[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[PD4FR]

Lucario seems to be the character that people have the least problem with being cut from Brawl's roster. The only other characters I see that people want to see cut are Toon Link and Snake. Two other characters that I also think might be prone to getting cut are Ike and Sonic.

Also, Black/White definitely seems to have a solid soundtrack.

Why do you think Sonic is at risk? He's pretty unique, I think they could do a good job with him in SSB4.

 

[LostAddict]

All I know is that new champion theme song from Black/White HAS to be included. It is retardedly epic. And so **** catchy. And just hot **** it needs to be in there.

 

[ChronoBound]

Why do you think Sonic is at risk? He's pretty unique, I think they could do a good job with him in SSB4.

Because he is third-party. His inclusion is not merely up to Nintendo. For whatever reason, Sega can decide they don't want Sonic in Smash 4, or even Nintendo not approach Sega for Sonic in Smash 4. The same goes for Snake.

Also, I would not describe Sonic's moveset as being "pretty unique", seeing as half his moves revolve around him spinning in a ball. Heck, two of his specials seem almost the same to me.

 

[Starphoenix]

Because he is third-party. His inclusion is not merely up to Nintendo. For whatever reason, Sega can decide they don't want Sonic in Smash 4, or even Nintendo not approach Sega for Sonic in Smash 4. The same goes for Snake.

Also, I would not describe Sonic's moveset as being "pretty unique", seeing as half his moves revolve around him spinning in a ball. Heck, two of his specials seem almost the same to me.

I highly doubt Sega will pull Sonic, if anything I might see them try and push for Sonic to have more content in the game. Sega uses any and every opportunity to push Sonic when they can, plus Nintendo and Sega have been friendly as of late.

Snake is a different story.

 

[ChronoBound]

I highly doubt Sega will pull Sonic, if anything I might see them try and push for Sonic to have more content in the game. Sega uses any and every opportunity to push Sonic when they can, plus Nintendo and Sega have been friendly as of late.

Snake is a different story.

However, in Snake's favor a port of MGS3 is in development for the 3DS. He is also pretty popular with competitive players due to being the second best character in the game, and having an extremely unique moveset.

I still feel Snake feels out of place in Smash Bros., and that there should at least be a high budget Metal Gear on one Nintendo console. There were no Metal Gear games on the DS and Wii despite both those systems being among the highest selling consoles ever.

At least with Sonic, there are exclusive titles of that series that are regularly made for Nintendo consoles.

I feel that Simon Belmont would be a more fitting Konami representative for Smash Bros. than Snake, however, the Castlevania series as of the present is very niche.

 

[Starphoenix]

However, in Snake's favor a port of MGS3 is in development for the 3DS. He is also pretty popular with competitive players due to being the second best character in the game, and having an extremely unique moveset.

I still feel Snake feels out of place in Smash Bros., and that there should at least be a high budget Metal Gear on one Nintendo console. There were no Metal Gear games on the DS and Wii despite both those systems being among the highest selling consoles ever.

At least with Sonic, there are exclusive titles of that series that are regularly made for Nintendo consoles.

I feel that Simon Belmont would be a more fitting Konami representative for Smash Bros. than Snake, however, the Castlevania series as of the present is very niche.

Has the Metal Gear Solid game been confirmed as a port of MGS3? Last I heard they only confirmed that there is going to be a Metal Gear Solid 3D game?

I forgot about that so maybe Snake might have more credence to continue on in the Smash universe. Regardless of whether Snake or Sonic stay I need my Megaman!

 

[Big-Cat]

I still feel Snake feels out of place in Smash Bros., and that there should at least be a high budget Metal Gear on one Nintendo console. There were no Metal Gear games on the DS and Wii despite both those systems being among the highest selling consoles ever.

Snake is only out of place in the sense that he isn't a Nintendo character. Other than that, he fits in fine.

My guess for there not being a high budget metal gear on the Wii or DS may be for technical reasons. Kojima likes to have his games be cinematic so he may have felt that the Wii and DS were not adequate for him.

 

[UberMario]

I still feel Snake feels out of place in Smash Bros., and that there should at least be a high budget Metal Gear on one Nintendo console.

Does this count?, it's a total remake of MGS from the PS, but with a different engine and better graphics.

 

[ChronoBound]

Does this count?, it's a total remake of MGS from the PS, but with a different engine and better graphics.

That was back in 2004. Right now, the only thing Metal Gear related since then on a Nintendo console since then is the MGS3 tech-demo on the 3DS, and that may or may not lead to an actual Metal Gear game.

However, it is interesting to point out that a port of Super Street Fighter IV is being made for the 3DS. Hmmm, I would be quite interested to see how a character from a traditional fighting game, such as Ryu, would be in a non-traditional one such as Smash Bros.

 

[Starphoenix]

That was back in 2004. Right now, the only thing Metal Gear related since then on a Nintendo console since then is the MGS3 tech-demo on the 3DS, and that may or may not lead to an actual Metal Gear game.

However, it is interesting to point out that a port of Super Street Fighter IV is being made for the 3DS. Hmmm, I would be quite interested to see how a character from a traditional fighting game, such as Ryu, would be in a non-traditional one such as Smash Bros.

http://kotaku.com/5639396/metal-gear-3ds-out-in-2011#viewcomments

 

[ChronoBound]

http://kotaku.com/5639396/metal-gear-3ds-out-in-2011#viewcomments

So I was right about the tech demo being turned into a full port of MGS3.

When was the last time an original Metal Gear was released on a Nintendo console? Metal Gear: Ghost Babel for the Game Boy Color?

 

[UberMario]

I believe so, Chrono.

*and about Street Fighter*

I would not be surprised to see Ken, Ryu, and maybe Chun Li and M. Bison in SSB4, especially since if they get in, Megaman is practically a shoe-in, though I think Megman is Capcom's more likely choice if they only went with one series.

 

[Big-Cat]

That was back in 2004. Right now, the only thing Metal Gear related since then on a Nintendo console since then is the MGS3 tech-demo on the 3DS, and that may or may not lead to an actual Metal Gear game.

However, it is interesting to point out that a port of Super Street Fighter IV is being made for the 3DS. Hmmm, I would be quite interested to see how a character from a traditional fighting game, such as Ryu, would be in a non-traditional one such as Smash Bros.

Nohamotyo strikes once more.

I'm really curious as to why Capcom is doing SSFIV on the 3DS. If we're going to get any Street Fighter characters, it would be Ryu followed by Chun-Li. I think both of these characters could be adapted rather easily.

Ryu:
B: Hadouken
Side B: Tatsumaki Senpukyaku
Down B: Joudan Sokotou Geri
Up B: Shoryuken

Hell, aside from Down B, it's identical to Mario's pre-Brawl special moveset.

Chun-Li:
B: Kikouken
Side B: Hazan Shu
Down B: Spinning Bird Kick
Up B: Tenshoukyaku

The only problem I can see adapting these characters would be their normals.

And I'd still kill to see Super Smash Bros. vs. Street Fighter with Megaman as a special guest.

 

[Starphoenix]

No Street Fighter, give me Megaman or give me... Well, give me nothing...

EDIT: Nevermind

 

[ChronoBound]

No Street Fighter, give me Megaman or give me... Well, give me nothing...

EDIT: Nevermind

If there were five slots for third-party characters in Smash 4 I would assort them as:

Snake
Simon Belmont
Mega Man
Ryu
Sonic

 

[Starphoenix]

If there were five slots for third-party characters in Smash 4 I would assort them as:

Snake
Simon Belmont
Mega Man
Ryu
Sonic

Snake
Chocobo and Slime
Mega Man
Sonic

Those would be my choices.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Glad to see at least one person is aware of the irrationality behind CB's popularity "measurements." Kuma earned himself 500 Shiny Golden Toise Tokens, save them up for cool prizes son.


Also I'm starting to seriously consider Professor Layton. Previously I would've said that his only drawback is how out of character it would be to have him fight, but each new game is proving that wrong with more and more crazy awesome things from him.

I'd get into more detail but I'm curious to hear what other people think. Also I have no idea who has/hasn't played the games and cares about spoilers and whatnot, especially regarding the third game.

 

[DekuBoy]

I thought Layton wasn't a proper Nintendo character or something. Bah, I'm confused.

But Anthony Higgs is great. As is Other M.

 

[Big-Cat]

Glad to see at least one person is aware of the irrationality behind CB's popularity "measurements." Kuma earned himself 500 Shiny Golden Toise Tokens, save them up for cool prizes son.


Also I'm starting to seriously consider Professor Layton. Previously I would've said that his only drawback is how out of character it would be to have him fight, but each new game is proving that wrong with more and more crazy awesome things from him.

I'd get into more detail but I'm curious to hear what other people think. Also I have no idea who has/hasn't played the games and cares about spoilers and whatnot, especially regarding the third game.

Thanks. While I don't consider your sales connections to be proper for popularity measurement, it's a hell of a lot more accurate than using messageboards.

I don't know anything about the Layton games, but I should get around to playing the new one when my birthday comes along. It's a mystery game, right? And do you remember the Layton Twitter from a while back?

By the way, are these games connected via a plot like the Phoenix Wright games or are they stand alone?

 

[ChronoBound]

Glad to see at least one person is aware of the irrationality behind CB's popularity "measurements." Kuma earned himself 500 Shiny Golden Toise Tokens, save them up for cool prizes son..

Another poster who does not like me. I am sorry you are also upset over the developments and observations I have noticed. I wonder what parameters you do use? "Moveset potential"? "Whoever you like"? You need to relax. Popularity is definitely a factor in things, and so is role and importance in one's series, whether you choose to accept that or not.

Its funny how I am able to resurrect this thread whenever I post.

Anyway, about Other M. Apparently, sales have collapsed for the game. The game is tracking worse than Prime 3 despite the game coming out when the install base was much larger than it was in 2007. Heck, in the game's opening week in Japan it only sold 3K more in its opening week than Metroid Prime 1, and this was the game that was aimed at a primarily Japanese audience. Keep in mind also that the Cube's install base at the time was likely only around 3M, whereas the Wii's install base is more than triple that in Japan. I am more shocked though at the decline in opening weeks sales in North America compared to Prime 3.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't know, nearly 400,000 copies sold seems pretty good to me. Not every game is going to be a Halo or Mario game no matter what you do.

 

[ChronoBound]

I don't know, nearly 400,000 copies sold seems pretty good to me. Not every game is going to be a Halo or Mario game no matter what you do.

It did not sell as well as Prime 3 despite being on a MUCH larger install base. That is the problem.

Also, does anyone else remember when Brawl first came out how people were constantly calling the SSE "Kirby Super Star 2" and vehemently defending its quality? That was hilarious. I got called a troll for calling the SSE sub-par and monotonous.

 

[ElPanandero]

Another poster who does not like me. I am sorry you are also upset over the developments and observations I have noticed. I wonder what parameters you do use? "Moveset potential"? "Whoever you like"? You need to relax. Popularity is definitely a factor in things, and so is role and importance in one's series, whether you choose to accept that or not.

Its funny how I am able to resurrect this thread whenever I post.

Anyway, about Other M. Apparently, sales have collapsed for the game. The game is tracking worse than Prime 3 despite the game coming out when the install base was much larger than it was in 2007. Heck, in the game's opening week in Japan it only sold 3K more in its opening week than Metroid Prime 1, and this was the game that was aimed at a primarily Japanese audience. Keep in mind also that the Cube's install base at the time was likely only around 3M, whereas the Wii's install base is more than triple that in Japan. I am more shocked though at the decline in opening weeks sales in North America compared to Prime 3.

I'm not surpirsed, game blows.

anyway, @Toise

What exactly are these Awesome things Layton can do?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I thought Layton wasn't a proper Nintendo character or something. Bah, I'm confused.

Level-5 owns him, so 3rd party. Nintendo does publish them outside of Japan though (or did rather, Level-5's handling it after the one that just came out).

Probably the most successful new third-party franchise for Nintendo since the NES era, and it's exclusive to boot, so there's that.

Thanks. While I don't consider your sales connections to be proper for popularity measurement, it's a hell of a lot more accurate than using messageboards.

To be fair, passionate fans (like with Mother and Fire Emblem) make for a pretty strong case. But yeah, as long as you're not thinking "this group represents everyone" or generalizing ("this is what girls like") then you're in relatively good shape.

I don't know anything about the Layton games, but I should get around to playing the new one when my birthday comes along. It's a mystery game, right? And do you remember the Layton Twitter from a while back?

By the way, are these games connected via a plot like the Phoenix Wright games or are they stand alone?

They're standalone in that you can play each one and understand it, but you'll definitely enjoy them a lot more if you play them in order.

I haven't played Phoenix Wright, but they have dialogue trees in that, right? Layton doesn't. Gameplay is all exploring, talking to people/checking objects, solving puzzles, and playing some mini-games. Good chunk of time in dialogue and movies. I'm pretty sure you'd like it for the same reasons as Mother though.

And yeah I remember the Twitter thing, fake though so meh.


@edit 1 for CB: Prominence in series and appeal (whether people will dig this character if they've never heard of them; pretty key when Smash is way more popular than most series it showcases). Also not sure why your response to criticism over your myopia defaults to "haters gonna hate," but whatever.


@edit 2 for Panera Bread: if you don't care about spoilers, gimme a few minutes to find some YouTube clips

 

[ChronoBound]

I'm not surpirsed, game blows.

anyway, @Toise

What exactly are these Awesome things Layton can do?

Layton does not strike me as someone who can fight (though like anything a moveset can be made for him if one tried hard enough). Much like Phoenix Wright, his series revolves around solving puzzles, not beating the crap out of bad guys. And also like Phoenix Wright, I do not feel the characters lends himself toward fighting.

I found it funny how many people back in the day supported Phoenix Wright for Brawl despite him being a lawyer and not a fighter, and later Sakurai even mentions that he excludes some characters based off of "whether fighting is in their nature". It was ever more funny when even Capcom all-star fighting games (Tatsunoko and Marvel) excluded him based on this. However, I did hear a rumor that Franziska von Karma (one of the prosecutors from the Phoenix Wright series) was considered for Tatsunoko vs. Capcom.

 

[Big-Cat]

Level-5 owns him, so 3rd party. Nintendo does publish them outside of Japan though (or did rather, Level-5's handling it after the one that just came out).

Probably the most successful new third-party franchise for Nintendo since the NES era, and it's exclusive to boot, so there's that.

He'd definitely not be as expected as Megaman, that's for sure.

To be fair, passionate fans (like with Mother and Fire Emblem) make for a pretty strong case. But yeah, as long as you're not thinking "this group represents everyone" or generalizing ("this is what girls like") then you're in relatively good shape.

That's not quite what I was getting at, but that's just as valid. What I was getting at is that not everyone who buys the game is going to like it. That's part of the reasons sequels don't tend to be as successful. Still, sales numbers essentially place an upper bound of sorts on how many like the game.

They're standalone in that you can play each one and understand it, but you'll definitely enjoy them a lot more if you play them in order.

I haven't played Phoenix Wright, but they have dialogue trees in that, right? Layton doesn't. Gameplay is all exploring, talking to people/checking objects, solving puzzles, and playing some mini-games. Good chunk of time in dialogue and movies. I'm pretty sure you'd like it for the same reasons as Mother though.

Just from looking a little bit on Wiki, it seems best if I just start from the beginning for character development. Phoenix Wright doesn't have dialogue trees as it's a visual novel game. I would say it's a puzzle-based visual novel in the form of testimonies and putting facts together in order to move the plot along. And depending on the scenario, you might have to do some pixel hunting.

I might get around to playing the Prof. Layton games, but I'm not sure how they cost. If they had a trilogy compilation release for the first three games, I'd be sure to get it.

@Chrono
I don't think we know the whole story behind Phoenix Wright not making it in TvC, but they mentioned one issue would've been the hitboxes surrounding Objection! and the original, Japanese one. http://www.court-records.net/rips.htm The one below Objection! is the Japanese one.

While they did say Phoenix wasn't in MvC3, they never said why.

Anyway, did Roll have any prior fighting experience before appearing in Marvel and Tatsunoko?

@The Baker
What don't you like about Other M?

 

[ChronoBound]

Anyway, did Roll have any prior fighting experience before appearing in Marvel and Tatsunoko?

@The Baker
What don't you like about Other M?

Roll was actually a playable character in Mega Man Powered Up, however, I believe that was after her first playable appearance in Marvel vs. Capcom 2.

Also, I replayed Metroid II last night, and I forgot how good it was. I remember playing it back in the 90's. Metroid II may be pretty linear for a Metroid, however, that game sure did have atmosphere, and a lot of series staples got introduced with that game. Metroid II and Metroid 1 I am tempted to rank higher than Other M, however, that might just be my nostalgia. However, I would definitely say Hunters was worse than Other M. Other M though is definitely among the weakest Metroid games. Corruption I really liked, but I felt it was much weaker than Prime 1 and Prime 2.

Fire Emblem also seems to be going through a rut. Shadow Dragon was one of the worst games in the series (with the only two I would rank as being worse would be FE1 and FE2). I did not like Radiant Dawn much either. Personally, I think Fire Emblem was at its peak with FE4 through FE7. FE9 was great too though.

 

[Big-Cat]

I personally did not like the original Metroid. It could've been a lot better if it had a map and save stations.

 

[ElPanandero]

@Kuma

I haven't really player it much. I mostly watched a friend play (while simultaneously playing pokemon).

I just feel like they shouldhave either made it a 3rd person or a 1st person, switching back and forth is never a good idea. Otherwise I just have zero love for Metroid, which I feel is necessary to enjoy the games.

Though I wouldn't have save anything, because my biased opinion could have been an outlier, but I got Gameinformer today, which gave it a 6.5...

 

[Big-Cat]

You get mail on Sunday?

Anyway, most of the scores I've seemed have been in 80s range save for a few and some borderline obsessive haters like Sean Malstrom.

 

[ElPanandero]

I probably got it yesterday, but I got home today.

Meh, i usually trust Game Informer, probably more Bias. Ah well, i suppose it's not really my place to judge a Metroid Game.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

The gameplay is pretty solid. Cutscenes depend on your tolerance for extreme cheese. I kinda forgot about it already, and I'm a big Metroid fan, so there's that.


Anyway, here's the Layton action stuff. Lots of them happen around big plot moments, so spoilers and whatnot.

First game has this (less awesome, but

Spoiler

he MacGuyvers a hang-glider out of curtains and uses it to knock out a flying machine

):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGezzN9UjVQ

Sword fight from the second game (trailer had bits of this so I don't consider it a spoiler; the dialogue is definitely spoilery if you care though)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrUZLZnh1cM

Midway in the third game (

Spoiler

made a machine gun out of a broken slot machine while under fire

):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJrvjnV0yxQ

There's some crazy car stuff in the 3rd game but I can't find videos.


The 4th game and the movie supposedly have more sword fights, but you're on your own for those if you want to see them (they've been out in Japan for a while; we just now got game 3). Also Layton mentions

Spoiler

being brutally beaten to near death

during a scene in the third game, I thought there was a picture for that but I can't find it if there was. Oh well.

 

[ChronoBound]

I personally did not like the original Metroid. It could've been a lot better if it had a map and save stations.

Zero Mission fits this description.

 

[Big-Cat]

The gameplay is pretty solid. Cutscenes depend on your tolerance for extreme cheese. I kinda forgot about it already, and I'm a big Metroid fan, so there's that.[/url]

I must have a pretty strong tolerance for cheese because maybe one or two scenes reeked of it to me.

Zero Mission fits this description.

Hence why I prefer that one over the other. Having all the rooms look very similar in the original Metroid was a big turn off for me.

 

[Arcadenik]

Toise, before I watched these videos, I didn't think Professor Layton would be an interesting fighter but now I actually like the idea of Professor Layton being playable in Smash with these handmade weapons in these videos. It is too bad he is a third-party character and doesn't have much fan demand compared to Mega Man and 50 other Sonic characters. If he was really owned by Nintendo, then I would think that he might have a chance of appearing as a playable character since Nintendo seems to love advertising all the games of the series and the series is fairly popular, isn't it? His series icon would have to be the hat with the letter "L" on it like in the logo of the series.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Oh yeah, Layton's definitely popular. Level-5 (the company behind the series) actually earned enough money from the first game to start publishing games themselves in Japan, and with the sequels they've earned enough money to do that internationally.


There are a lot of characters and series like Layton who are clearly popular, but not necessarily within a specific circle, so it can be misleading sometimes. It's like how people here love Paper Mario and Ace Attorney, but you go somewhere else and they're talking up Castlevania or Harvest Moon or something. I know Sakurai is aware of this, so it's really no big deal for characters to lack that intense visible demand that certain people seem to value so much.

 

[ElPanandero]

I could dig Layton (or Wright). Layton seems like a sick character if they did it right

 

[ChronoBound]

le demand that certain people seem to value so much.

There are some characters that are popular in certain message boards, while disliked on others. For example, Dr. Mario actually got 40% of the vote in regards to returning for Smash 4 on SmashBoards, however, in a similar poll on GameFAQs he only received 23%. The primary variable for this kind of discrepancy can probably be tied into that there exists a large competitive community on SmashBoards, and since Doc is a tourney-viable character in Melee, much more people miss him on SmashBoards than in someplace like GameFAQs. The same goes for characters in this topic. I see Layton thrown around a lot here, however, elsewhere I mostly only see Mega Man and the occasional Simon Belmont or Ryu, in regards to requests for third-party characters.

With Pichu for example, a character whom is in "neligible" tier, the perecentage of Smash fans whom wish for him to return was EXACTLY the same for both the SmashBoards and GameFAQs polls done for the character (only 23%).

So in essence, while there may be some characters that are more popular in certain circles (such as Doc), there are some characters that are universally liked or disliked across the interweb.

The same I have noticed for Toad. Toad is relatively well-liked in this thread. However, in other forums, many feel the character is behind Bowser Jr. in terms of worth for a spot on Smash 4's roster. However, it is integral to keep in mind that anecdoctes for this thread are rather poor since 90% of the posts are done by about 5-8 people, and those 5-8 people are mostly Toad supporters. I say this even as a Toad supporter.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I'm glad you covered both ends of the internet from GameFAQs to SmashBoards.

 

[ChronoBound]

I'm glad you covered both ends of the internet from GameFAQs to SmashBoards.

It seems both you and Kuma have an endless bone to pick with me. How utterly childish.

Anyway, the reasoning behind performing polling only in those two places was because those are the most sizable and active Smash Bros. fan communities. I was even fortunate enough as it was to be allowed to put up a poll on the cut Melee characters returning on the Smash Bash forum.