[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[UberMario]

Spoiler

Yes, I am referring to Genosect. Apparently he is an ancient bug Team Plasma experimented on and turned into a war machine. So his origin story is similar to that of Mewtwo's, stat wise I hear he is around the same level with aforementioned Mewtwo and Deoxys. Plus he is our first insect legendary and he has a cannon which is always a plus. His battle theme is beyond creepy, seriously, there is CHANTING in it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFgFoomoI40

But I want to see how this Pokémon develops before I go jumping the "Genosect for SSB4" bandwagon.

Futachimaru, Zuruzukin, Zoroark, Kirikizan, and Genosect are the Pokémon I can see having shots at becoming playable characters.

Wrong one bro, I'm pretty sure this is the link to the song you were talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvVpEeQ7cck

And I could see

Spoiler

Zoroark and Genosect

being playable, with

Spoiler

Futachimaru being partnered with Tsutaja and Enbouu with a 5th gen trainer

but not as a stand alone.

Spoiler

I'd be kind of disappointed if Zuruzukin got in [mostly because he has such a freakin' terrible design], but I could see N having a three-pokemon team with Kirikizan, Ononokusu, Abagoora [even though he apparently dosn't get he first two in-game, they'd fit him]

@Above: Darkrai wouldn't have been playable anyway . . . . . . and Deoxys was used as a pokeball Pokemon.

 

[Starphoenix]

Yes, Mewtwo just got his own signature move! Psycho Break! I hope he returns, no Pokémon is quite like him. :'(

 

[Big-Cat]

Mewtwo, Toad, Ridley, and especially Anthony Higgs in SSB4 would make my day. There's Tom Nook too, but I'm not opening up that can of worms more than it already has been.

 

[Clownbot]

Mewtwo, Toad, Ridley, and especially Anthony Higgs in SSB4 would make my day. There's Tom Nook too, but I'm not opening up that can of worms more than it already has been.

How popular is Higgs with the fans? I could see him being in Smash if he took on more Metroid titles.

Actually, some people on the GameFAQs SSB4 poll are rooting for him lol

 

[Starphoenix]

Mewtwo, Toad, Ridley, and especially Anthony Higgs in SSB4 would make my day. There's Tom Nook too, but I'm not opening up that can of worms more than it already has been.

Yes, that would make me very happy as well. Though I'd toss K. Rool into the mix as well.

Ridley: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBMSZpWPvDI
Mewtwo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2p6AUFK2d4
Toad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUYQNIiNjq4
King K. Rool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSmDgjNnfzM

 

[Big-Cat]

How popular is Higgs with the fans? I could see him being in Smash if he took on more Metroid titles.

Actually, some people on the GameFAQs SSB4 poll are rooting for him lol

Despite the mixed opinions on Other M, I think a lot of people enjoyed him.

 

[PD4FR]

I agree, I'd love to see Mewtwo come back.
He had some really interesting moves in Melee. I can understand why they replaced him with Lucario, but I'd still prefer Mewtwo to be in SSB4, if I had to choose only one of them.

 

[ChronoBound]

How popular is Higgs with the fans? I could see him being in Smash if he took on more Metroid titles.

Actually, some people on the GameFAQs SSB4 poll are rooting for him lol

It is like only one or two people that keep suggesting Higgs. Heck, Dark Samus keeps getting more votes to be up for a vote than Higgs, and the Prime series is over. However, that might just be because everyone realize how great the Prime series is, and how Dark Samus would basically win in most canonical battles with the characters of other fighting series.

Also, did you see how Krystal's popularity basically collapsed? She only got a quarter of the yes votes when she was voted. Geno's popularity has collapsed too it seems. Heck, even Lip got a slightly higher vote than Krystal.

As for fan reaction to Other M, the consensus seems to be that it is one of the weakest Metroids, with the only one really being considered worse than it being (lol) Hunters.

As for 5th-generation, no one seems to like Zoroark, and he seems to have gotten the lowest vote of any newcomer voted on for Smash 4 on GameFAQs (even lower than Dr. Mario and Pichu). There are two 5th-gen legendaries that I see that will probably have large followings by the time Smash 4 is announced. I think Zoroark though will not have much of a fanbase.

It is nice that Mewtwo got a buff in 5th-gen which should serve to boost his popularity even more with the Pokemon fandom.

 

[Big-Cat]

lol at using GameFAQs of all places as a source

EDIT: Sorry, but that would be the last place I'd use to gauge anything.

 

[ChronoBound]

lol at using GameFAQs of all places as a source

I have seen this pretty much everywhere (the decline of Krystal and Geno). I am sorry you are unhappy with this development though. Midna's popularity has also collapsed, however, that is understandable considering she was basically a one-shot (just like with Skull Kid). Also, the GameFAQs Smash Bros. speculation community is probably one of the most intelligent ones outside the one at SmashBoards.

This actually reminds me of how Meowth, Heracross, and Skull Kid's popularity declined after Melee. Fawful actually used to also be a favorite for a Mario spot as well, however, for some inexplicable reason his popularity for Smash evaporated by the time Smash 4 was announced. My theory is that most of the Fawful crowd got absorbed into the Geno hype.

Also, I am seeing increasing popularity for characters who will likely be clones (Bowser Jr. and Black Shadow). I think the clone stigma is finally going away, since Sakurai actually did make the 2/3 of the new clones (Wolf and Lucas) unique characters aside from their specials and final smash. I also think the increase of Bowser Jr's popularity in comparison to the pre-Brawl days is a result of his continued presence of the main Mario titles. Toad has also seen an increase in his popularity among Smash fandom as a result of NSMBWii, however, it still reminds considerably behind that of Bowser Jr.'s and I say that as a Toad supporter.

 

[Big-Cat]

I have a question for you: Do you know how much of the declined "popularity" was from people who jumped on the bandwagon and those who wanted the character from the beginning?

 

[ChronoBound]

I have a question for you: Do you know how much of the declined "popularity" was from people who jumped on the bandwagon and those who wanted the character from the beginning?

Hmmm, testy are we?

No, there cannot be an accurate determination of how many people hopped onto the bandwagon for certain characters. I expect a lot of "bandwagonism" was behind Geno's rise. However, I expect for the decline for characters like Midna and Masked Skull Kid to mostly be due to their games becoming old news, which as result made them more forgotten by the fanbase. This happened with Vaati as well. Vaati was pretty popular during the early half of the pre-Brawl days, however, after Twilight Princess, Midna pretty much took his thunder because her game was more recent. I expect if there is an important primary character that is exclusive to Skyward Sword, that character too, will receive a lot of requests despite more likely than not being another one-shot.

As Arcadenike mentioned earlier, a key aspect to a character's placement into Smash is "timing". Had Brawl entered development a year later, we might have seen Micaiah instead of Ike and Darkrai or Shaymin instead of Lucario.

 

[Starphoenix]

I'm actually quite astonished by the Gamefaqs Smash community, it isn't as horrid as I once believed. Although I admit I blew up in the Starfy nomination thread, people were saying things that really annoyed me.

 

[ChronoBound]

I'm actually quite astonished by the Gamefaqs Smash community, it isn't as horrid as I once believed. Although I admit I blew up in the Starfy nomination thread, people were saying things that really annoyed me.

Were they arguments against or for Starfy?

Personally, I think Starfy is a kind of a dark horse. His popularity has definitely increased a lot more among Smash fandom since his series went international. TOSE has also expressed interest in a Wii installment for the series, so they might make even more people change their opinion on Starfy.

However, I think the biggest thing against Starfy are the "rumors" that Sakurai does not like Starfy. However, since those are just rumors, perhaps that is something that should just be discarded.

 

[Starphoenix]

Were they arguments against or for Starfy?

Personally, I think Starfy is a kind of a dark horse. His popularity has definitely increased a lot more among Smash fandom since his series went international. TOSE has also expressed interest in a Wii installment for the series, so they might make even more people change their opinion on Starfy.

However, I think the biggest thing against Starfy are the "rumors" that Sakurai does not like Starfy. However, since those are just rumors, perhaps that is something that should just be discarded.

They were for him, even though it does not matter to me whether he is playable or not I felt users objections were illogical. Which is why I was annoyed. lol

As far as those rumors are concerned the only place where people derive that from is Starfy's DOJO update. In my opinion I think Sakurai was just running with the joke about Kirby and Starfy being rivals. More of an inside joke to those who knew.

 

[ChronoBound]

They were for him, even though it does not matter to me whether he is playable or not I felt users objections were illogical. Which is why I was annoyed. lol

I think the user you might being talking about is Bat, who is pretty much a rabid Starfy fanboy who was not articulate about the worth of Starfy's inclusion. Heck, I put up a much more persuasive argument about his inclusion, despite not being much a supporter for the character.

 

[Starphoenix]

I think the user you might being talking about is Bat, who is pretty much a rabid Starfy fanboy who was not articulate about the worth of Starfy's inclusion. Heck, I put up a much more persuasive argument about his inclusion, despite not being much a supporter for the character.

I saw Bat come in, poor guy was one step away from cutting himself and bleeding all over the place. I came in towards the end of the thread and just unloaded on everyone. It culminated with me listing my 3 biggest grievances within the Smash community, corresponding with how that thread was fitting into number two.

 

[ChronoBound]

I saw Bat come in, poor guy was one step away from cutting himself and bleeding all over the place. I came in towards the end of the thread and just unloaded on everyone. It culminated with me listing my 3 biggest grievances within the Smash community, corresponding with how that thread was fitting into number two.

Any character can basically be given a moveset if one tries hard enough.

I definitely do find it peculiar though that Bowser Jr. and Black Shadow are both characters whom will likely end up clones (or luigified clones) yet they are among the most popularly requested characters for Smash 4.

I remember during the pre-Brawl days about how a character likely ending up as a clone was used as a mark against their inclusion, especially for Toon Link and Wolf, and the ironic thing is that one of the reasons they probably did get included because they were able to be "cloned" (though Wolf is only four specials and a final smash away from being a completely unique character).

Also, Zoroark is not the character I am watching as the 5th-gen representative. Instead, its two legendaries from that generation. I am expecting both to develop large fanbases within less than a year.

 

[Big-Cat]

Yeah, I'm majorly pissed at you, Chrono. /sarcasm

Whenever I see your posts, I get the feeling that you're expecting people to constantly be saying they want X character in and not doing so means that popularity declined. I would love to see Krystal, Nook, Higgs, Ridley, Toad, Syrup, etc., but I'm not going to be saying I want them every day. I have other things to worry about, namely college life.

 

[Starphoenix]

Yeah, I'm majorly pissed at you, Chrono. /sarcasm

Whenever I see your posts, I get the feeling that you're expecting people to constantly be saying they want X character in and not doing so means that popularity declined. I would love to see Krystal, Nook, Higgs, Ridley, Toad, Syrup, etc., but I'm not going to be saying I want them every day. I have other things to worry about, namely college life.

What happened over at Gamefaqs was a little more significant though, I know what Chrono's talking about and it was not good for Krystal.

@Chrono:

Let me guess the two legendaries? Meloai and Genosect. BTW, it's been confirmed that Genosect is going to have 5 different forms.

 

[ChronoBound]

What happened over at Gamefaqs was a little more significant though, I know what Chrono's talking about and it was not good for Krystal.

@Chrono:

Let me guess the two legendaries? Meloai and Genosect. BTW, it's been confirmed that Genosect is going to have 5 different forms.

Ding ding ding.

I expect Meloia to become popular because due to it having two forms (one of which is fighting) and because of its feminine form. The funny thing is that Meloia is actually genderless.

I expect Genosect to become popular due to how powerful it is and for story reasons in which it seems to closely resemble Mewtwo in which

Spoiler

according to heresay from what I heard about the story Genosect is a bioweapon, Not only that, Genosect was said to be the Pokemon that caused the mass extinction of the dinosaurs and pre-historic Pokemon. According to heresay, Team Plasma's goals later in the game are to destroy mankind and they plan to use Genosect as their weapon to wipe out people

and because he has a freaking cannon on his back. Heracross and Scizor were both popularly requested characters during the pre-Melee days so a bug Pokemon becoming popular is not too far-fetched.

 

[PD4FR]

What happened over at Gamefaqs was a little more significant though, I know what Chrono's talking about and it was not good for Krystal.

On the contrary; nothing at Gamefaqs is significant.

I would love to see Krystal in SSB4. People always say "Oh, she'll be a clone, bad idea", but if she's not, which I don't think she would be, then she would be a great addition to the roster.

Four Star Fox characters seems like a little much, I'll admit. Hopefully that won't be such a big deal, because the other series (Kirby, Mario, Metroid, Zelda, etc.) will probably be getting more, too. It will even out, somehow.

 

[Big-Cat]

Is GameFAQS a representation of the whole world? Aside from the inherent mess there tends to be at GameFAQS, it's small portion of the Internet and not an adequate representation of what the people want.

Besides, I'd be more concerned as to how the characters wanted will play and how differently they would play from the other characters, not how popular they are (though these easily overlap).

 

[ChronoBound]

On the contrary; nothing at Gamefaqs is significant.

GameFAQs has probably the most active Smash Bros. forum aside from this site. Its also pretty big.

Also, there is also the matter about Krystal likely not showing up in the latest installment for the series (which is a remake for 64). This will no doubt make Smash 4's content mostly reflect Star Fox 64 3DS, which does not have some of the characters later introduced in the series such as Krystal and Panther. That spells bad news for Krystal in general. Nintendo might also be trying to create a new continuity for Star Fox, that ignores the events of Assault, Adventures, and Command. Nintendo has done this in the past with some of their other series such as Fire Emblem and F-Zero in which an alternative continuity was created.

One character in mind that was eventually faded out was Donkey Kong Junior. DKJ was very important and popular guy for the DK series even with the release of the DKC games. DKJ continued to appear in Mario spinoffs even though he stopped appearing in Donkey Kong games after Donkey Kong '94. However, after Game & Watch Gallery 4 for the Game Boy Advance, DKJ never made another playable appearance in a game ever again.

 

[Big-Cat]

Unlike most series, Super Smash Bros. is a crossover series. As such, the fanbase consists of people from different kinds of fanbases. You'll have people that are fans of this but not that. With that in mind, you still can't gauge popularity properly, even if you just use GameFAQs.

 

[Starphoenix]

Is GameFAQS a representation of the whole world? Aside from the inherent mess there tends to be at GameFAQS, it's small portion of the Internet and not an adequate representation of what the people want.

Besides, I'd be more concerned as to how the characters wanted will play and how differently they would play from the other characters, not how popular they are (though these easily overlap).

In the poll where Krystal was nominated she only received 26% of the collective vote. Towards the end a few people's votes were simply out of pity and not reflective of a true vote. Not just on Gamefaqs but many gaming forums it seems that a majority of users are fine with the Star Fox line up and don't want another Star Fox character. Not to mention with Starfox 3DS being re-released there is the chance they may retcon the series where everything beyond 64 may not have occurred. She may very well fall into complete obscurity within the casual community by the time Smash 4 is in development.

EDIT: Looks like Chronobound beat me to the punch.

 

[ChronoBound]

Unlike most series, Super Smash Bros. is a crossover series. As such, the fanbase consists of people from different kinds of fanbases. You'll have people that are fans of this but not that. With that in mind, you still can't gauge popularity properly, even if you just use GameFAQs.

I have been observing Krystal's decline everywhere. Not just GameFAQs. I think quite frankly the big bad Wolf just blew all the wind right out of her. The same goes for Geno. Its just that GameFAQs lenient posting and activeness makes its an otherwise fertile place to do lots of polling and post a variety of discussions on Smash 4. Whereas on SmashBoards, pretty much the only place in which one is allowed to discuss Smash 4 is this topic, and its pretty much just visited by 5-8 users regularly, with some new user popping in randomly to take out their wishlist with 50 Sonic characters.

 

[PD4FR]

GameFAQs has probably the most active Smash Bros. forum aside from this site. Its also pretty big.

The last time I checked, the discussions there were useless. I'm not trying to be mean to GameFAQs or anything, I'm just saying what I remember.

Oh, and I can understand why Krystal won't make it, but that doesn't change the fact that it'd be nice to have her in SSB4.

I'd much rather see Mewtwo than Krystal, anyways, so as long as he makes it, I'm fine.

Edit - He's probably not going to make it either, though.

 

[Big-Cat]

Still, I think we can agree that characters would not be included solely on popularity, with Ice Climbers, R.O.B. (remember the massive hate he had in the beginning?), and Lucas being prime examples. If it was just soley the most "in" characters at the time, I think there would be no surprises in the roster.

 

[Starphoenix]

The last time I checked, the discussions there were useless. I'm not trying to be mean to GameFAQs or anything, I'm just saying what I remember.

Oh, and I can understand why Krystal won't make it, but that doesn't change the fact that it'd be nice to have her in SSB4.

I'd much rather see Mewtwo than Krystal, anyways, so as long as he makes it, I'm fine.

Edit - He's probably not going to make it either, though.

Yes, Gamefaqs does have it's share of insanity. Not a day goes by where I don't have to be reminded on how Pat Benatar is the most worthwhile addition to the cast.

Mewtwo has a better chance then people realize. Considering the reason he was possibly removed only had to do with a certain two characters deing developed really late into the development cycle which could have resulted in a longer delay had they decided to continue work on Mewtwo and Roy. Outside of that one instance I don't really see why he fares so poorly?

Still, I think we can agree that characters would not be included solely on popularity, with Ice Climbers, R.O.B. (remember the massive hate he had in the beginning?), and Lucas being prime examples. If it was just soley the most "in" characters at the time, I think there would be no surprises in the roster.

Ice Climbers and R.O.B were added for that surprise/nostalgic factor and Lucas was the main protagonist of the latest installment in the MOTHER series, besides also being a heavily requested character among Japanese players. Krystal doesn't really fall into any category other then the same one as Midna and Micaiah. Outdated secondaries.

 

[ChronoBound]

Edit - He's probably not going to make it either, though.

Mewtwo has the support of like 70% of Smash fans from most polls that I have seen. Also, Mewtwo is much more liked among Pokemon fans than Lucario is. Mewtwo also appears to have had a massive buff in 5th-gen, which will likely increase his popularity further with the fandom. Lucario might seem pretty popular here because here we have more competitive Smash fans, and Lucario is a tourney-viable character whereas Mewtwo is not.

Mewtwo today still has a sizable fanbase among Pokemon fans. It will probably be Lucario and Mewtwo fighting for the same spot, and if that is the case, Mewtwo might actually have a shot of taking the spot.

Also, Mother 3 sold 350K in Japan, so I would hardly call Lucas a character without popularity. He was actually quite popularly requested among Japanese Smash fans (along with Pokemon Trainer and Marth).

 

[PD4FR]

Yes, Gamefaqs does have it's share of insanity. Not a day goes by where I don't have to be reminded on how Pat Benatar is the most worthwhile addition to the cast.

Mewtwo has a better chance then people realize. Considering the reason he was possibly removed only had to do with a certain two characters deing developed really late into the developments cycle and not wanting to delay the game for to much longer, I don't really see why he fares so poorly?

I was just thinking he had less of a chance because of all the new Pokemon fighting him for his spot, plus Lucario. If Mewtwo makes it in, and Lucario stays, that is more than four Pokemon characters easily, and that doesn't even include the new ones they would want to put in. If they add Mewtwo and one newcomer Pokemon, that would be about 6 Pokemon characters.

I don't the game's going to have that many playable Pokemon, and that's why I'm a bit worried.

Edit - You guys do give a good point about Mewtwo taking Lucario's spot, but I'm not sure if the designers would actually do that.

 

[ChronoBound]

I was just thinking he had less of a chance because of all the new Pokemon fighting him for his spot, plus Lucario. If Mewtwo makes it in, and Lucario stays, that is more than four Pokemon characters easily, and that doesn't even include the new ones they would want to put in. If they add Mewtwo and one newcomer Pokemon, that would be about 6 Pokemon characters.

I don't the game's going to have that many playable Pokemon, and that's why I'm a bit worried.

Edit - You guys do give a good point about Mewtwo taking Lucario's spot, but I'm not sure if the designers would actually do that.

I think its practically guaranteed that we will be getting a Pokemon newcomer for Smash 4 (since Sakurai pretty much admitted that Game Freak has a heavy hand in determining the Pokemon content in Smash Bros.). So that would mean Mewtwo returning would be contingent on taking the spot of either Lucario or Pokemon Trainer. I feel it is unlikely that Pokemon will get six slots, however, if it does, that would mean Mewtwo would definitely return.

Edit, I heard this is Genosect's battle theme. Its pretty creepy and epic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFgFoomoI40

 

[PD4FR]

I think its practically guaranteed that we will be getting a Pokemon newcomer for Smash 4 (since Sakurai pretty much admitted that Game Freak has a heavy hand in determining the Pokemon content in Smash Bros.). So that would mean Mewtwo returning would be contingent on taking the spot of either Lucario or Pokemon Trainer. I feel it is unlikely that Pokemon will get six slots, however, if it does, that would mean Mewtwo would definitely return.

You present a good point; I agree.
I think four/five Pokemon would be a good number for SSB4. I would want Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, PT, and a newcomer. If I had to take out one of those to make it four, it would be PT.

 

[ChronoBound]

You present a good point; I agree.
I think four/five Pokemon would be a good number for SSB4. I would want Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, PT, and a newcomer. If I had to take out one of those to make it four, it would be PT.

If I were limited to five slots for Pokemon, I would do this:

Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Pokemon Trainer
5th-gen Pokemon

Nothing against Lucario, however, he is the least important to Pokemon out of the above listed Pokemon (okay, he is probably more popular than Jigglypuff, however, Jigglypuff is basically a Smash Bros. staple now).

Edit: Wow, I really love this remix of the Kanto Champion theme in Black/White.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dGwRXa9koE

 

[Big-Cat]

So, instead of debating whether or not GameFAQS is valid and whether or not most people seem to be victims of Nohamotyo, maybe we should be discussing how different characters could play instead of saying why they should or shouldn't be in.

I'll start off by saying that Krystal could be an offensive character, but her main goal is to get in using her launcher attack (USmash, but aims forward) and start wailing on the opponent with juggles ala Marvel.

Caeda (who I have limited knowledge from my limited FE experience) could play more defensively, preferring to zone the opponent.

Nook could be around setting traps by using pitfalls and furniture.

Toad, after the previous discussion, would be a mind games character using the mixups from his dash followups.

Or, if you prefer, we could dicuss the idea of there being a new attack button to open more options for normals.

 

[Starphoenix]

I agree, I would probably cut Lucario as well. Never cared for him as a Pokémon or a fighter. :\

Chrono, you should hear the credits theme. It's like something out of Golden Sun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj5h60tnRvM

Or, if you prefer, we could dicuss the idea of there being a new attack button to open more options for normals.

What do you have in mind?

 

[PD4FR]

If I were limited to five slots for Pokemon, I would do this:

Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Pokemon Trainer
5th-gen Pokemon

Nothing against Lucario, however, he is the least important to Pokemon out of the above listed Pokemon (okay, he is probably more popular than Jigglypuff, however, Jigglypuff is basically a Smash Bros. staple now).

You basically retyped my list.
Oh, and yes, I don't think they could take out Jigglypuff now, it just wouldn't be right.
None of the originals should ever be cut.
That theme was pretty interesting, by the way. So, I take it we don't know who's theme that actually is?

Edit - Kuma, we were deciding which pokemon were most likely to make it, it's not like we weren't discussing anything.

 

[Big-Cat]

What do you have in mind?

Nothing special. I don't there's enough of the character's playstyle potential being tapped with just one attack button. I'm fine with specials, but I do wish the other four directions were used like Link's boomerang., but that's a different subject.

Anyway, I'd like to see two attack buttons, a light attack and a heavy attack. I think putting in a medium one may be asking for too much, but I think this could provide options and help diversify playstyles a bit.

 

[ChronoBound]

I agree, I would probably cut Lucario as well. Never cared for him as a Pokémon or a fighter. :\

Chrono, you should hear the credits theme. It's like something out of Golden Sun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj5h60tnRvM

Lucario seems to be the character that people have the least problem with being cut from Brawl's roster. The only other characters I see that people want to see cut are Toon Link and Snake. Two other characters that I also think might be prone to getting cut are Ike and Sonic.

Also, Black/White definitely seems to have a solid soundtrack.