast and/or have excellent aerials simply because the game design lends itself to those characters. In fact, it's hard to visualize Bowser, even with buffs, to be a contender for top tier in Melee or Brawl because he's so slow.

In summary, this proposed system is to accomplish the following:
1. Not have the moveset layout naturally favor any one character.
2. Provide a true combo system while still maintaining Smash's famous DI system so mixups and punishment are more important and pressure is easier to do.
3. Provide more options for specials.
4. Spread out the attacks so newcomers don't have to worry about struggling to do a Smash attack instead of a tilt.
5. Provide a combo system that is flashy and is relatively easy to get the hang of with a proper explanation.

 

[BirthNote]

Here's an idea: What if the Pokemon Trainer didn't have 3 pokemon from one generation? Instead, what if he/she had a lineup that combined generations 2 through 4? Pokemon representation can be brought up to speed if this happens, as opposed to a 3rd Generation in SSB5 and so on. There's many pokemon to choose from in one generation alone, therefore deciding who makes it is anyone's guess, so here are the NUMEROUS options:



2nd Generation
Chikorita

Bayleef

Meganium

Cyndaquil

Quilava

Typhlosion

Totodile

Croconaw

Feraligatr

3rd Generation
Treecko

Grovyle

Sceptile

Torchic

Combusken

Blaziken

Mudkip

Marshtomp

Swampert

4th Generation
Turtwig

Grotle

Torterra

Chimchar

Monferno

Infernape

Piplup

Prinplup

Empoleon

The pokemon are listed from phases 1 to 3. I've color-coded them to make their type (grass, fire, water) obvious, and I provided images because not everyone (myself included) knows what these pokemon look like.

So, my idea is for the Trainer to have 3 pokemon, but with one belonging to a specific generation, type and phase. The list above features the choices, and only one pokemon can be chosen from each generation, as well as type, and evolution phase. The chosen 3 can't share similarities in phase, type or generation.

While I do have an idea for who I'd pick, I'm not into pokemon like I was as a kid, so I feel that I can't choose wisely. Also, some of these candidates can't work for Smash because of some...notable concerns. Some are armless, others are FREAKING MASSIVE (guess who), and one looks like a sinister DeDeDe. Anyway, my personal choice would be to follow up on Brawl's PT range: fire would have its first phase, water would be in its second, and grass would feature its third phase. The phase layout that I've mentioned is how I would do it--if you want to come up with your own layout or follow Brawl's, go ahead.

So what do you all think? Is it best for the PT to have a strictly 2nd generation lineup, or have a roster that spans these 3 generations? With this, they could possibly get away with featuring all of Pokemon generations; Pika and Jiggs feature the first whereas the Trainer showcases 3 and the 5th generation can get represented by the pokemon that some have been rooting for a few pages back. Who would you choose for the Pokemon Trainer's fighters?

 

[ToddCam]

Only a couple of issues with that idea, which is pretty good.

Is this replacing the current trainer (Red) and his trio? Because you would be getting rid of playstyles (Squirtle and Charizard are definitely unique among the starters, and while many of them could come close to Ivysaur, it would still be kind of awkward, with its bulb being very specific) and popular characters. There would be the same fan backlash, I think.

Which trainer would be used? Ethan, Lyra, Brendan, May, Dawn, or Lucas? No matter what, you'd have two Pokémon for each trainer that are not from their generation.

Anyway, I would choose Piplup, Bayleef, and Blaziken.

 

[Arcadenik]

@ Pokemon Trainer ideas

As for the 5th gen starters, it is really hard to pick which one. Some of them have really unique designs that they would be pretty interesting, especially Serperior and Samurott. Did you know that it is possible for Samurott to stand on its hind legs so it could wield its seashell swords? Also, Serperior would be pretty sweet. Sure, the lack of limbs would prevent it from getting in but then you remember that it got vines that could substitute as arms to be used for punching and grabbing (kinda like Ivysaur).

I just had an idea for the Final Smash for the 5th gen Pokemon Trainer. Maybe the trainer unleashes Victini instead of doing their version of Triple Finish. Victini would use Searing Shot and/or V-create and then it is called back into the ball.

Sure, replacing Red and his 1st gen starters would be losing their playstyles but you would also be gaining new playstyles. Think of it as an opportunity to learn new playstyles instead of lamenting about loss.

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I really do love playing as the 1st gen starters. They are some of my favorite Smashers in Brawl along with Jigglypuff (believe it or not) and several others but I wouldn't mind swapping them out with new characters. I just thought it would be nice to be able to play as different Pokemon instead of playing as the same old ones over and over. I am pretty sure they would bring in some new playstyles. If I wanted the old playstyles, I can just go back to Melee and Brawl (that's why I will never give away my Melee and Brawl copies, just in case )

 

[Sonic Poke]

well, so I would like the team of pokemon ssb4:

Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, never change this team)
Lucario
Mewtwo
Meowth
Pokemon Trainer 2 (Piplup, Bayleef, Blaziken, representing a majority of the generations, as told ToddCam)
Team Rocket (Arbok, Victreebel, Lickitung, Weezing not, but appears at the final smash, the quadruple finish)
Zoroark

 

[Shorts]

Regaurding the PT from gen 2 - 4 I'm not a fan of this idea, particularly because I only know of Ash Ketchum to ever own all/most of these Pokemon. No Pokemon Trainer has ever had the chance to own all these Pokemon (Without Trading). We can't use Ethan(Lyra makes me sick), May(Better then Brandon), or Dawn(Better then Lucas). BUT, I'll put my two cents in. I figure thes pokemon:

Grovyle: Actually had a big part in Mystery Dungeon.
Feraligatr: I want to switch up the whole fire being final evo, and I know he's pretty popular. He beat out typhlosion/meganium on my poll for the 2nd gen PT, not that this is anything concrete, just my personal experience.
Chimchar: Kind of got the short end of the stick. But I know generally speaking most people love the fire Pokemon. (Me not so much Minus the Charizard evo chain)

@Kuma, I could see this working out well, so long as it is easy to get a hanf of. But would the combos really work in the setting? I feel like if the games combo system got too similar to games like SF, or MVC I feel like you could do such massive combos that by the time you finish it your opponent will go blasting off the side of the screen. Would the combo system of the game still keep Smash integrity in tact? I feel like going too overboard would almost change the goal of the game from: "Knocking your opponents of the edge of the level" to: "Comboing to an insta kill"

Do you see where I'm coming from? I feel like if this was executed a certain way you would lose the whole SSB feel.

Now I'm off to write a four page analysis of "The Wasteland" under the lens of The Bible. Oh yay.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I would choose Piplup, Bayleef, and Blaziken out of those choices. Following your guidelines and from what you presented, these seem like the most logical choices.

Honestly, though, as much as I feel like something like this should happen to represent all generations, I just don't see Squirtle, Ivysaur, or Charizard being cut. Not even for three second generation starters (because of the latest remake) like Totodile, Bayleef, and Typhlosion. Ever since the Pokemon Trainer was confirmed with Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard, I've always wanted to play as the generation three starters: Mudkip, Grovyle, and Blaziken. Those are my favorite, besides the first generation of course.

In fact, generation three has the LEAST chance of getting any representation, considering it has yet to be remade. Second generation has a slight chance, because of HeartGold and SoulSilver, and generation four has the best chance if Lucario isn't cut.

 

[Shorts]

I would choose

Piplup, Bayleef, and Blaziken
Totodile, Bayleef, and Typhlosion.
Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard.
Mudkip, Grovyle, and Blaziken. .

WHY must is go Water, Grass Fire!? Why does everyone assume this? Feraligatr and Empoleon are just as deserving as Typhlosion and that stupid fire monkey.

 

[Big-Cat]

@Kuma, I could see this working out well, so long as it is easy to get a hanf of. But would the combos really work in the setting? I feel like if the games combo system got too similar to games like SF, or MVC I feel like you could do such massive combos that by the time you finish it your opponent will go blasting off the side of the screen. Would the combo system of the game still keep Smash integrity in tact? I feel like going too overboard would almost change the goal of the game from: "Knocking your opponents of the edge of the level" to: "Comboing to an insta kill"

Do you see where I'm coming from? I feel like if this was executed a certain way you would lose the whole SSB feel.

The way the combo system works is that there is that there are at least four different combos:

1. Combos for damage, but have low knockback.
2. Combos for building meter (assuming damage scaling is in and so is a super meter).
3. Combos that deal small damage, but end in resets for mixups.
4. Combos that are made so you can safely land your knockback heavy moves.

As you can see, we have a different kind of combo unlike what you typically see in traditional fighters. Massive combos like those you mentioned really fall under the first two.

I do understand the concern about Smash losing its identity with this system, but I don't think it's that much to worry about. Instead of SHFFLing with Fox's NAir constantly, you have a ground combo that lets you deal the same amount of damage with less technical skill involved. Of course, the applications of the two would probably be different if you asked the big Melee people.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

WHY must is go Water, Grass Fire!? Why does everyone assume this? Feraligatr and Empoleon are just as deserving as Typhlosion and that stupid fire monkey.

That's just personal preference. I don't actually think we'll see anything like what Birthnote suggested, so I was just playing along with my own choices.

I am one who likes order and organization, so in my own eyes, anything OTHER then water, grass, then fire is just strange. I realize that, if we do happen to see a a new starter trio from a new generation, it doesn't necessarily need to be in that order.

 

[BirthNote]

Only a couple of issues with that idea, which is pretty good.

Is this replacing the current trainer (Red) and his trio? Because you would be getting rid of playstyles (Squirtle and Charizard are definitely unique among the starters, and while many of them could come close to Ivysaur, it would still be kind of awkward, with its bulb being very specific) and popular characters. There would be the same fan backlash, I think.

Which trainer would be used? Ethan, Lyra, Brendan, May, Dawn, or Lucas? No matter what, you'd have two Pokémon for each trainer that are not from their generation.

Anyway, I would choose Piplup, Bayleef, and Blaziken.

Good points about the concerns. Unfortunately, my intent is to replace Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard. The idea follows the Pokemon games' new starter layout, but also mixes things up. The pokemon series always introduces new starter options, and although as a fan of Smash I hardly want any characters cut, keeping a 1st generation PT lineup when new generations appear seems unfair. Fans will miss Red's roster, but like Arcadenik said, we're getting new playstyles, and you can play the previous SSB games. The things that don't cross from one game to its sequel make the previous installment unique, and helps keeping the entries from feeling too similar. Plus, Pikachu and Jigglypuff are guaranteed to stay.

Now, about the Trainer, you and Shortiecanbrawl brought up another good point. Because the actual trainers would have 2 unfamiliar pokemon in their roster, and only Ash has owned almost all pokemon, here's my solution: A new Trainer could be created. He/She could be a SSB only character made to solve these problems.

@ Pokemon Trainer ideas

As for the 5th gen starters, it is really hard to pick which one. Some of them have really unique designs that they would be pretty interesting, especially Serperior and Samurott. Did you know that it is possible for Samurott to stand on its hind legs so it could wield its seashell swords? Also, Serperior would be pretty sweet. Sure, the lack of limbs would prevent it from getting in but then you remember that it got vines that could substitute as arms to be used for punching and grabbing (kinda like Ivysaur).

I just had an idea for the Final Smash for the 5th gen Pokemon Trainer. Maybe the trainer unleashes Victini instead of doing their version of Triple Finish. Victini would use Searing Shot and/or V-create and then it is called back into the ball.

Sure, replacing Red and his 1st gen starters would be losing their playstyles but you would also be gaining new playstyles. Think of it as an opportunity to learn new playstyles instead of lamenting about loss.

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I really do love playing as the 1st gen starters. They are some of my favorite Smashers in Brawl along with Jigglypuff (believe it or not) and several others but I wouldn't mind swapping them out with new characters. I just thought it would be nice to be able to play as different Pokemon instead of playing as the same old ones over and over. I am pretty sure they would bring in some new playstyles. If I wanted the old playstyles, I can just go back to Melee and Brawl (that's why I will never give away my Melee and Brawl copies, just in case )

I've looked at the pokemon you've mentioned. They're good, but are you suggesting that the 5th generation starters will be in as a response to my proposal? I'm asking because I thought that there'd be a 5th gen legendary playable--meaning that all generations could be cleverly represented without having too many slots from one series. Can you clarify?

I'll put my two cents in. I figure thes pokemon:

Grovyle: Actually had a big part in Mystery Dungeon.
Feraligatr: I want to switch up the whole fire being final evo, and I know he's pretty popular. He beat out typhlosion/meganium on my poll for the 2nd gen PT, not that this is anything concrete, just my personal experience.
Chimchar: Kind of got the short end of the stick. But I know generally speaking most people love the fire Pokemon. (Me not so much Minus the Charizard evo chain)

Thank you for choosing a lineup that's different from the others.

Guys...Piplup, Bayleef and Blaziken aren't bad choices, but can you NOT copy ToddCam? Come up with something else; if you agree with him, why not just say it and list your own choices? And does it HAVE to be water, grass, and fire representing phases 1 to 3 respectively? There's 27 choices and you're being predictable. Come on...

Honestly, though, as much as I feel like something like this should happen to represent all generations, I just don't see Squirtle, Ivysaur, or Charizard being cut. Not even for three second generation starters (because of the latest remake) like Totodile, Bayleef, and Typhlosion. Ever since the Pokemon Trainer was confirmed with Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard, I've always wanted to play as the generation three starters: Mudkip, Grovyle, and Blaziken. Those are my favorite, besides the first generation of course.

In fact, generation three has the LEAST chance of getting any representation, considering it has yet to be remade. Second generation has a slight chance, because of HeartGold and SoulSilver, and generation four has the best chance if Lucario isn't cut.

Okay, I understand that there will be backlash for the "loss" of Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard, but like Arcadenik said above, we're getting something new and you can enjoy the old playstyles in past games. This idea gives the oppurtunity to showcase the generations of Pokemon in playable form. Bringing things up to speed by having a 2nd generation Trainer in SSB4, then replacing him/her with the following generation in SSB5 and continuing that plan in SSB6 can lead to problems. The other series of Smash don't have enough characters to supply the roster up to SSB10 like Pokemon, and paying so much attention to Generation 1 with Pika, Jiggs AND Red seems biased. We'd have 5 generation 1 pokemon and about 2 from the most recent. Also, I noticed that you like Mudkip, Grovyle and Blaziken, so why did you suggest the same lineup as the others? I know you placed Blaziken -- a favorite of your's -- in the list, but you're still following the others and Brawl's. Why not make a roster that includes one of your other favorites?

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Okay, I understand that there will be backlash for the "loss" of Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard, but like Arcadenik said above, we're getting something new and you can enjoy the old playstyles in past games. This idea gives the oppurtunity to showcase the generations of Pokemon in playable form. Bringing things up to speed by having a 2nd generation Trainer in SSB4, then replacing him/her with the following generation in SSB5 and continuing that plan in SSB6 can lead to problems. The other series of Smash don't have enough characters to supply the roster up to SSB10 like Pokemon, and paying so much attention to Generation 1 with Pika, Jiggs AND Red seems biased. We'd have 5 generation 1 pokemon and about 2 from the most recent. Also, I HERD U LEIK MUDKIPZ!?, Grovyle and Blaziken, so why did you suggest the same lineup as the others? I know you placed Blaziken -- a favorite of your's -- in the list, but you're still following the others and Brawl's. Why not make a roster that includes one of your other favorites?

First of all, I fixed your post.

Anyway, I see what you're saying. But I suggested the same line-up as the others because I was using your guidelines and not picking three from the same generation. Coincidentally, my line-up (following your guidelines) is the same as the others (Piplup, Bayleef, and Blaziken) because first of all, those are the three Pokemon that I could choose based on your guidelines that I felt would fit best in Smash compared to other combinations, and I was also following the Water < Grass < Fire sequence for reasons I've already explained.

But are you saying introducing the starter Pokemon form the next generation in each Smash (SSB4 = Generation 2, SSB5 = Generation 3, SSB6 = Generation 4, and so on) would create problems and this plan won't? If this plan was used, then wouldn't a generation have to be left out in SSB5, then two generations in SSB6, and so on? That seems like the opposite of what you're actually trying to do, which is, if I'm not mistaken, showcase all the generations of Pokemon in a single game. For example:

This plan could work in SSB5. For this example, we're just going to assume that Pokemon will remain at four slots. Anyway, we'd see something like this:

-Pikachu
-Jigglypuff
-Pokemon Trainer (2nd-gen PKMN, 3rd-gen PKMN, 4th-gen PKMN)
-Zoroark

But what about SSB5?

-Pikachu
-Jigglypuff
-Pokemon Trainer (3 PKMN, only one from 1 of 4 gens, 2nd-gen, 3rd-gen, 4th-gen, or 5th-gen)
-(Latest and Greatest)



See what I'm saying? Either the Pokemon Trainer would have to get an additional Pokemon in each succeeding Smash game, or we'll have to leave out random generations for no good reason, which "wouldn't be fair" to them.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Not to cut into the Pokemon discussion, but just a thought:

Does anyone think SSB4 should be more balanced in terms of character viability? I for one would love to see more characters actually truly viable in competitive play rather than a dozen or maybe less than that, depending on who you talk to. It'd be great to have at least half or more than half of the roster being perfectly viable for competitive play, if that were somehow possible.

Just bothers me how bad Samus ended up being in Brawl after being a baller in Melee.

 

[Big-Cat]

That shouldn't even be a question.

 

[lordvaati]

Not to cut into the Pokemon discussion, but just a thought:

Does anyone think SSB4 should be more balanced in terms of character viability? I for one would love to see more characters actually truly viable in competitive play rather than a dozen or maybe less than that, depending on who you talk to. It'd be great to have at least half or more than half of the roster being perfectly viable for competitive play, if that were somehow possible.

Just bothers me how bad Samus ended up being in Brawl after being a baller in Melee.

yeah, it's possible. after all, they were able to balance it out so that Pikachu and kirby didn't murder the whole cast anymore in Melee, right? and Spacies were kept in check in Brawl(more or less) and they did try to buff characters like Ness and Zelda in the game. I can see some characters(MetaKnight) getting move changes, Buffs (Lucas, Poke trainer) and several other changes.

 

[vVv Rapture]

yeah, it's possible. after all, they were able to balance it out so that Pikachu and kirby didn't murder the whole cast anymore in Melee, right? and Spacies were kept in check in Brawl(more or less) and they did try to buff characters like Ness and Zelda in the game. I can see some characters(MetaKnight) getting move changes, Buffs (Lucas, Poke trainer) and several other changes.

Uh...correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't both Pikachu and Kirby (particularly Kirby) bad in Melee?

And Falco is the only high tier spacie in Brawl.

And Ness and Zelda suck in Brawl.

I'm confused. But I get what you're saying...some what.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Just bothers me how bad Samus ended up being in Brawl after being a baller in Melee.

I will never... EVER... forgive Sakurai or any developer for this fact.


Ever.

 

[Kantrip]

He meant in the transition to melee. Pika and kirby dominated 64.

 

[vVv Rapture]

He meant in the transition to melee. Pika and kirby dominated 64.

Oh okay, that makes sense. I guess.

And yeah Spyder, you are completely right. **** Sakurai for that, and many other, decisions.

 

[majora_787]

Oh okay, that makes sense. I guess.

And yeah Spyder, you are completely right. **** Sakurai for that, and many other, decisions.

Not just Samus. Let's not forget what he did to Link, Falcon, and Ganondorf. Hoo, boy...

 

[augustoflores]

@BirthNote...

My personal choice: Totodile, Grovyle, Infernape. (i personally love speed and grovyle is my all time favorite of starters of all levels. (

Spoiler

my love for speed can be seen in MvC3 when i choose Felicia, X-23, Zero... my love is different in smash as i love the gimmicks of Peach and Zamus.

) i know it is the same types as Red's in Brawl but i just like this! i wouldn't mind typhlosion and piplup or empoleon and chikorita or feraligatr and chimchar...

as a side note... clearly, no one saw my post 3-4 pages back as it was ignored yet again. this next section of my comment references the last comment i gave.

on the pokemon trainer. the choice of trainer is yours to choose. just simply change the alt for that character and you get to play as Red/Green, Ethan/Lyra, May/Brandon, Dawn/Lucas, even Hilbert/Hilda, or Wes and Michael even though their pokemon aren't in the game... it would just be a preference to play along with; the very same way we choose to play as Dark Link even though the announcer does not say Dark Link or Daisy... it's all about the satisfaction.

they would all have the same Bone to use so it would just be the sounds they make to have differing with each other. they only have like 6 lines, Right? (as for a supposed SSE esque type game in the next... IDK)... and WES doesn't talk... not sure about Michael though... didn't play that game. sooo... all male would have the same voice as none of them were in the anime... i don't care about ethan being in that one chronicles trilogy.

 

[majora_787]

Hilbert/Hilda

I blatantly refuse to call them that.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Now, I love the smash series. That said, shouldn't it end after the 4th one? I mean it still makes money, but so does other series (which I won't say because I'll get flamed by fanboys more than a so-called witch at Salem). Any who, where we at? Oh yeah! I believe it is like a good song. The more you hear it each day, the more it becomes bland. I love the franchise, but I would be very satisfied if this was the last one.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Now, I love the smash series. That said, shouldn't it end after the 4th one? I mean it still makes money, but so does other series (which I won't say because I'll get flamed by fanboys more than a so-called witch at Salem). Any who, where we at? Oh yeah! I believe it is like a good song. The more you hear it each day, the more it becomes bland. I love the franchise, but I would be very satisfied if this was the last one.

Eh, can't really say. The series only has three games in it, as much as it is...well, not a new series, per say. The fact that Smash games aren't pumped out like Mario or CoD is means it has more longevity than most franchises, so I'd say that, if they wanted to, they could get away with more than 4 games.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Eh, can't really say. The series only has three games in it, as much as it is...well, not a new series, per say. The fact that Smash games aren't pumped out like Mario or CoD is means it has more longevity than most franchises, so I'd say that, if they wanted to, they could get away with more than 4 games.

True, I just hope they don't milk it out. I hate it when companies feed off of nostalgia (funny thing is most of my systems are Nintendo). I guess as long as it innovates and improves instead of just pushing out sequels with minor improvements, it's okay. I just don't think that it should go on so long that we are playing Super Smash Bros. X-2 part 6 in the year 2050.

 

[ToddCam]

WHY must is go Water, Grass Fire!? Why does everyone assume this? Feraligatr and Empoleon are just as deserving as Typhlosion and that stupid fire monkey.

I wasn't saying that's what I thought it would be. I was saying what I would choose. I considered all the options.

For the final forms, I chose Blaziken because I'm not a big fan of of the final forms of the 4th gen starters, the 2nd gen starters are a little too dull (though I do like Feraligatr a lot), and I especially like Blaziken (I guess because it is my oldest Pokémon that I still have). Sceptile would be another good choice for me, but I went with Blaziken. That left the other two slots for Water and Grass.

I initially chose Totodile, which is my favorite Water starter after Squirtle, but then that would mean picking Grotle, which I didn't really like. So I thought "Piplup's ok," and that left Bayleef.

Other possible line-ups I would find ok:

Mudkip, Quilava, Torterra
Totodile, Combusken, Empoleon
Piplup, Quilava, Sceptile

I guess I'd be ok with any combo, except I think Croconaw is terrible looking, and I dislike monkeys in general, so I would prefer to avoid the Infernape line.

 

[augustoflores]

Spoiler

changed my avatar to a drawing i drew of me if i was in Street Fighter Alpha 3... it's also my Facebook profile picture.

I made a list of pokemon I deem playable:
Bulbasaur, Ivysaur.
Charmander, Charmeleon, Charizard.
Squirtle, Wartortle, Blastoise.
Chikorita, Bayleef, Meganium.
Cyndaquil, Quilava, Typhlosion.
Totodile, Croconaw, Feraligatr.
Treeko, Grovyle, Sceptile.
Torchic, Combusken, Blaziken.
Mudkip, Marshtomp, Swampert.
Turtwig, Grotle.
Chimchar, Monferno, Infernape.
Piplup, Prinplup, Empoleon.
Snivy, Servine.
Tepig, Pignite, Emboar.
Mijumaru, Futachimaru.

if there is a slash through the name... it's a little iffy for playable... if the pokemon is not listed, there is no way in hell it could be playable... i used the japanese names for the GEN V water line because i have an extreme distaste for their respective names in english.

 

[Soldner Kei]

DLC would be cool, cause all the DLC that brawl has is made my fans, sometimes better than Nintendo developers, but mods like BB,B+,P:M will never be taken serious by public(outsite competitive community of course) cause people just look at them as "hack mods" or something that ins't supported by developers, now if nintendo adds DLC for textures, stages, even characters, balance patches, new gamemodes, etc etc, SSB4 would be pretty much the best fighting game out there IMO... oh well, june 7th, let's hope

 

[Sonic Poke]

Yesterday he was playing with my cousin smash, Pokemon Trainer vs. Marth, then appeared the smash ball, using Ivysaur, broke quickly and sent a triple to finish him. He went flying, but occurred while the triple finish could see the Ivysaur uses an attack not normally seen, the solar bean, so with Squirtle and Charizard, who use their strongest attacks, which take little given separate but together, lead to air. I noticed also that each title in a series ssb acrescentadam form of attack is, as in melee, the side special move, like in brawl, the final smash. So ssb4 should have a new form of attack, a new movement, as the sum A + B Button + A or B, chestnut a fresh attack. See what some and then talk about what you think, and give me other tips:

Ivysaur: Solar bean
Charizard: Fire Blast
Squirtle: Surf
DK: Coconut Shooter
Pikachu: Thunder Wave
Ness: PK Rockin '
Lucas: PK Love
Bowser: Explosion Of Magma

 

[EmperorB-rad2kj]

With news of the new Nintendo Wii successor being released in 2012 I think it's say to say a new brawl will see the light of day when it has been released for a while. DLC is definitely an option as we may see a marketplace like with psn, and xbox live.

 

[Big-Cat]

Not a new Brawl (because how many of us want that), not a new Melee, but a new Smash game altogether.

And I say no to DLC unless they rebalance the rest of the cast to accommodate the new characters. I'm fine with cosmetic changes though.

 

[BirthNote]

Because searching for my idea would be tedious as it is a few pages back, I'm going to include it in my posts.

New Pokemon Trainer Idea​

Spoiler

What if the Pokemon Trainer didn't have 3 pokemon from one generation? Instead, what if he/she had a lineup that combined generations 2 through 4? Pokemon representation can be brought up to speed if this happens, as opposed to a 3rd Generation in SSB5 and so on. There's many pokemon to choose from in one generation alone, therefore deciding who makes it is anyone's guess, so here are the NUMEROUS options:



2nd Generation
Chikorita

Bayleef

Meganium

Cyndaquil

Quilava

Typhlosion

Totodile

Croconaw

Feraligatr

3rd Generation
Treecko

Grovyle

Sceptile

Torchic

Combusken

Blaziken

Mudkip

Marshtomp

Swampert

4th Generation
Turtwig

Grotle

Torterra

Chimchar

Monferno

Infernape

Piplup

Prinplup

Empoleon

The pokemon are listed from phases 1 to 3. I've color-coded them to make their type (grass, fire, water) obvious, and I provided images because not everyone (myself included) knows what these pokemon look like.

So, my idea is for the Trainer to have 3 pokemon, but with one belonging to a specific generation, type and phase. The list above features the choices, and only one pokemon can be chosen from each generation, as well as type, and evolution phase. The chosen 3 can't share similarities in phase, type or generation.

While I do have an idea for who I'd pick, I'm not into pokemon like I was as a kid, so I feel that I can't choose wisely. Also, some of these candidates can't work for Smash because of some...notable concerns. Some are armless, others are FREAKING MASSIVE (guess who), and one looks like a sinister DeDeDe. Anyway, my personal choice would be to follow up on Brawl's PT range: fire would have its first phase, water would be in its second, and grass would feature its third phase. The phase layout that I've mentioned is how I would do it--if you want to come up with your own layout or follow Brawl's, go ahead.

So what do you all think? Is it best for the PT to have a strictly 2nd generation lineup, or have a roster that spans these 3 generations? With this, they could possibly get away with featuring all of Pokemon generations; Pika and Jiggs feature the first whereas the Trainer showcases 3 and the 5th generation can get represented by the pokemon that some have been rooting for a few pages back. Who would you choose for the Pokemon Trainer's fighters?

And now, the replies to some recent posts:

I suggested the same line-up as the others because I was using your guidelines and not picking three from the same generation. Coincidentally, my line-up (following your guidelines) is the same as the others (Piplup, Bayleef, and Blaziken) because first of all, those are the three Pokemon that I could choose based on your guidelines that I felt would fit best in Smash compared to other combinations, and I was also following the Water < Grass < Fire sequence for reasons I've already explained.

The problem was just the choices being the same. The sequence only added to that.

But are you saying introducing the starter Pokemon form the next generation in each Smash (SSB4 = Generation 2, SSB5 = Generation 3, SSB6 = Generation 4, and so on) would create problems and this plan won't? If this plan was used, then wouldn't a generation have to be left out in SSB5, then two generations in SSB6, and so on? That seems like the opposite of what you're actually trying to do, which is, if I'm not mistaken, showcase all the generations of Pokemon in a single game. For example:

This plan could work in SSB5. For this example, we're just going to assume that Pokemon will remain at four slots. Anyway, we'd see something like this:

-Pikachu
-Jigglypuff
-Pokemon Trainer (2nd-gen PKMN, 3rd-gen PKMN, 4th-gen PKMN)
-Zoroark

But what about SSB5?

-Pikachu
-Jigglypuff
-Pokemon Trainer (3 PKMN, only one from 1 of 4 gens, 2nd-gen, 3rd-gen, 4th-gen, or 5th-gen)
-(Latest and Greatest)

See what I'm saying? Either the Pokemon Trainer would have to get an additional Pokemon in each succeeding Smash game, or we'll have to leave out random generations for no good reason, which "wouldn't be fair" to them.

You're right, this plan could cause problems. The idea focused mainly on Smash4, and I basically used Smash5 to counter a "why not have a 2nd gen lineup and so on" reply. By continuing Brawl's PT precedent, we'd have generations on a waiting list that may never be completed. Based on the comments of SSB4's viable candidates, we can see that there isn't much left and Smash can't go on forever. Although Pokemon can supply the series up to SSB10 and beyond, the others can't. But at the same time, my idea will eventually leave generations behind, so I think its best to make this a one-game feature. Here's my solutions

Spoiler

(let me know if you all have any)

; they could:

-Make SSB4 the last game that comes before a restructuring, or simply the last game in the series.
-Make SSB4 the only game in the series to represent all generations in playable form.
-Leave generations behind as you've suggested.
-Open a new slot, as you've suggested.
-Simply follow Brawl's PT precedent.

They're not perfect, but that's what I can think of. I chose option 2 because Pokemon is currently at a point where they can have all generations playable in 4 slots. This feature can add to the uniqueness of the title and allow it to be seen as the entry that included all generations.

My personal choice: Totodile, Grovyle, Infernape. (i personally love speed and grovyle is my all time favorite of starters of all levels. i know it is the same types as Red's in Brawl but i just like this! i wouldn't mind typhlosion and piplup or empoleon and chikorita or feraligatr and chimchar...

Cool. The type layout isn't an issue. As long as the choices differ everything is fine.

as a side note... clearly, no one saw my post 3-4 pages back as it was ignored yet again. this next section of my comment references the last comment i gave.

on the pokemon trainer. the choice of trainer is yours to choose. just simply change the alt for that character and you get to play as Red/Green, Ethan/Lyra, May/Brandon, Dawn/Lucas, even Hilbert/Hilda, or Wes and Michael even though their pokemon aren't in the game... it would just be a preference to play along with; the very same way we choose to play as Dark Link even though the announcer does not say Dark Link or Daisy... it's all about the satisfaction.

they would all have the same Bone to use so it would just be the sounds they make to have differing with each other. they only have like 6 lines, Right? (as for a supposed SSE esque type game in the next... IDK)... and WES doesn't talk... not sure about Michael though... didn't play that game. sooo... all male would have the same voice as none of them were in the anime... i don't care about ethan being in that one chronicles trilogy.

That's another workable solution to the "who would the Trainer be" problem. So far, there's this and the possibility of a PT created for SSB4. The SSB-created character could have a male and female appearance, with 5 (give or take) alt colors each.

Other possible line-ups I would find ok:

Mudkip, Quilava, Torterra
Totodile, Combusken, Empoleon
Piplup, Quilava, Sceptile

I guess I'd be ok with any combo, except I think Croconaw is terrible looking, and I dislike monkeys in general, so I would prefer to avoid the Infernape line.

Good, more lineups. I came up with 9 sets, but I'll list 4:

Treecko, Quilava, Empoleon
Mudkip, Bayleef, Infernape (Brawl's precedent)
Chimchar, Marshtomp, Meganium
Totodile, Monferno, Sceptile

I made a list of pokemon I deem playable:
Bulbasaur, Ivysaur.
Charmander, Charmeleon, Charizard.
Squirtle, Wartortle, Blastoise.
Chikorita, Bayleef, Meganium.
Cyndaquil, Quilava, Typhlosion.
Totodile, Croconaw, Feraligatr.
Treeko, Grovyle, Sceptile.
Torchic, Combusken, Blaziken.
Mudkip, Marshtomp, Swampert.
Turtwig, Grotle.
Chimchar, Monferno, Infernape.
Piplup, Prinplup, Empoleon.
Snivy, Servine.
Tepig, Pignite, Emboar.
Mijumaru, Futachimaru.

if there is a slash through the name... it's a little iffy for playable... if the pokemon is not listed, there is no way in hell it could be playable... i used the japanese names for the GEN V water line because i have an extreme distaste for their respective names in english.

I had issues with some of the pokemon as well. Although I was implying that Empoleon looks like a sinister DeDeDe, that doesn't mean they'd have much in common. But anyway, when I made my lists, I completely avoided the Turtwig line. The 2 evolutions look like they'd be useless in the air and too big. I was also wary of some starters because their arms weren't developed enough, but I still think Piplup had a shot.

Eventually, I will finalize this idea once some details are worked out.

 

[lordvaati]

True, I just hope they don't milk it out. I hate it when companies feed off of nostalgia (funny thing is most of my systems are Nintendo). I guess as long as it innovates and improves instead of just pushing out sequels with minor improvements, it's okay. I just don't think that it should go on so long that we are playing Super Smash Bros. X-2 part 6 in the year 2050.

dude, you make it sound like it's coming out yearly. the thing about nintendo franchises is that they are like Comic books- it's a cliff hanger medium, so there is no real end. and they don't feed nostalga, man- they are giving people what they want. they had difficulty getting out a new KI game because of the death of Yokoi, just like why they tok so long to get out Prime. the Mario games can't really apply, since excluding spinoffs, the average release date of a Mario game is 3-5 years, like it is with.....well, EVERY NINTENDO SERIES. you most likely said this because of the death of the GH series, amirite? but I don't think it's possible to milk a franchise that has only released 3 games in the expanse of 12 years. so chill out, man-they won't kill the franchise, but they shouldn't just abruptly end it either-because I know I'm not alone when I don't want to see the Mario,Zelda, DK, etc. series end just because we've been getting them for 20+years.

 

[Da Generic Name]

I'd like to ask you all something...

I'm trying to settle out something with a few people I know.
They think that if there was a SSB4, more people would perfer to play as Gary Oak with the characters Gengar, Scizor, and Aggron, than they would as May with Mudkip, Grovyle, and Blaziken.
Me, on the other hand, think more people would like to play as May.
Now, if the people here had a choice between the two characters...who would you take/perfer?


I apologize if this is in the wrong section. I saw the SSB4 speculation thread here, and figured this would be the best place to put this.