[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Big-Cat]

Oh, that. I was watching the Devastation 2010 Brawl finals and was thinking about the same thing.

 

[Cyn]

Smash is 3D would be like a whole new game, I wouldn't like it. 3D back ground would be fine though. But not true 3D arenas.

 

[BirthNote]

I don't think that they meant an SSB with 3D arenas.

 

[UberMario]

Nah, we were talking about how the 3D effects would be utilized if a SSB3DS came out, not a 3D Smash game.

 

[Shorts]

In the next smash game, what improvements should be made to jigglypuff? It seems like, when i play her in SSB64 she can stand her ground realitivly well, but as we move into brawl trying to beat a bowser, dk or snake is a joke.

 

[Big-Cat]

You might as well be asking how to improve anyone outside of the top seven or whatever in Brawl. Before any characters get improved, they need to fix those infinites (Falco can juggle with his lasers, chaingrabs, planking, etc.) and do something like the pre-emptive balancing they did in BBrawl.

Jigglypuff was affected greatly by the reduced hitstun in. Without, the combos she needs to work are nonexistent. Then there's the nerf on rest. So hitstun alone could fix up quite a bit.

Here are some others I have in mind for other characters.

Link: He primarily needs an improvement in his recovery. Balanced Brawl fixed this by letting him do his hookshot out of his Up B. They also improved the strength of his arrows and sword attacks which were really underwhelming as the quickest attack he has has only six frames of startup. However, the next game will more than likely have different physics present so they may not be appropriate for him. Same applies for other suggestions from here on.

Zelda: Balanced Brawl helped her by letting her move back and forth with Nayru's Love which helped her pathetic approaching options. Look at the others for other characters here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/OfficerCooper

Samus: More knockback on her projectiles and the ability to feint them (save for bombs) come to mind.

Ness: PSI Magnet is nigh useless when not fighting a character with absorbable projectiles. Which is why I suggest that PSI Magnet reels in the opponent to him leaving them open to an attack along with his projectile absorbing trait intact. The range for this extends forward and behind him and only catches characters on the ground.

Lucas: Has double the range of Ness' PSI Magnet but this range applies only to the front of him.

Peach: A better second jump. Seriously, I couldn't play as her with her like that.

 

[Decote]

Well, after the announcement of Nintendo 3DS we could consider a Super Smash Bros. for the new portable console. However, I´ve been thinking on the things that Sakurai and his geeks could improve from Brawl and the thing is that I think they can´t make such a great game as we could imagine:

- In most of the cases, online game in fighting games does not work as good as current multiplayer, and Nintendo has shown us that they have to improve a lot this feature.

- In graphic modeling, they could make better graphics and details, but this game does not really need HD graphics to improve as a whole.

- They could create a new adventure mode with some new features, but the lack of dialogues would be completely wrong for the story.

- Thinking about the characters roster, 20 new characters were introduced in Brawl. More of them were charismatic characters fromNintendo famous series (Diddy Kong, Metaknight, Wolf, Ike, Lucas, Dedede). I understand that fans want to play Smash Bros. with their favourite characters (I want to play with Deoxys! XD), even if these characters have a minor role within their series.

But do you really think that a new Smash Bros. with 10 new minor characters (Bowser Jr., Krystal, Dimentio, Ridley, etc) would really make better
the game? I think it does not. Ok, there are some good candidates as Little Mac, Matthew (new Golden Sun), Stafi (The Legend of Stafi) and Ray MK (Custom Robo), even they could have perfectly been in Brawl. But I think that it would be a waste of time to add this characters with only a few improvements in gameplay.

I am pretty determined to say that Super Smash Bros. series need a rest in the next generation of consoles (3DS or Wii 2, I do not care). However, I understand that
Nintendo must sell games, so, I have thought that another game could substitute Super Smash Bros. sales. And that game should be a game with the similar characteristics, that is a crossover fighting game.

As a manga and Nintendo fan, I would like that this game would be a Nintendo vs Shonen Jump. The gameplay of this game would be pretty different from Smash Bros. series, highly influenced by Jump Ultimate Stars gameplay, being like a traditional fighting game.

In this game, the roster would be made only with one or two characters representing each series/manga. Although it seems that it is a short roster, the fact is that it would have more than 30 characters, that is, more than Melee and without clone characters. As a new feature, it would be good to add to each character a customable move, what it would be called "Support move".

This "Support Move" is based in the system of support characters from Jump Ultimate Stars, which consists of attacks made by secundary characters from each game/manga.
Thus, when you choose your character you can junct it a supporting character within some possibilities in this way:

- Super Mario Bros. series: Mario

- Super Mario Bros. Series Support characters: Luigi, Princess Peach, Rosalina, Toad, Yoshi

- Dragon Ball series: Goku

- Dragon Ball Series Support Characters: Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta, Krilin, Trunks.

The "Support Character" movements would be use in special conditions. (With full energy or with a concrete object)

The Support moves would differ depending on from the support character:

Mario+Luigi: Super Combinated Attack

Mario+Toad: Toad helps Mario healing him giving him a mushroom.

Goku+Gohan: Super Combinated Attack

Goku+Vegeta: Vegetto fusion.

This gameplay system would be pretty dinamic and you could practice with the fighting style that fits you better (offensive or defensive).
Of course it would have online modes and other features like 3 vs 3 or 2 vs 2 battles.

Then, with another generation (2017), it would be the time again for Super Smash Bros.

The roster could be something like this:

NINTENDO

1) Mario (Super Mario Bros.)

2) Link (The Legend of Zelda)

3) Pikachu (Pokémon)

4) Kirby (Kirby)

5) Donkey Kong (Donkey Kong Country)

6) Samus Aran (Metroid)

7) Fox McCloud (StarFox)

8) Captain Falcon (F-Zero)

9) Lucas/Ness (Mother)

10) Marth/Ike (Fire Emblem)

11) Metaknight (Kirby)

12) Ganondorf (The Legend of Zelda)

13) Bowser (Super Mario Bros.)

14) Wario (Wario Land/Ware)

15) Pit (Kid Icarus)

16) Olimar (Pikmin)

17) Retro character (Ice Climbers/ ROB/ Game & Watch)

SHONEN JUMP

1) Goku (Dragon Ball)

2) Vegeta (Dragon Ball)

3) Naruto Uzumaki (Naruto)

4) Sasuke Uchiha (Naruto)

5) Monkey D.Luffy (One Piece)

6) Black Beard (One Piece)

7) Kenshiro (Fist of the North Star)

8) Raoh (Fist of the North Star)

9) Jotaro Kujo (Jojo´s Bizarre Adventure)

10) Dio Brando (Jojo´s Bizarre Adventure)

11) Ichigo (Bleach)

12) Kenshin Himura (Samurai X)

13) Bobobo (Bobobo-bo)

14) Arale (Dr. Slump)

15) Clare (Claymore)

16) Kinnikuman (Kinnikuman)

17) Kankichi Ryotsu (Kochikame)

What do you think about something like this?

 

[Maripu]

Well Nintendo vs. Shonen Jump sounds a lot worse than a Smash 3DS actually.

 

[Shorts]

Well Nintendo vs. Shonen Jump sounds a lot worse than a Smash 3DS actually.

Not to mention it would never happen. Even if it happened in Japan, shonen jump's Manga/shows are liscensed to sooo many different companies Its crazy! Like Atari, FuniMation ect. Anyways, This is about SSB4 ect. Not really about Nintendo vs series. As interesting as they are tho.

 

[Decote]

Well, I don´t think it is that difficult to gather all those licenses taking as a precedent the two Jump games for Nintendo DS bought by Nintendo.

 

[BirthNote]

That SJ vs Smash thing is too much of a hassle.

 

[ElPanandero]

Who DOESN'T want to smash in 3D???

Me.

Spoiler

10charizards

 

[Shorts]

Well, I don´t think it is that difficult to gather all those licenses taking as a precedent the two Jump games for Nintendo DS bought by Nintendo.

It must be, thats why they didnt produce an eglish version of the Jump Ultimate stars game.

 

[Pieman0920]

The JSS/JUS games were about the manga rather than the anime. Due to this, they were easily made without legal problems, because the rights to the manga was all owned by Shonen Jump's parent company. This of course only allowed characters to show up in their "manga" forms rather than "anime" which generally means the voices and what not, and may have been the reason why the game had an artistic direction based around being like a manga. While these rights were all held by a single comapny in Japan though, the same is not true of America, and likely Europe, as the manga rights were sold off to different companies. Thus, neither of those two games ever made it to, nor would have a chance of making it to, the west due to the rights being spread around.

If Nintendo were to try to make a cross over between its own properties and Jump's it would be limited to a single region, which would be a horribad business decision. Its simply not going to happen.

 

[BBQTV]

earthbound had a problem like that

 

[SmashChu]

You might as well be asking how to improve anyone outside of the top seven or whatever in Brawl. Before any characters get improved, they need to fix those infinites (Falco can juggle with his lasers, chaingrabs, planking, etc.) and do something like the pre-emptive balancing they did in BBrawl.

Jigglypuff was affected greatly by the reduced hitstun in. Without, the combos she needs to work are nonexistent. Then there's the nerf on rest. So hitstun alone could fix up quite a bit.

Here are some others I have in mind for other characters.

Link: He primarily needs an improvement in his recovery. Balanced Brawl fixed this by letting him do his hookshot out of his Up B. They also improved the strength of his arrows and sword attacks which were really underwhelming as the quickest attack he has has only six frames of startup. However, the next game will more than likely have different physics present so they may not be appropriate for him. Same applies for other suggestions from here on.

Zelda: Balanced Brawl helped her by letting her move back and forth with Nayru's Love which helped her pathetic approaching options. Look at the others for other characters here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/OfficerCooper

Samus: More knockback on her projectiles and the ability to feint them (save for bombs) come to mind.

Ness: PSI Magnet is nigh useless when not fighting a character with absorbable projectiles. Which is why I suggest that PSI Magnet reels in the opponent to him leaving them open to an attack along with his projectile absorbing trait intact. The range for this extends forward and behind him and only catches characters on the ground.

Lucas: Has double the range of Ness' PSI Magnet but this range applies only to the front of him.

Peach: A better second jump. Seriously, I couldn't play as her with her like that.

Seeing as most people play this as a 4 player game, I don't think any of those will help.

 

[Big-Cat]

Seeing as most people play this as a 4 player game, I don't think any of those will help.

Care to explain? While I'm at it, I've been trying to figure out how you could even hope to balance a game with four players at a time and items on and I've had no luck. A good chunk of playtesting, besides finding glitches (which they failed at immensely) in the game, is balancing and you need statistics to make your decisions on whether something needs to be changed or not. What if three players gang up on the other, two on two, or whatever? Everything's too inconsistent to say anything unless it's one on one. Obviously, this is a lot different in other genres but that should go without saying.

 

[Shorts]

Care to explain? While I'm at it, I've been trying to figure out how you could even hope to balance a game with four players at a time and items on and I've had no luck. A good chunk of playtesting, besides finding glitches (which they failed at immensely) in the game, is balancing and you need statistics to make your decisions on whether something needs to be changed or not. What if three players gang up on the other, two on two, or whatever? Everything's too inconsistent to say anything unless it's one on one. Obviously, this is a lot different in other genres but that should go without saying.

All I want, is to be able to play as one of my favorite characters and have (realitivly) an equal chance at winning as another person who picked a different character. I understand what you're saying Kuma. I mean Jiggs vs MetaKnight is a whole heck of a lot different than Jiggs vs MetaKnight vs Bowser vs Peach. I understand that to an extent bowser should have an upperhand in some areas in battle over jiggly. But some match ups seem like its almost always going to end the same thats all. It seems ive opened a can of worms that i dont even know where to begin to fix it :S

 

[Big-Cat]

All I want, is to be able to play as one of my favorite characters and have (realitivly) an equal chance at winning as another person who picked a different character. I understand what you're saying Kuma. I mean Jiggs vs MetaKnight is a whole heck of a lot different than Jiggs vs MetaKnight vs Bowser vs Peach. I understand that to an extent bowser should have an upperhand in some areas in battle over jiggly. But some match ups seem like its almost always going to end the same thats all. It seems ive opened a can of worms that i dont even know where to begin to fix it :S

Not necessarily, but I know what you're getting at. Even if Meta Knight has an advantage over Jigglypuff, you should be able to win with her. It won't be easy, but it's not impossible.

 

[Shorts]

Not necessarily, but I know what you're getting at. Even if Meta Knight has an advantage over Jigglypuff, you should be able to win with her. It won't be easy, but it's not impossible.

Do Jigglypuff users make it far in really intense tournaments?

 

[Big-Cat]

Do Jigglypuff users make it far in really intense tournaments?

I never played Brawl competitively despite that I support it (though I do find their stance with MK really stupid). Anyway, she's near the bottom, but she's not part of the Triforce Tier. It's my understanding that anyone below Toon Link on the tier list is considered nonviable.

BTW, I found this in the SF thread in the Light House. It should give you a good chuckle:
http://i50.tinypic.com/55f2j4.jpg

 

[Shorts]

I never played Brawl competitively despite that I support it (though I do find their stance with MK really stupid). Anyway, she's near the bottom, but she's not part of the Triforce Tier. It's my understanding that anyone below Toon Link on the tier list is considered nonviable.

BTW, I found this in the SF thread in the Light House. It should give you a good chuckle:
http://i50.tinypic.com/55f2j4.jpg

Haha that's soo legit A while back i told my brother how lady gaga should have her own part in DisneyLand so she can make it in kingdom hearts X) I love her, and that pic was pure awesomeness. I like Ibiki as well :D

 

[BirthNote]

They should make a character that reverses momentum. This is how it works: This particular character gets hit off the screen. Then, it uses a special move to reverse the direction it was thrown in-but it can only be relative to the amount of distance left in the knockback its expieriencing.

This is an example of how it SHOULDN'T work. This new fighter is at the center of the stage (Final Destination, for demonstration) and on a high damage percent. It recieves a KO blow and flies to the left, but before reaching the death point it does the special. Now, its suddenly back at the center and the knockback is used to push the fighter to the right, and now the newly chosen death. BAD IDEA.

This is how it SHOULD work. The fighter is knocked off the stage, but can't use the special yet because of hitstun. When that wears off, the fighter uses the remainder of the attack's knockback to give it momentum to return. It DOESN'T reappear at the point it was hit at only to be magically flung in the opposite direction.

Simplified: Fighter gets hit, uses the remainder of the attack's knockback to reverse momentum and make a return easier. RELATIVE TO THE REMAINDER OF THE OFFENSIVE FORCE.

 

[Big-Cat]

Sounds like DI made complex.

 

[BirthNote]

Good point, I realized after posting. I can't think of any character that could have that move, but its just an idea I wanted to throw in. It can be a neutral special or something.

 

[BBQTV]

anyone below Toon Link on the tier list is considered nonviable.

i lost mad respect for you . kuma your an idiot

 

[SmashChu]

Care to explain?

What good does being able to move with Nyrul's Love do?
Why does Samus need to make her charge shot. Why doesn't she just shoot it?

Do you really need mind games where there are three other people. What about combos, when another player can screw up your combos?

While I'm at it, I've been trying to figure out how you could even hope to balance a game with four players at a time and items on and I've had no luck. A good chunk of playtesting, besides finding glitches (which they failed at immensely) in the game, is balancing and you need statistics to make your decisions on whether something needs to be changed or not. What if three players gang up on the other, two on two, or whatever? Everything's too inconsistent to say anything unless it's one on one. Obviously, this is a lot different in other genres but that should go without saying.

How are you going to get a statistic for a game in beta?

I think this is more you don't know jack about 4vs but think you do.

 

[Shorts]

i lost mad respect for you . kuma your an idiot

Really? Are you kidding me?! You lost respect for a person because they say something you dont agree with on a flippin videogame? Tsk tsk.


anyways, results from my poll,

http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/487934/results

feel free to start a topic based off of this

 

[Big-Cat]

i lost mad respect for you . kuma your an idiot

Of course, I could be wrong. All I know is that like half the roster is not viable for competitive play.

What good does being able to move with Nyrul's Love do?
Why does Samus need to make her charge shot. Why doesn't she just shoot it?

1. Zelda can get in safely which is also useful as a get off me move if she's being ganged up on by three other players.
2. Because pressing B for an easy KO would be too good.

Do you really need mind games where there are three other people. What about combos, when another player can screw up your combos?

I believe so. As for combos, why the heck were you able to do combos in the first two games?

How are you going to get a statistic for a game in beta?

You play matches several times. Take into account the ratio of wins for both characters such as it being 6:4, 5:5, 7:3, whatever. Find what it is that makes these matchup ratios the way they are and is it okay or do some adjustments need to be made? I haven't gotten into videogame design just yet, but these seem like basic things any developer would do. It's the same thing as doing research when creating new products. Statistics may not be the best word as it's only a part of the play testing process. If I can get my internship at EA later this year, maybe I'll find out more about the process.

I think this is more you don't know jack about 4vs but think you do.

Do you know anymore than I do? And no, that does not mean just playing 4vs. I'm not really claiming to know much about them.

 

[Ievan_Polkka]

Why does Samus need to make her charge shot. Why doesn't she just shoot it?

Seriously? That'd be way too good for helping an allied G&W, Ness, or Lucas, standing at the edge of the stage using spamming it to win stock matches, and everything else, really. If you really think it needs to be improved, I think a better solution would be to allow her to move while charging it up, like she can in so many metroid games.

And, to balance 4 player FFA, run a bunch of test matches, and see which characters get the most KOs, fewest falls, etc., and use that to determine how good each of them are. Only big problem is you need 4 people who know how to play really, really, really well, which is too difficult for a game still in testing, unless they spend a very long time on it.

 

[BBQTV]

kuma thats kinda true and smashchu is being dumb again. why would you not charge and just shoot? that is worse then what kuma said. im not sure if you know this but charging it makes it stronger. never have i seen no one charge it and just shoot not evev casual players do that

 

[Big-Cat]

kuma thats kinda true and smashchu is being dumb again. why would you not charge and just shoot? that is worse then what kuma said. im not sure if you know this but charging it makes it stronger. never have i seen no one charge it and just shoot not evev casual players do that

How was what I said bad?

 

[BBQTV]

How was what I said bad?

how was it not is the real question

 

[Big-Cat]

how was it not is the real question

Only a foolish fool would be so foolish to raise even more foolish questions.

 

[BBQTV]

Only a foolish fool would be so foolish to raise even more foolish questions.

this foolishly foolish tom foolery must foolishly come to a foolishly foolish edd

 

[Fatmanonice]

Seriously? That'd be way too good for helping an allied G&W, Ness, or Lucas, standing at the edge of the stage using spamming it to win stock matches, and everything else, really. If you really think it needs to be improved, I think a better solution would be to allow her to move while charging it up, like she can in so many metroid games.

And, to balance 4 player FFA, run a bunch of test matches, and see which characters get the most KOs, fewest falls, etc., and use that to determine how good each of them are. Only big problem is you need 4 people who know how to play really, really, really well, which is too difficult for a game still in testing, unless they spend a very long time on it.

That's sort of the problem though, balancing people for both 4 player matches and 2 player matches is virtually impossible because of the different factors that come into play during each scenario. As hacking projects have shown, going for complete balance in any one scenario not only takes a lot of time but it also makes the game really boring.

 

[Big-Cat]

this foolishly foolish tom foolery must foolishly come to a foolishly foolish edd

Says the foolish fool who started all this foolish tom foolery. Now, have you been swimming lately?

 

[Big-Cat]

That's sort of the problem though, balancing people for both 4 player matches and 2 player matches is virtually impossible because of the different factors that come into play during each scenario. As hacking projects have shown, going for complete balance in any one scenario not only takes a lot of time but it also makes the game really boring.

Why would you say that it's boring? Sure, if they all play the same, it's boring. Do you mean how it doesn't seem that the characters don't have some really good thing for each of them because that's not always the case. That really good thing could just be hard to do.

 

[Pieman0920]

I thought most people came to the conclusion that balancing for 2 player fights would probably be the best. In most cases, people don't really player 4 player (or 3 player) matches that competitively, and thus there is a smaller demand for actually trying to balance everything. Most competative Smash though is 1 v 1, so it would make more sense just to focus on that. Plus, it would take a lot more time and effort to really try to get 2 v 2 matches balanced up.

 

[ElPanandero]

I agree with Pieman, and also If you balance moves for 1 V 1 there's less likely to be huge gaping flaws in any character's moveset when they enter a multi-man fight. If they had 1 V 1 tested Metaknight for balance and fixed him, he wouldn't be any less viable in FFA.